Blue Devils in the NBA 2023-2024

Those of us who watch most of Tatum's games understand how exactly how good he is, regardless of unresolvable arguments about top five, etc. Winning a championship would shut people up, but he's going to need help....specifically I think they'll be in trouble if Porzingis isn't available.
 
It's not just you.

It's this whole "hot take" universe. Here's how it works:

- How good is Jason Tatum?
- Jason Tatum could be a top 5 player in the NBA before long
- Wrong! Jason Tatum is a top 5 player TODAY!
- Nope, he isn't "clutch" enough. Look at these metrics!
- Oh wow, he sure played well in the clutch of this series, NOW he's a top 5 player right?
- Are we overrating Jason Tatum?

Rinse. Repeat. I can't stand it.

Can't someone be really really good? Why do we need to have on air debates about whether is a top five player or a top ten Celtic, or a top player of his draft class?

Can't someone just be a good basketball player?

I’d encourage everyone to listen to JJs recent podcast with Ryan Russillo as they talk about this very subject. Russillo was a Boston sports talk radio guy for a while and got into the psyche of Celtics fans a bit. Definitely worth a listen but a few of his points were:
- Boston fans in general are a bit doom and gloom and always take the negative angle
- Statistically this Celtics teams had a season that compared to dominant champions of the past (16 Warriors, late 90s Bulls) but Celtics fans dismiss it with things like “they aren’t clutch” or “the don’t have anyone like Bird”
- they have been “ahead of schedule” getting to the eastern conference finals very early in the careers of Brown and Tatum (made it to the eastern conference finals in Browns first year in 2017, again in Tatums first year in 2018, and again in 2020, 2022, 2023), but because they have played in the ECF so often the narrative has become “they can’t win the big ones” instead of them over achieving just to get there
- For Tatum, people focus on what his isn’t vs what he is. He’s never going to be the best player in the league with Luka, Joker, Giannis, Steph, etc, but he is a regular all NBA guy in the 5-10 range. But fans expect him to be the best player so he will always come up short of those expectations. And he’s not super outgoing, more of a “I’ll let my game speak for itself” type, so he doesn’t hype himself to counter the negativity.

Anyway, I thought the conversation was interesting, especially given the recent discussion on this thread.


Looking forward to a great finals. Hope KP is healthy so we can see both teams compete at full strength. Will be curious to see the receptions KP gets in Dallas and Kyrie gets in Boston with their respective histories.
 
I’d encourage everyone to listen to JJs recent podcast with Ryan Russillo as they talk about this very subject. Russillo was a Boston sports talk radio guy for a while and got into the psyche of Celtics fans a bit. Definitely worth a listen but a few of his points were:
- Boston fans in general are a bit doom and gloom and always take the negative angle
- Statistically this Celtics teams had a season that compared to dominant champions of the past (16 Warriors, late 90s Bulls) but Celtics fans dismiss it with things like “they aren’t clutch” or “the don’t have anyone like Bird”
- they have been “ahead of schedule” getting to the eastern conference finals very early in the careers of Brown and Tatum (made it to the eastern conference finals in Browns first year in 2017, again in Tatums first year in 2018, and again in 2020, 2022, 2023), but because they have played in the ECF so often the narrative has become “they can’t win the big ones” instead of them over achieving just to get there
- For Tatum, people focus on what his isn’t vs what he is. He’s never going to be the best player in the league with Luka, Joker, Giannis, Steph, etc, but he is a regular all NBA guy in the 5-10 range. But fans expect him to be the best player so he will always come up short of those expectations. And he’s not super outgoing, more of a “I’ll let my game speak for itself” type, so he doesn’t hype himself to counter the negativity.

Anyway, I thought the conversation was interesting, especially given the recent discussion on this thread.

Whew! Good thing there's no Boston fans here like that. LOL

No time right now, but I wanted to get that self-deprecating point in quickly. More later (time permitting).
 
