MBB: Duke 71, Clemson 77: Post-game thread

IMO, BC showed teams how to attack ManMan. They were physical with him and forced him to play a man rather than allowing Maluach to play “Free Safety” in the lane. BC was able to expose ManMan’s weak box out fundamentals. On the offensive end, BC did not leave him to roll to the basket for easy lobs/dunks. At this point, his footwork needs development. I love the kid but he is a work in progress (aren’t we all ) and his shortcomings have become more evident as the season has progressed. Patrick is physical and sometimes to his/teams’ detriment but he seems unafraid to mix it up.
 
We have some games coming up that should allow some experimentation. I wonder if we will see more of Pat for his strength and bulk and more of Evans at guard to give Proctor and James some rest.
 
IMO, BC showed teams how to attack ManMan. They were physical with him and forced him to play a man rather than allowing Maluach to play “Free Safety” in the lane. BC was able to expose ManMan’s weak box out fundamentals. On the offensive end, BC did not leave him to roll to the basket for easy lobs/dunks. At this point, his footwork needs development. I love the kid but he is a work in progress (aren’t we all ) and his shortcomings have become more evident as the season has progressed. Patrick is physical and sometimes to his/teams’ detriment but he seems unafraid to mix it up.
Dickie V did call a spade a spade when he said that Khaman is not ready for the NBA. He got bodied hard last night, and I agree about his footwork and 1:1 defense. I thought he’d be a better rebounder as well. Not saying he’s a poor rebounder, but upper body strength and spatial awareness need to improve. It seems like when he gets the board, he’s susceptible to getting the ball swiped out or getting jump balled.
 
IMO, BC showed teams how to attack ManMan. They were physical with him and forced him to play a man rather than allowing Maluach to play “Free Safety” in the lane. BC was able to expose ManMan’s weak box out fundamentals. On the offensive end, BC did not leave him to roll to the basket for easy lobs/dunks. At this point, his footwork needs development. I love the kid but he is a work in progress (aren’t we all ) and his shortcomings have become more evident as the season has progressed. Patrick is physical and sometimes to his/teams’ detriment but he seems unafraid to mix it up.
I'd say it happened the game before BC when Miami's Lynn Kidd absolutely abused Man Man going for 20. He had no answer for him. For somebody 7'2 he sure doesn't block many shots. Yes the ones he blocks are usually WOW blocks but it's just too few of them. His feel for the game and positioning have so far to go. I know the potential is there for him to be special but if I was an NBA GM I'd hesitate on drafting him because by the time he figures this out could be the end of his rookie deal and he'd leave for somewhere else.
 
Did they turn up the heat in Littlejohn? That plus a raucous crowd, lots of grabbing, bumping, and pushing, and a lingering flu bug was enough to take our front line out of their game until Coop willed 10 late points. I don’t think Duke will face that combination of conditions again this season.
 
Is it possible to design an ACC schedule that is NOT cupcake soft when you're also the top team in the conference?
Well, yes it's possible. Auburn, for example, is the top team in their conference, but has a very tough schedule.

The issue isn't that we're the best team in the conference. The issue is that the rest of the conference just isn't very good. Not that we can control that, of course.
 
IMO, BC showed teams how to attack ManMan. They were physical with him and forced him to play a man rather than allowing Maluach to play “Free Safety” in the lane. BC was able to expose ManMan’s weak box out fundamentals. On the offensive end, BC did not leave him to roll to the basket for easy lobs/dunks. At this point, his footwork needs development. I love the kid but he is a work in progress (aren’t we all ) and his shortcomings have become more evident as the season has progressed. Patrick is physical and sometimes to his/teams’ detriment but he seems unafraid to mix it up.
I don't disagree but you still have to have a big man capable of doing it. Relatively few teams do.
 
Let's not turn into Debbie Downers ! It's just one conference loss. Let's learn from this, get better health wise and play the next game on Wednesday !
You surely cannot doubt that Duke put an all out effort into the Clemson game. I've seen more players diving for loose balls this game than all of last year ! Not to be critical of last year's team.
 
