MBB: Duke 76, Pitt 47 Post-game Thread

[bshrader]

Because he loses his(a) pivot foot before the ball loses contact with both hands? I give an alternative "a" pivot foot because i am unsure the timing of collection and what foot would actually be a pivot foot. It's like when a player is holding a ball and then decides to move and dribble at the same time. Sometimes the ref call a travel. the timing on that is so hard for me to see on screen, and probably live in stadium as well. I'm impressed the refs can actually catch it, but it usually looks to close to call by my judgement.

So watching the play with the help of super slo-mo replay (which of course officials do not have at their disposal on a play like this), I would call his right foot the pivot foot. He must release the ball to begin a dribble before that foot is lifted, and with the help of slo-mo replay you can see he hasn't released the ball when that right foot has clearly come off of the court.

Again though, this is all for fun discussion. As I stated previously, no high level D1 official is going to call this a travel, and then expect to continue receiving high level D1 assignments. As an official, it is imperative you know the rules better than anyone on the court. That's in your control and that's your job, but even more importantly is the practical application of those rules and knowing how/when to apply them.

So, in summary, is this a travel? Yes. Would I call this a travel in a game situation such as this? NOOOOOOOO!

Something else I will add as an official, the actual speed of the game and the pace at which it's played...television does it no justice. The pace of the game is fast in DII (where I officiate), and it's even faster at the DI level.

 

[bluedevilwildcats]

Duke doesn't beat Auburn if Isaiah doesn't play in that competitive game. From what I've read from some wise posters, Foster is the player that's not contributing much. His defense is poor, his ball handling consists of dribble, dribble dribble and his shooting is poor. He does occasionally drive the lane and make a basket. For a ball handler, he is not assisting many baskets. If he's in the game at the end of close games, I don't trust his FT shooting. In the last game, Evans and Caleb didn't play well. The couple of games prior, I thought Caleb might have turned the corner and was on his way to really helping the team. Jon has clearly seen how poorly Caleb has played, because he's lost his starting position and was the 8th or 9th man in the rotation.

GoDuke!

Yeah, Caleb is performing the worst by far of anyone in the rotation. I imagine Jon said good things this past offseason to Caleb about his potential to earn minutes this year, which might explain the longer leash Caleb has been given despite this level of performance. Personally I'd like to see Evans or even Harris fed more of Caleb's minutes. While it's true that he occasionally does nice things on offense, his defense is so poor that it more than offsets it.

 

[nmduke2001]

Wow, what a photo! Attribution?

Sorry, no idea. It was on social media without being attributed to anyone.

 

[azzefkram]

Sure, we've played dozens of lineups during experimentation phase and garbage time. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'll be shocked if we see Gillis in at one of the two guard spots during COMPETITIVE games. That's really what we're debating...

Thise guard minutes will go to James/Proctor/Foster and maybe some to Evans.

Using Kenpom's AB games as a definition for competitive, Mason has played 87 minutes overall and 23 minutes with Kon and Cooper on the floor. This is a slightly higher percentage than we've seen in all games. Aside from Khaman/Maliq, the substitution patterns are not as rigid as you think.

Why would Jon have Mason, Kon, and Cooper in during garbage time?

 

[mkirsh]

So watching the play with the help of super slo-mo replay (which of course officials do not have at their disposal on a play like this), I would call his right foot the pivot foot. He must release the ball to begin a dribble before that foot is lifted, and with the help of slo-mo replay you can see he hasn't released the ball when that right foot has clearly come off of the court.

Again though, this is all for fun discussion. As I stated previously, no high level D1 official is going to call this a travel, and then expect to continue receiving high level D1 assignments. As an official, it is imperative you know the rules better than anyone on the court. That's in your control and that's your job, but even more importantly is the practical application of those rules and knowing how/when to apply them.

So, in summary, is this a travel? Yes. Would I call this a travel in a game situation such as this? NOOOOOOOO!

Something else I will add as an official, the actual speed of the game and the pace at which it's played...television does it no justice. The pace of the game is fast in DII (where I officiate), and it's even faster at the DI level.

Can I get your expert opinion on 3 other calls?

At the 9:50 mark in the first half, Maluach catches the ball alone under the basket with both feet on the floor, hops a full foot forward without a dribble landing on both feet again, and then dunks the ball. The official has an unobstructed view 5 feet away - why was this not a travel?

A few plays later at the 7:07 mark a Pitt player is dribbling above the top of the key from right to left when he puts his hand under the ball, takes 3 full steps, and then continues to dribble, in plain sight of 2 refs and the Duke bench (which I'm surprised didn't jump up screaming). Why was this not a carry/travel? Are the officials giving more leeway when it's not creating "advantage" on a drive past a defender?

Lastly, not a specific play but the flag dunk is an example - have the rules changed over time on control/first dribble? When I played back in the day if a pass came to a player and they knocked it to the floor with one hand then collected it with 2 hands after the bounce, that was considered a dribble and the player could not put the ball on the floor again. But I see this play all the time in the NBA and college and the player is allowed to dribble. When did this change?