I’d encourage everyone to listen to JJs recent podcast with Ryan Russillo as they talk about this very subject. Russillo was a Boston sports talk radio guy for a while and got into the psyche of Celtics fans a bit. Definitely worth a listen but a few of his points were:
- Boston fans in general are a bit doom and gloom and always take the negative angle
- Statistically this Celtics teams had a season that compared to dominant champions of the past (16 Warriors, late 90s Bulls) but Celtics fans dismiss it with things like “they aren’t clutch” or “the don’t have anyone like Bird”
- they have been “ahead of schedule” getting to the eastern conference finals very early in the careers of Brown and Tatum (made it to the eastern conference finals in Browns first year in 2017, again in Tatums first year in 2018, and again in 2020, 2022, 2023), but because they have played in the ECF so often the narrative has become “they can’t win the big ones” instead of them over achieving just to get there
- For Tatum, people focus on what his isn’t vs what he is. He’s never going to be the best player in the league with Luka, Joker, Giannis, Steph, etc, but he is a regular all NBA guy in the 5-10 range. But fans expect him to be the best player so he will always come up short of those expectations. And he’s not super outgoing, more of a “I’ll let my game speak for itself” type, so he doesn’t hype himself to counter the negativity.

Anyway, I thought the conversation was interesting, especially given the recent discussion on this thread.


Looking forward to a great finals. Hope KP is healthy so we can see both teams compete at full strength. Will be curious to see the receptions KP gets in Dallas and Kyrie gets in Boston with their respective histories.

This is a good summary of the situation. I would add in a couple of other things:

1. Tatum is a better defender than any of Jokic, Steph, Luka (not Giannis), but the average fan doesn't take that into consideration much at all when considering top players.
2. Tatum has had some up-and-down stretches of 3-point shooting, and when he's taking and missing tough, contested 3s (often at the end of the shot clock), fans get frustrated. He's judged a bit unfairly because he's on a team with a bunch of good spot-up 3-point shooters (White, Holiday, Brown, Porzingis, Horford, Pritchard, Hauser), but most of those guys' shots are limited to open spot-up 3s, which are easier shots than what Tatum is often forced to shoot.
3. Tatum is still growing into his current role of playmaker/scorer. I think it's not insignificant that in his first two years his point guard was Kyrie (ball-dominant), followed by two years with Kemba Walker (ball-dominant), and even in 2022 and 2023 Smart often initiated the offense. Tatum has improved markedly at initiating the offense, reading what the defense gives and making the right play, but he's still learning and improving.
 
It's a long, long season. Every player goes through difficult patches. Tatum has had a terrific year by any standard....
 
Tatum's a clear top 10 player but I would have Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Embiid, SGA, Anthony Davis and Anthony Edwards all above him. This isn't a slight towards him, the league is just stacked.

What I don't get is how many pundits have Jaylen Brown ranked ahead of Kyrie. Brown is the better defender, is more versatile with being able to guard multiple positions and a better rebounder but Kyrie is a better 3 level scorer, the best ballhandler on the planet and a better playmaker.
 
3. Tatum is still growing into his current role of playmaker/scorer. I think it's not insignificant that in his first two years his point guard was Kyrie (ball-dominant), followed by two years with Kemba Walker (ball-dominant), and even in 2022 and 2023 Smart often initiated the offense. Tatum has improved markedly at initiating the offense, reading what the defense gives and making the right play, but he's still learning and improving.

I bet Tatum has improved in myriad ways in the past four seasons or so, but to the casual fan or the ones who only watch the Celtics once in a while (like me), he mostly looks like the same player he was four years ago at age 21-22, and the stats generally support this. It goes to show just how good he was at that young age, but it also leads to the heightened expectations and questions (why hasn't he gone from top 10-ish to top 3-ish)? Turns out that's a tough jump to make.
 
Interesting article in the Athletic today about the parity we have seen in the NBA in recent years... now matter who wins, we are about to see our 6th different champ in the past 6 years.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/55...rce=dailyemail&campaign=601983&userId=6937708

But then the article veers and asks if rather than being in an era of amazing parity, are we instead about to enter an era of dominance by a certain club in green?

