MBB: Duke 76, Pitt 47 Post-game Thread

[BandAlum83]

Pretty good discussion of that issue in the Cooper goat dunk thread. Here is some of it.

"His initial couple of tips to the floor are him gaining control of the ball, technically not dribbling. "

I suppose this is up for interpretation by the refs, and in a high-level D! game in the current age, the refs will err on a more liberal evaluation and let them play on, as someone up thread pointed out. (I hadn't read that yet when I posted my initial question.

As for me, it seemed he had control and wasn't still gaining control. Cooper is all-world, and he clearly thought he was still gaining control and would know not to double dribble the ball. For this alone, I figure it was a good no-call by the ref.

 

[kshepinthehouse]

"His initial couple of tips to the floor are him gaining control of the ball, technically not dribbling. "

I suppose this is up for interpretation by the refs, and in a high-level D! game in the current age, the refs will err on a more liberal evaluation and let them play on, as someone up thread pointed out. (I hadn't read that yet when I posted my initial question.

As for me, it seemed he had control and wasn't still gaining control. Cooper is all-world, and he clearly thought he was still gaining control and would know not to double dribble the ball. For this alone, I figure it was a good no-call by the ref.

He tipped the ball away, grabbed it with two hands. And then started dribbling. Correct. It was a good no call.

 

[bshrader]

"His initial couple of tips to the floor are him gaining control of the ball, technically not dribbling. "

I suppose this is up for interpretation by the refs, and in a high-level D! game in the current age, the refs will err on a more liberal evaluation and let them play on, as someone up thread pointed out. (I hadn't read that yet when I posted my initial question.

As for me, it seemed he had control and wasn't still gaining control. Cooper is all-world, and he clearly thought he was still gaining control and would know not to double dribble the ball. For this alone, I figure it was a good no-call by the ref.

Just to throw my referee perspective into the ring here, it might help to think of the play this way:

This play initiated from a pass from the opponent. Pittsburgh is literally in team-control until Cooper gains control of this ball. For me, that occurs once he placed two hands on the ball, not when he bats away the pass from an opponent. What I do think is funny about this play is, while most everyone's point of contention is if the initial play by Cooper constitutes a dribble, but its the play immediately after he gains possession that I find amusing. He pretty clearly travels! Lol

Now again, practical application means much more here in terms of flow and rhythm of the game, so am I whistling it in a game? Absolutely not. But if we're just dissecting by letter of the rule for the sake of some fun, then yea, he travels after gaining possession with 2 hands.

 

[BandAlum83]

Just to throw my referee perspective into the ring here, it might help to think of the play this way:

This play initiated from a pass from the opponent. Pittsburgh is literally in team-control until Cooper gains control of this ball. For me, that occurs once he placed two hands on the ball, not when he bats away the pass from an opponent. What I do think is funny about this play is, while most everyone's point of contention is if the initial play by Cooper constitutes a dribble, but its the play immediately after he gains possession that I find amusing. He pretty clearly travels! Lol

Now again, practical application means much more here in terms of flow and rhythm of the game, so am I whistling it in a game? Absolutely not. But if we're just dissecting by letter of the rule for the sake of some fun, then yea, he travels after gaining possession with 2 hands.

Because he loses his(a) pivot foot before the ball loses contact with both hands? I give an alternative "a" pivot foot because i am unsure the timing of collection and what foot would actually be a pivot foot. It's like when a player is holding a ball and then decides to move and dribble at the same time. Sometimes the ref call a travel. the timing on that is so hard for me to see on screen, and probably live in stadium as well. I'm impressed the refs can actually catch it, but it usually looks to close to call by my judgement.

 

[chrishoke]

You peeps sure know how to take the fun out of a game.