Thanks for indulging me.

 

[Maged]

Per Mkirsh's last question, I have never figured out the rule about someone drops the ball when they receive a pass, or dribbling, then catches the ball, then starts dribbling again. Sometimes it's called a travel, sometimes not. Is there a hard and fast rule, or not?

 

[SkyBrickey]

Using Kenpom's AB games as a definition for competitive, Mason has played 87 minutes overall and 23 minutes with Kon and Cooper on the floor. This is a slightly higher percentage than we've seen in all games. Aside from Khaman/Maliq, the substitution patterns are not as rigid as you think.

Why would Jon have Mason, Kon, and Cooper in during garbage time?

If you read my post again, you'll see I'm calling those 23 minutes part of the experimentation phase. We've probably seen Maliq and Khaman on the floor together for that many minutes too.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I expect to see a lot fewer lineup combinations the rest of the way during competitive games. It's related closely to that maxim that coaches tend to shorten their rotations late in the year.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Per Mkirsh's last question, I have never figured out the rule about someone drops the ball when they receive a pass, or dribbling, then catches the ball, then starts dribbling again. Sometimes it's called a travel, sometimes not. Is there a hard and fast rule, or not?

When you are first gaining control of the ball, you can bounce it to gain control, catch it, and then still have the ability to dribble. It's a judgement call by the ref whether the initial bounce or bounces were gaining control or tge player using up his dribble.

I do believe some of these happening in today's game would have been called double dribbles 20-30 years ago.

 

[Indoor66]

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By

When you are first gaining control of the ball, you can bounce it to gain control, catch it, and then still have the ability to dribble. It's a judgement call by the ref whether the initial bounce or bounces were gaining control or tge player using up his dribble.

I do believe some of these happening in today's game would have been called double dribbles 20-30 years ago.

I do believe you are correct on the 2
O-30 years ago.

 

[bshrader]

Can I get your expert opinion on 3 other calls?

At the 9:50 mark in the first half, Maluach catches the ball alone under the basket with both feet on the floor, hops a full foot forward without a dribble landing on both feet again, and then dunks the ball. The official has an unobstructed view 5 feet away - why was this not a travel?

A few plays later at the 7:07 mark a Pitt player is dribbling above the top of the key from right to left when he puts his hand under the ball, takes 3 full steps, and then continues to dribble, in plain sight of 2 refs and the Duke bench (which I'm surprised didn't jump up screaming). Why was this not a carry/travel? Are the officials giving more leeway when it's not creating "advantage" on a drive past a defender?

Lastly, not a specific play but the flag dunk is an example - have the rules changed over time on control/first dribble? When I played back in the day if a pass came to a player and they knocked it to the floor with one hand then collected it with 2 hands after the bounce, that was considered a dribble and the player could not put the ball on the floor again. But I see this play all the time in the NBA and college and the player is allowed to dribble. When did this change?

Thanks for indulging me.

I went back and watched these plays, so I'll start with the first.

I've never been a huge Lee Cassell (he's the official on the baseline in this play, or the "lead"), but I love what he does here. So Maluach does receive this pass and takes a little hop afterward. However, in between that the Pitt defender comes through with contact on Maluach's arms. I believe what Cassell was doing here is applying a little bit of an advantage and, instead of whistling the reach in, letting Maluach finish the play with a dunk. You'd rather have the 2 points than the ball OOB anyways.

In the second play, it's exactly what you said. The Pitt player isn't creating an advantage for himself there, so the officials will pass on it. If he's using that carry to break down a defender, then that's when you'll see most officials call that.

And on the Flagg play, officials are just more lenient now on what constitutes a dribble, and I'm a fan of it. Just to help the rhythm and flow of the game.

Glad to provide some perspective as an official, although I dont do quite the level that you see on television! I'm a DII official.

 

[DukieInBrasil]

Can I get your expert opinion on 3 other calls?

At the 9:50 mark in the first half, Maluach catches the ball alone under the basket with both feet on the floor, hops a full foot forward without a dribble landing on both feet again, and then dunks the ball. The official has an unobstructed view 5 feet away - why was this not a travel?

.....

Thanks for indulging me.

I noticed this during the game as well, and i just watched the replay, and from what i could see is that as Khaman was catching it, a Pitt player (Burton?) comes thru, swipes at the ball and either hits Khaman's arm or hits the ball (or both) causing Maluah to lose control of the ball briefly while/before the 2nd jump stop and then the dunk. Maybe the ref saw the foul and decided not to blow the whistle b/c he then dunked it, or maybe Khaman really did lose control of the ball ever so briefly, which would have allowed for the steps.

 

[SkyBrickey]

I went back and watched these plays, so I'll start with the first.

I've never been a huge Lee Cassell (he's the official on the baseline in this play, or the "lead"), but I love what he does here. So Maluach does receive this pass and takes a little hop afterward. However, in between that the Pitt defender comes through with contact on Maluach's arms. I believe what Cassell was doing here is applying a little bit of an advantage and, instead of whistling the reach in, letting Maluach finish the play with a dunk. You'd rather have the 2 points than the ball OOB anyways.