We got our butts kicked because Clemson thoroughly outclassed us in the front court. This was a men vs. boys game around the basket and the Tigers dominated in that area. It was perimeter play that kept this close. But our defense had zero answer for their offense in the last 8 minutes or so. That was the ball game. No excuses. This was a growing up game.
We got our butts kicked? I think you and I watched a different game. We had the ball to win or tie with about 10 seconds to go. How does that fit the definition of a butt kicking?
 
Well, yes it's possible. Auburn, for example, is the top team in their conference, but has a very tough schedule.

The issue isn't that we're the best team in the conference. The issue is that the rest of the conference just isn't very good. Not that we can control that, of course.
But the question was about an ACC schedule, not an SEC schedule.
 
A few thoughts after a bad night of sleep:

1) Cooper: It was clear immediately that Cooper was not himself. He looks pretty sick. I know he was reportedly under the weather at the unc game, but the illness seems to have progressed for the worse. There’s a lot of really bad upper respiratory stuff going around this year. I have had it as well as a few of my friends here in Atlanta. It can stick with you for a few weeks. It's viral, so antibiotics won's treat it and you have to ride it out.

Props to Coop for trying to play through it. It looks like some adrenaline kicked in at the end, as he rose up like a Phoenix mid-second half. It was the first 3/4 of the game when we really missed regular Cooper and it was a lot to make up. Would have been nice to have a 10-12 point lead going into the close, but instead it was a battle on the road against a hostile crowd, a physical team, and questionable lighting motifs.

2) Mason: Speaking of illness, our three headed frontcourt offers incredible versatility and this was a game where Mason was missed. ManMan is essential in games against opponents with multiple quick guards, like unc, and like the teams we will see in the first weekend of the tournament, with his ability to switch onto and stay in front of quick perimeter players.

Mason is great to have against teams with multiple bigs... teams with a large, traditional center, plus a power forward with size.

FWIW, I thought Cooper would have his way with Schieffelin, and I would love to see a rematch in the ACCT with healthy Cooper and healthy Mason. I'd like to see the rebounding margin on a neutral court against Clemson with those two available.

3) 20-0: It is very hard for a team to not lose a game in late January or early February and concurrently it is hard to avoid one or all freshman hitting a “freshman wall”. The season is a slog and the closer you get to March, the more the slog compounds on itself. March is refreshing but until it gets there, the slog is real. The freshman wall is a thing because freshman are just not used to playing two games a week against this level of physicality, with travel, for several months. But I thought when we won that NC State game after the 36 hour turnaround, that we might be able to skate the odds and finish 20-0. So this outcome is especially disappointing.

4) Kon: The F1 on Kon was nonsense. Refs must be charged up to call a tripping violation on any white wings from Duke at this point, but the call was egregiously bad. As a man, I can tell you that if another man's foot is in between your legs, your instinct is to slide your thighs/knees together, for obvious reasons. Just like you would put your hand over your face, like you would wince, like you would turn to the side... all manners of instinctual self-protection. The Clemson kid could have gotten up easily, but I am sure they are coached to fall down and look at the ref with a self-pitying gaze. There were so many scrums that the refs let go, including a shot to Cooper's neck.

5) Caleb: The last thing I thought I would read on the forum was that Caleb needed more PT in that game. Nah, I don't see it. Evans needs those minutes. He can really shoot and even better, other teams know that he can really shoot. He's a floor spreader. Evans plays loose. Caleb plays tight. There's too much at stake to try to get Caleb right at this point. Jon and the staff have been trying for weeks, but it is getting very late in the season.
 
At a certain point during the game I was wondering whether it might have been a good idea to do twin towers, with both Patrick and Maluach in the game, in an attempt to make it more difficult for them to score so many interior points and get so many offensive rebounds.

As for the zone, I thought Scheyer should have gone into and out of it at least one more time, to keep the Clemson offense guessing.
 

A few thoughts after a bad night of sleep:

1) Cooper: It was clear immediately that Cooper was not himself. He looks pretty sick. I know he was reportedly under the weather at the unc game, but the illness seems to have progressed for the worse. There’s a lot of really bad upper respiratory stuff going around this year. I have had it as well as a few of my friends here in Atlanta. It can stick with you for a few weeks. It's viral, so antibiotics won's treat it and you have to ride it out.

