Pat Ngongba "out indefinitely," in a boot

OZZIE4DUKE said:
Y'all are forgetting that Stanly Borden is still on the team. There's our extra backup big man!
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You mean the 7'0" Stanley Borden who, as a fourth-year senior, has accumulated a grand total of 2 minutes played (3, if you round by season), none of those minutes coming in his junior year last season? That Stanley Borden?
 
SkyBrickey said:
Feel bad for Pat. Hope it's not too serious and he makes it back this season. I won't reopen the debate but, no, I don't think it really changes anything with the team.

And I think I've heard two CBB analysts plus JE, just this week, call for some Cooper-at-the-5 small ball. To me that's fun to imagine, but I'd be surprised if Jon burns any cycles installing that unless Man Man or Maliq go down with an injury.
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Are we certain that SkyB and Shane Stant don't know each other? :unsure:
 
I know this will probably be another thread killer, but isn’t it time for some Stanley Borden! Kid is +7 foot and has been playing, albeit in practice, for three years. Maybe, just maybe, he’s the secret weapon at the five
 
Get well soon, Pat.

I think some are really underestimating how good Cooper and Maliq will be playing together.

The quickness and skill set advantage will be huge. They are both elite defenders. They should be two of the most efficient scorers at the rim in the ACC and maybe the country. And both love to get out and run on the break.

Will they give up a few offensive rebounds over the top? Sure. But if they're literally winning on every other aspect of the game, it's big advantage Duke.
 
Size is both a strength this year, with no scholarship player shorter than 6'5" (that runt Caleb Foster), and on the top end a weakness, with only two possible rotation players over 6'10" (Maluach and Big Pat, no offense to Borden). As others have pointed out, Duke has a plethora of 6'9" ish dudes who can play up defensively if necessary (and I suspect they may have done that even with a healthy Ngongba), but this does throw a little water on the ability to throw out lineups that will overwhelm the competition with size 1 through 5, and presents a problem if faced with an opponent that can throw out a twin towers type lineup (I can't think of anyone fitting that description at the moment but haven't pored over opposing rosters).
 
azzefkram said:
I will dissent to your dissent (redissent?). Pat's unavailability reduces Duke's depth at the 5 and the 4. Man-Man will probably be minutes challenged early in the season. The minutes Maliq will now need to cover at the 5 are minutes he won't be available for the 4. Duke is now weaker in the frontcourt. Can Mason help with that? I'm not as convinced as SD8. Mason was playing the 4 with Edey at the 5. That is significantly different than Mason and Maliq at the 4 and 5. Edey covered much of Mason's weaknesses (Mason is a dreadful rebounder for a 4). Maliq is not a good rebounder for a 5.

This puts a pretty big dent in Duke's chances of having an elite defense.
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Nah. I really didn’t think Pat was gonna play much this year anyway. He was an insurance policy.
 
crote said:
presents a problem if faced with an opponent that can throw out a twin towers type lineup (I can't think of anyone fitting that description at the moment but haven't pored over opposing rosters).
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Poking around a bit, one obvious candidate for this scenario is the Kentucky game. The Wildcat's projected starting lineup includes Amari Williams (7'0", 262) and Andrew Carr (6'11", 235), both 5th year players. Say Khaman is unavailable because of foul trouble or whatever other reason. Duke would have to guard those guys with two smaller players, say Coop and Maliq, either of whom would be giving up inches and pounds (Williams has three inches and 40 pounds on Maliq, 60 pounds on Cooper). Not ideal.

The flip side is that Duke's excellent positional size down the roster prevents a cascade of mismatches if the nominal 3 and 4 have to play up a position. With Kentucky, 6'7" three point ace Koby Brea will be running around. Ideally you might shut him down with Flagg, but he's busy guarding Carr in this scenario. But no problem: Duke can throw any number of other big bodies at him (say Gillis or Tyrese) and still enjoy have a size advantage in the remaining two spots (Foster, K2, Evans, and Sion all have a good size advantage over UK's remaining guards).