 

[SkyBrickey]

I agree with you both. Brown is subbing for Man-Man most of the time, Gillis is subbing for Cooper most of the time. Caleb is subbing for Tyrese and Sion most of the time. Isaiah is subbing for Kon and one of the guards. I've changed my mind on Gillis. With the way he's playing, I think he might give Kon a rest once in a while. The way the starters are performing, I don't think the bench will get much run in close games. In the others, I think the bench will see the court more. That said, the ACC schedule should provide the bench some valuable minutes. Unless of course, one of the of the opposing players jumps on our scorers table.

GoDuke!

I am probably in the minority here, but I would rather see Gillis playing both Cooper and Kon's backup minutes and Isaiah relegated to the bench during highly competitive games. An 8-man rotation where Evans only plays if both Kon and Mason are missing a lot of wide open shots early and we need a spark.

The advanced analytics love Mason because he defends, he screens, and more and more lately he's scoring efficiently. I'd rather see those steady minutes in the game than the highly-variable Evans.

 

[kshepinthehouse]

I am probably in the minority here, but I would rather see Gillis playing both Cooper and Kon's backup minutes and Isaiah relegated to the bench during highly competitive games. An 8-man rotation where Evans only plays if both Kon and Mason are missing a lot of wide open shots early and we need a spark.

The advanced analytics love Mason because he defends, he screens, and more and more lately he's scoring efficiently. I'd rather see those steady minutes in the game than the highly-variable Evans.

If you think this than you would probably want Foster to sit and Gillis to take those minutes as well. At least Evans can get hot from 3. If he’s not hot then sit him.

 

[g111m1c]

Regarding our ability to close out games, I would feel a lot better if Cooper weren't still losing the ball while spinning in the lane. I thought for a while he had cured that problem but now it's back. Otherwise, I agree that Duke is not the same team as it was in November.

The probability of successfully executing the spin move AND subsequently hitting the shot seems low...maybe 30% or less? It's something that needs to be coached out of his repertoire for now. It's just...egh. Just stop.

 

[SkyBrickey]

If you think this than you would probably want Foster to sit and Gillis to take those minutes as well. At least Evans can get hot from 3. If he’s not hot then sit him.

Gillis is a 3&D guy. Foster is a guard who is a primary ball handler.

So no, I don't want Gillis subbing in for James or Proctor. And neither does Jon.

 

[stevoflurane]

The probability of successfully executing the spin move AND subsequently hitting the shot seems low...maybe 30% or less? It's something that needs to be coached out of his repertoire for now. It's just...egh. Just stop.

In my head, those are Cooper’s “heat check” type moments. In both situations against SMU and Pitt he had a couple of turnovers in a row when the game was just about to be a blowout. They were more frustrating to us as fans but I’m thinking Cooper is thinking “let me see if I can do this or that move in a game.” And he’s been unsuccessful so far. And at the end of the day they didn’t affect the outcome of the game. My bet is that you wouldn’t see that type of move from him in a closer contest—unless he starts to perfect it after trying in a lower risk situation.

 

[MChambers]

Gillis is a 3&D guy. Foster is a guard who is a primary ball handler.

So no, I don't want Gillis subbing in for James or Proctor. And neither does Jon.

Except that Duke has had Gillis in with James or Proctor as the one guard, with Flagg, Knueppel, and Brown and Maluach. Not a lot, according to CBBAnalytics.com, but some.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Except that Duke has had Gillis in with James or Proctor as the one guard, with Flagg, Knueppel, and Brown and Maluach. Not a lot, according to CBBAnalytics.com, but some.

Sure, we've played dozens of lineups during experimentation phase and garbage time. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'll be shocked if we see Gillis in at one of the two guard spots during COMPETITIVE games. That's really what we're debating...

Thise guard minutes will go to James/Proctor/Foster and maybe some to Evans.

 

[kshepinthehouse]

Sure, we've played dozens of lineups during experimentation phase and garbage time. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'll be shocked if we see Gillis in at one of the two guard spots during COMPETITIVE games. That's really what we're debating...

Thise guard minutes will go to James/Proctor/Foster and maybe some to Evans.

Kon can’t play guard?

 

[SkyBrickey]

Kon can’t play guard?