Props to Coop for trying to play through it. It looks like some adrenaline kicked in at the end, as he rose up like a Phoenix mid-second half. It was the first 3/4 of the game when we really missed regular Cooper and it was a lot to make up. Would have been nice to have a 10-12 point lead going into the close, but instead it was a battle on the road against a hostile crowd, a physical team, and questionable lighting motifs.

2) Mason: Speaking of illness, our three headed frontcourt offers incredible versatility and this was a game where Mason was missed. ManMan is essential in games against opponents with multiple quick guards, like unc, and like the teams we will see in the first weekend of the tournament, with his ability to switch onto and stay in front of quick perimeter players.

Mason is great to have against teams with multiple bigs... teams with a large, traditional center, plus a power forward with size.

FWIW, I thought Cooper would have his way with Schieffelin, and I would love to see a rematch in the ACCT with healthy Cooper and healthy Mason. I'd like to see the rebounding margin on a neutral court against Clemson with those two available.

3) 20-0: It is very hard for a team to not lose a game in late January or early February and concurrently it is hard to avoid one or all freshman hitting a “freshman wall”. The season is a slog and the closer you get to March, the more the slog compounds on itself. March is refreshing but until it gets there, the slog is real. The freshman wall is a thing because freshman are just not used to playing two games a week against this level of physicality, with travel, for several months. But I thought when we won that NC State game after the 36 hour turnaround, that we might be able to skate the odds and finish 20-0. So this outcome is especially disappointing.

4) Kon: The F1 on Kon was nonsense. Refs must be charged up to call a tripping violation on any white wings from Duke at this point, but the call was egregiously bad. As a man, I can tell you that if another man's foot is in between your legs, your instinct is to slide your thighs/knees together, for obvious reasons. Just like you would put your hand over your face, like you would wince, like you would turn to the side... all manners of instinctual self-protection. The Clemson kid could have gotten up easily, but I am sure they are coached to fall down and look at the ref with a self-pitying gaze. There were so many scrums that the refs let go, including a shot to Cooper's neck.

5) Caleb: The last thing I thought I would read on the forum was that Caleb needed more PT in that game. Nah, I don't see it. Evans needs those minutes. He can really shoot and even better, other teams know that he can really shoot. He's a floor spreader. Evans plays loose. Caleb plays tight. There's too much at stake to try to get Caleb right at this point. Jon and the staff have been trying for weeks, but it is getting very late in the season.
Evans made a big three for us then a few mins later took a terrible shot. I thought that kind of hurt a little in our bid to make a comeback.
 
But the question was about an ACC schedule, not an SEC schedule.
The question was whether it was possible to have a not-cupcake soft schedule when you're the top of the conference. It did not specify which conference. But I specifically noted that the problem isn't that we're at the top of the conference. It's that the teams below us aren't good. And I noted that's beyond our control.

It's not just the SEC. The Big-10 and Big-12 also have tougher conference schedules, even for the top team in those conferences. The issue is that the ACC is bad right now, not that we are the best team in the conference. There have been plenty of instances where we were the best team in the ACC and the conference schedule was still tough. And there have been instances where we weren't the best team in the conference and yet the conference schedule wasn't that tough.
 
A few thoughts after a bad night of sleep:

1) Cooper: It was clear immediately that Cooper was not himself. He looks pretty sick. I know he was reportedly under the weather at the unc game, but the illness seems to have progressed for the worse. There’s a lot of really bad upper respiratory stuff going around this year. I have had it as well as a few of my friends here in Atlanta. It can stick with you for a few weeks. It's viral, so antibiotics won's treat it and you have to ride it out.

Props to Coop for trying to play through it. It looks like some adrenaline kicked in at the end, as he rose up like a Phoenix mid-second half. It was the first 3/4 of the game when we really missed regular Cooper and it was a lot to make up. Would have been nice to have a 10-12 point lead going into the close, but instead it was a battle on the road against a hostile crowd, a physical team, and questionable lighting motifs.

2) Mason: Speaking of illness, our three headed frontcourt offers incredible versatility and this was a game where Mason was missed. ManMan is essential in games against opponents with multiple quick guards, like unc, and like the teams we will see in the first weekend of the tournament, with his ability to switch onto and stay in front of quick perimeter players.

Mason is great to have against teams with multiple bigs... teams with a large, traditional center, plus a power forward with size.