Basically, lack of top end size could result in some unfavorable mismatches in the post, but that should be mitigated by Duke's overall length, which is excellent.
 
crote said:
Poking around a bit, one obvious candidate for this scenario is the Kentucky game. The Wildcat's projected starting lineup includes Amari Williams (7'0", 262) and Andrew Carr (6'11", 235), both 5th year players. Say Khaman is unavailable because of foul trouble or whatever other reason. Duke would have to guard those guys with two smaller players, say Coop and Maliq, either of whom would be giving up inches and pounds (Williams has three inches and 40 pounds on Maliq, 60 pounds on Cooper). Not ideal.

The flip side is that Duke's excellent positional size down the roster prevents a cascade of mismatches if the nominal 3 and 4 have to play up a position. With Kentucky, 6'7" three point ace Koby Brea will be running around. Ideally you might shut him down with Flagg, but he's busy guarding Carr in this scenario. But no problem: Duke can throw any number of other big bodies at him (say Gillis or Tyrese) and still enjoy have a size advantage in the remaining two spots (Foster, K2, Evans, and Sion all have a good size advantage over UK's remaining guards).

Basically, lack of top end size could result in some unfavorable mismatches in the post, but that should be mitigated by Duke's overall length, which is excellent.
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Interesting stuff. This could be a concern if our depth at the 4/5 gets depleted or played off the court, but wouldn’t the chess match be working to exploit mismatches the other way? Perhaps Kentucky’s big bodies can work within a defensive scheme that holds up, but if Duke’s offense can combine perimeter shooting and drives/ball movement that force mismatches, maybe we can force some of the height off the floor, whether through defensive substitutions or foul trouble.
 
cato said:
Interesting stuff. This could be a concern if our depth at the 4/5 gets depleted or played off the court, but wouldn’t the chess match be working to exploit mismatches the other way? Perhaps Kentucky’s big bodies can work within a defensive scheme that holds up, but if Duke’s offense can combine perimeter shooting and drives/ball movement that force mismatches, maybe we can force some of the height off the floor, whether through defensive substitutions or foul trouble.
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Yep, it's a two way problem. Let's see Amari Williams chasing Cooper around the perimeter and see how well that works for them.

If Big Pat is out for the year it sucks for his development and gives Duke a little less situational flexibility against really big teams, but I don't think it changes the fundamental identity of the team.
 
cato said:
Interesting stuff. This could be a concern if our depth at the 4/5 gets depleted or played off the court, but wouldn’t the chess match be working to exploit mismatches the other way? Perhaps Kentucky’s big bodies can work within a defensive scheme that holds up, but if Duke’s offense can combine perimeter shooting and drives/ball movement that force mismatches, maybe we can force some of the height off the floor, whether through defensive substitutions or foul trouble.
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We should have the best defensive frontcourt in the country. The best defensive forward to enter college basketball in how many decades? A 7-2 agile guy with a 9-8 standing reach. And a first team all-ACC defender with a 7-0 wingspan. I mean, come on...

In that article I linked, Brad Brownell, with the best frontcourt in the ACC (Shef and Hall), is quoted as saying they schemed around Maliq Brown he's such a disruptive defender. That says a lot about his ability to defend the post.

I'm seeing Amari Williams listed most places at 6-10. He averaged 12 and 8 at Drexel last year. I mean pretty good but I don't think he's someone to fear.

Kansas is starting the 7-2 Dickinson and 6-7 KJ Adams. Dickinson will be a tough matchup for sure, but everybody who plays KU will be saying that.
 
SkyBrickey said:
I'm seeing Amari Williams listed most places at 6-10. He averaged 12 and 8 at Drexel last year. I mean pretty good but I don't think he's someone to fear.
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UK's official roster and ESPN (which I assume gets their info from the school) list him at 7 feet, but I see Drexel had him at 6'10" last year. Not sure how he grew so fast, must be the mountain air.

I agree he's not the second coming of Zach Edey or whatever, I just bring him up (along with Carr) as an example of a frontcourt that plays two big dudes where it would be nice to have Ngongba around at least as a security blanket.
 
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