So fun how you're challenging my every post, Shep. I guess you're still bent out of shape about me defending Foster?

No, Kon does not play guard. He plays the 3. And we have a top 10 offense in the country so, no, Jon will NOT be moving Kon to guard.

Any other questions?

 

[kshepinthehouse]

So fun how you're challenging my every post, Shep. I guess you're still bent out of shape about me defending Foster?

No, Kon does not play guard. He plays the 3. And we have a top 10 offense in the country so, no, Jon will NOT be moving Kon to guard.

Any other questions?

You taking it personally has nothing to do with me.

Kon is basically a guard. Whats the difference in the 2 and the 3 in this system. Kon has a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Kon, Proctor, and James are pretty much interchangeable. Kon has more than enough skill to play the 2. As I stated previously, this is the most versatile team I remember us having.

By the way, ESPN lists him as a guard. He was also listed as a guard on the Pitt TV broadcast.

 

[SkyBrickey]

You taking it personally has nothing to do with me.

Kon is basically a guard. Whats the difference in the 2 and the 3 in this system. Kon has a 3 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Kon, Proctor, and James are pretty much interchangeable. Kon has more than enough skill to play the 2. As I stated previously, this is the most versatile team I remember us having.

By the way, ESPN lists him as a guard. He was also listed as a guard on the Pitt TV broadcast.

What are you even debating? Kon has played the same position all season long. I'll let you move labels around on different players and have the debate with yourself. Have fun!

 

[mkirsh]

Class of 97 here saying hold my beer. 95 got a title. 96 and 97 got to see us get to the finals in 94 (To heck with you, Scotty Thurman). 96 got a small bounce back their senior year. 97 got more of a recovery until a disappointing tournament. 98 had a great season until Wayne Turner. 98 was the only class in a ridiculously long stretch that did not get a final four - I believe every class from 1986-2007 got a final four except 1998 got a final four.

Correct. No FFs for the classes of 98, 2008, 2009, 2014, 2019, 2020, 2021. It’s actually pretty insane it’s just that group. And some of us 98s snuck back to campus for the 99 final four (men’s and women’s) but our sour luck was too much to overcome.

 

[-jk]

Easy, folks!

-jk

 

[g111m1c]

My gut is telling me that our defensive success, especially recently, can be attributed in part to a defensive philosophy that is focused on strong positional defense and making it tough for shooters to shoot and for highly contested drives. While this may seem obvious, I think the nuance here is not necessarily playing for steals, allowing us to stay in position and potentially also commit fewer fouls.

I see the “awful” steal% and “outstanding” ft rate and wonder if there might be something to this.

Make the opponent work on offense. Wear them down without fouling. Dare them to drive against really good perimeter defenders (Tyrese and Sion) and, if they manage to do that, then try to finish against a set of outstanding interior defenders in ManMan, Cooper, and Maliq (with the disclaimer that Maliq isn’t really a rim protector).

Commenting on my own post after given it more thought. I wonder whether this approach also has the added benefit of helping our players conserve energy. Debatable.

Also wonder whether this approach also reduces chances of injuries. Perhaps also debatable.

Thinking out loud and would welcome the thoughts of others.

 

[jv001]

If you think this than you would probably want Foster to sit and Gillis to take those minutes as well. At least Evans can get hot from 3. If he’s not hot then sit him.

Duke doesn't beat Auburn if Isaiah doesn't play in that competitive game. From what I've read from some wise posters, Foster is the player that's not contributing much. His defense is poor, his ball handling consists of dribble, dribble dribble and his shooting is poor. He does occasionally drive the lane and make a basket. For a ball handler, he is not assisting many baskets. If he's in the game at the end of close games, I don't trust his FT shooting. In the last game, Evans and Caleb didn't play well. The couple of games prior, I thought Caleb might have turned the corner and was on his way to really helping the team. Jon has clearly seen how poorly Caleb has played, because he's lost his starting position and was the 8th or 9th man in the rotation.

GoDuke!