In the second play, it's exactly what you said. The Pitt player isn't creating an advantage for himself there, so the officials will pass on it. If he's using that carry to break down a defender, then that's when you'll see most officials call that.

And on the Flagg play, officials are just more lenient now on what constitutes a dribble, and I'm a fan of it. Just to help the rhythm and flow of the game.

Glad to provide some perspective as an official, although I dont do quite the level that you see on television! I'm a DII official.

Mr Ref, I'd love to hit you up for one...

I'm seeing a new scoring move the past few years I never used to see and that looks like a walk to me. Players, usually a guard, establish position in the paint after losing their dribble. They then take a long stride to create separation and shoot off that foot.

I don't think it's after a jump stop either. I think they are leaving their pivot foot behind to create space and stride off the other foot. I always thought that was an automatic walk. Was there a rule change to allow this? It creates a real advantage for the offensive player... Thanks!

 

[Lurkingdukedog]

Duke doesn't beat Auburn if Isaiah doesn't play in that competitive game. From what I've read from some wise posters, Foster is the player that's not contributing much. His defense is poor, his ball handling consists of dribble, dribble dribble and his shooting is poor. He does occasionally drive the lane and make a basket. For a ball handler, he is not assisting many baskets. If he's in the game at the end of close games, I don't trust his FT shooting. In the last game, Evans and Caleb didn't play well. The couple of games prior, I thought Caleb might have turned the corner and was on his way to really helping the team. Jon has clearly seen how poorly Caleb has played, because he's lost his starting position and was the 8th or 9th man in the rotation.

GoDuke!

This is important. I think it started at the loss at Arkansas and continued with the loss at Georgia Tech.

 

[g111m1c]

Mr Ref, I'd love to hit you up for one...

I'm seeing a new scoring move the past few years I never used to see and that looks like a walk to me. Players, usually a guard, establish position in the paint after losing their dribble. They then take a long stride to create separation and shoot off that foot.

I don't think it's after a jump stop either. I think they are leaving their pivot foot behind to create space and stride off the other foot. I always thought that was an automatic walk. Was there a rule change to allow this? It creates a real advantage for the offensive player... Thanks!

I’ve noticed this, too. I contend that once that pivot foot leaves the floor, that would be a travel, even if you’re jumping from the opposite foot.

 

[azzefkram]

If you read my post again, you'll see I'm calling those 23 minutes part of the experimentation phase. We've probably seen Maliq and Khaman on the floor together for that many minutes too.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I expect to see a lot fewer lineup combinations the rest of the way during competitive games. It's related closely to that maxim that coaches tend to shorten their rotations late in the year.

Maliq and Khaman haven't played together. Pat and Maliq have played together (~3 minutes). It's almost like Jon is taunting me.

Maybe you are correct about the experimentation, but Kon, Cooper and Mason played together in the SMU game so I think it may be more of a thing than you are giving it credit for.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Maliq and Khaman haven't played together. Pat and Maliq have played together (~3 minutes). It's almost like Jon is taunting me.

Maybe you are correct about the experimentation, but Kon, Cooper and Mason played together in the SMU game so I think it may be more of a thing than you are giving it credit for.

You may be right... Didn't realize that combo was on the floor together.

 

[bshrader]

Mr Ref, I'd love to hit you up for one...

I'm seeing a new scoring move the past few years I never used to see and that looks like a walk to me. Players, usually a guard, establish position in the paint after losing their dribble. They then take a long stride to create separation and shoot off that foot.

I don't think it's after a jump stop either. I think they are leaving their pivot foot behind to create space and stride off the other foot. I always thought that was an automatic walk. Was there a rule change to allow this? It creates a real advantage for the offensive player... Thanks!

I believe I know the kind of move you're referring to. It looks funky, but if its the play I'm thinking of, it's almost like a step through after the dribble has been picked up.

It's actually not a travel until the pivot foot is lifted AND returns to the floor, much like a jump shot. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen Kon use this move quite a few times this year.

 

[JayWill]

bschrader, I really appreciate your insights on reffing. If it's not a burden, please keep them coming.

 

[sagegrouse]

If you read my post again, you'll see I'm calling those 23 minutes part of the experimentation phase. We've probably seen Maliq and Khaman on the floor together for that many minutes too.

Maybe I'm wrong. But I expect to see a lot fewer lineup combinations the rest of the way during competitive games. It's related closely to that maxim that coaches tend to shorten their rotations late in the year.

Nine-man rotation, I say. "Comptitive games" being different is questionable. Pitt was a "get-even" game, IMHO , where H is for Happy.

 

[rsvman]

I agree with others that the calling of double-dribble has changed drastically. When I played, if you were trying to establish possession and at the end dribbled and caught the ball with both hands, you were definitely not allowed to dribble. It would result in an immediate whistle.

Over at least the past decade, if not more, this has not been called way more often than it is called. In fact, it is virtually never called. I assumed that maybe the rule had changed. I did a little reffing in municipal league games back in the day and we would have called all such instances as double-dribble.