FWIW, I thought Cooper would have his way with Schieffelin, and I would love to see a rematch in the ACCT with healthy Cooper and healthy Mason. I'd like to see the rebounding margin on a neutral court against Clemson with those two available.

3) 20-0: It is very hard for a team to not lose a game in late January or early February and concurrently it is hard to avoid one or all freshman hitting a “freshman wall”. The season is a slog and the closer you get to March, the more the slog compounds on itself. March is refreshing but until it gets there, the slog is real. The freshman wall is a thing because freshman are just not used to playing two games a week against this level of physicality, with travel, for several months. But I thought when we won that NC State game after the 36 hour turnaround, that we might be able to skate the odds and finish 20-0. So this outcome is especially disappointing.

4) Kon: The F1 on Kon was nonsense. Refs must be charged up to call a tripping violation on any white wings from Duke at this point, but the call was egregiously bad. As a man, I can tell you that if another man's foot is in between your legs, your instinct is to slide your thighs/knees together, for obvious reasons. Just like you would put your hand over your face, like you would wince, like you would turn to the side... all manners of instinctual self-protection. The Clemson kid could have gotten up easily, but I am sure they are coached to fall down and look at the ref with a self-pitying gaze. There were so many scrums that the refs let go, including a shot to Cooper's neck.

5) Caleb: The last thing I thought I would read on the forum was that Caleb needed more PT in that game. Nah, I don't see it. Evans needs those minutes. He can really shoot and even better, other teams know that he can really shoot. He's a floor spreader. Evans plays loose. Caleb plays tight. There's too much at stake to try to get Caleb right at this point. Jon and the staff have been trying for weeks, but it is getting very late in the season.
Best post on the thread. Perfectly articulated my thoughts. Hopefully we can move on, figure out defense for teams with beefy bigs (hint: ZONE!), get healthy, and get back to moving the ball on offense and playing Duke basketball.
Last night was not our night for a multitude of reasons that I hope never align again!
 
Part of the issue is that Clemson had two ways to punish us inside. They had Lakhin and Schieffelin, both of whom were very effective around the basket. But they also had Hunter and Zackery, who could each cause trouble off the dribble.

This presented a problem in two ways:
1. If we switched everything, they could exploit mismatches, getting Lakhin/Schieffelin isolated on a guard in the post OR isolating Zackery/Hunter on one of our bigs on the perimeter.
2. If we didn't switch, they could run pick and roll using Hunter/Zackery as downhill guards and try to punish us trying to recover.

Having good downhill guards AND good bigs is a tough combination. Not a lot of teams have that. Clemson had that last night, and their guards and Schieffelin were making good decisions with the basketball. That's tough. We did a decent job of limiting the opportunities for Zackery and Hunter, but those guys hit just enough midrange shots, and we just didn't have an answer for Lakhin. And darned if that long three by Schieffelin with the shot clock winding down didn't hurt us too.

Obviously trying something different against Lakhin might have worked better. But I'm not sure we ultimately had a good answer on this night. We went zone for a few possessions, and it briefly threw off Clemson (though they got some offensive rebounds out of it). Brownell called timeout, and I suspect that Clemson would have then picked apart the zone had we stuck with it. Because I don't think it's a terribly effective zone; it's just a surprising zone due to length until you figure out how to break it down (which is why we've seen it work in very short spurts).
 
I never like to criticize players. But since I've been calling him a top 6 draft pick, I will say that 3 points, 5 rebounds, 1 block is not getting the job done for our 7'2 center when the other team scores 40 in the paint. Yikes.
He’s not even a first round pick on his play-just not experienced or strong enough. He also has no O game. 7’2” = NBA potential. This is not criticism of him, just facts. He needs 2 more years of college ball to come into his own.
 
Some lingering questions after this game… do we have a weakness guarding big front court guys (can Khaman defend them? Can we guard the perimeter and win the rebounding battle at the same time? Have we gotten too used to beating weak ACC teams and thus inflating our sense of how good the team is?

No question we made this game close on our unusually good three point shooting, a couple of which were prayers that went in. This game was not really as close as it looked.
He has shown he can’t defend them effectively. Duke’s weakness on D is allowing other bigs to get the ball down low where they score and/or get fouled.
 
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