I’m not sure the mass audience has totally caught on to this since commentators seem to want to dunk on the team anytime it allows something worse than a 4-0 run, but … isn’t the argument about parity a little ridiculous until or unless the Celtics lose?

Boston won 64 games — tied for the most since the Rockets won 65 in 2018 — and did it with the fifth-best scoring margin of all time, a plus-11.3 difference that lapped the field. Only two other clubs (Oklahoma City at plus-7.4 and Minnesota at plus-6.5) had margins that were even half as large.

While the Celtics haven’t exactly faced a murderer’s row of playoff competition, they’ve dispatched those opponents with haste, going 12-2 so far in the playoffs with a margin of plus-10.9 while ranking first in playoff offense and third in defense.

They’re also the one team in the postseason that has been able to withstand a serious injury and keep on ticking. While absences from key players have led to the demise of teams such as the Clippers, Knicks, Bucks, Cavs and most recently Pacers, the Celtics have barely skipped a beat despite not having star big man Kristaps Porziņģis for the last two playoff rounds.

He’s likely to be back for the finals, where Boston would already seem to have an advantage. Dallas lost its last meeting against the Celtics — with all of its current trade pieces on board — by 28 points in March.
So are we entering a new era of parity? Or are we actually exiting an era of parity?

How differently would we be looking at this age if Jayson Tatum hadn’t injured his ankle on the first play of Game 7 against the Miami Heat a year ago and the Celtics had gone on to win the title?

It is a much longer article... worth a full read.
 
This week with no games is the worst. Can’t we draft Minnesota and Indiana and make them play a best-of-3 for third place?
 
Tatum's a clear top 10 player but I would have Jokic, Luka, Giannis, Embiid, SGA, Anthony Davis and Anthony Edwards all above him. This isn't a slight towards him, the league is just stacked.

What I don't get is how many pundits have Jaylen Brown ranked ahead of Kyrie. Brown is the better defender, is more versatile with being able to guard multiple positions and a better rebounder but Kyrie is a better 3 level scorer, the best ballhandler on the planet and a better playmaker.

Darn! Three years in a row a first-team All NBA selection (five players), and Jayson can't make the top seven on DBR. Tough crowd.

Re Kyrie: "flake factor" is a problem for Kyrie in overall player comparisons. And that is properly reflected in comments over the years on DBR.
 
Darn! Three years in a row a first-team All NBA selection (five players), and Jayson can't make the top seven on DBR. Tough crowd.

Re Kyrie: "flake factor" is a problem for Kyrie in overall player comparisons. And that is properly reflected in comments over the years on DBR.

At risk of jinxing - Kyrie has been silent on non-basketball issues this season.
 
The Tatum is struggling narrative seems to rest on two things. First his points per game is down just less than a point in the playoffs compared to the regular season and his three point percentage. Second, the Celtics have lost two games when they should have won every game.

On the first issue, his assists are up by one so on balance, he is responsible for generating one more point per game in the playoffs on balance. More importantly, his rebounds are up more than two, nearly two and a half, which is huge.

And while their opponents have had injuries, not much has been made about the Celtics missing KP. Maybe the argument is that Tatum has not stepped up big in his absence, but I would argue that nearly 2.5 extra rebounds in your starting centers absence is pretty big. He did have a bad game in at least one of their two losses I think, but Tatum is currently leading his 12-2 team in points, assists and rebounds; I wish I could struggle like that.

And I think the assists are an area of the game where he has really improved. Maybe not as much some would like but his career average is 3.5. 5.9 in these playoffs (while missing a starter) seems like significant improvement
 
I’m not sure if anyone has already posted this, but it’s a jaw-dropper. LeBron James said yesterday of Kyrie Irving “He’s the most gifted player the NBA has ever seen.”

I mean, WOW. 😮
 
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