The latest height and weight of players are on Goduke

Jon's offseason makes PERFECT sense when you recognize that Pat missed a whole season of basketball, so Jon brought in Brown to backup the 5 and the 4.

It's only confusing if you are trying to make his moves fit your narrative. A fully healthy Pat would have crushed it at the U18s. Instead he got limited minutes.
Pat has 4 months to shake off the rust to be a back-up 5. Let me say that again. A back-up 5. His job will be to set screens, get rebounds, and block shots in 10-15mpg.
 
Smh at the continued references to Brown somehow playing out of position as a 5. According to Marks, a specific part of Brown's appeal to Duke was his ability to play the 5 capably. And as I posted in another thread, he was expected to split time between the 4 and 5 by the Cuse staff before last season began and injuries made him a full-time 5. His offensive skill set is also pure low post / center. It certainly isn't classic Duke or modern college game 4.
Yeah I just don't get this take either. I still think there's a chance Brown starts at the 5 early in the year while Khaman gets comfortable. Not expecting it, but it's a possibility.

Brown was one of THE most efficient inside scorers in the country last year. For a Duke offense that likes a stretch 4 that can knock down 3s, we'd be playing him out of position at the 4, not the 5.

I've already got my pie bet with azz. You should claim one too!
 
Jeff Goodman felt TJ Power would start last year. The so-called experts don't have a crystal ball any more than we do.
I saw Goodman has the Heels as a top 5 team this season. Some analysts are better than others.

Wait, which season? If you mean 2023-2024, he was right: UNC was a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament. If you mean 2024-2025, he did this video, where he specifically does not include UNC among the 10 teams that will win the next national championship:


Goodman is asked about teams from a list. Kansas, Connecticut, Alabama, and Houston get an "absolutely", while Duke, Baylor, Purdue, Iowa State, and Auburn get a "yes". Goodman then casts his write-in vote for Creighton. UNC, Gonzaga, Arizona, and Arkansas get a "no".

I guess both can be true. Maybe he sees the Heels as a preseason top 5, but not as a title contender.
 
Smh at the continued references to Brown somehow playing out of position as a 5. According to Marks, a specific part of Brown's appeal to Duke was his ability to play the 5 capably. And as I posted in another thread, he was expected to split time between the 4 and 5 by the Cuse staff before last season began and injuries made him a full-time 5. His offensive skill set is also pure low post / center. It certainly isn't classic Duke or modern college game 4.
His defensive skill set is decidedly not a 5. He is a below-average defensive rebounder and well below average at blocks for a 5. For a 4 he is quite good. Mason Gillis is an extremely poor rebounder for a 4. He also adds nothing in the steals and blocks department. Marks did seem very certain that Cooper wouldn't play the 4. Given the rest of the roster, I think Maliq is the best choice at the 4.
 
Yeah I just don't get this take either. I still think there's a chance Brown starts at the 5 early in the year while Khaman gets comfortable. Not expecting it, but it's a possibility.

Brown was one of THE most efficient inside scorers in the country last year. For a Duke offense that likes a stretch 4 that can knock down 3s, we'd be playing him out of position at the 4, not the 5.

I've already got my pie bet with azz. You should claim one too!
Duke just spent a season starting Mark Mitchell at the 4 and had a top-10 offense and made the elite 8.
 
Wait, which season? If you mean 2023-2024, he was right: UNC was a 1 seed in the NCAA Tournament. If you mean 2024-2025, he did this video, where he specifically does not include UNC among the 10 teams that will win the next national championship:


Goodman is asked about teams from a list. Kansas, Connecticut, Alabama, and Houston get an "absolutely", while Duke, Baylor, Purdue, Iowa State, and Auburn get a "yes". Goodman then casts his write-in vote for Creighton. UNC, Gonzaga, Arizona, and Arkansas get a "no".

I guess both can be true. Maybe he sees the Heels as a preseason top 5, but not as a title contender.
It was a poll from maybe 6-8 weeks ago where Goodman had them #3. Maybe he was assuming they'd get an impact center but he didn't state that in his write-up. Looks like he has come to his senses!
 
Duke just spent a season starting Mark Mitchell at the 4 and had a top-10 offense and made the elite 8.
If Duke created the ideal 4 in a lab, it would be Cooper Flagg. For those thinking Cooper has to get labeled a 3 because of his perimeter skills, think about how much Flip handled the ball on the perimeter as a 5 last year. We will build the offense around Cooper no matter how he is labeled...

Marks said the 3/4 are interchangeable when he predicted Gillis would start alongside Flagg. I've read a couple of rumors that Duke promised Cooper he would start at the 3 and I remember Cooper's mom tweeting "he's a 3!" So I think there's some gamesmanship here with the labels. The big thing is whether Cooper starts alongside two bigs (Brown and Maluach) or two shooters (Foster/James and Gillis/Kon/Evans). I think lots of signs point toward two shooters.
 
And Steve Wiseman believes Maliq will be the starter.

And Vecenie believed that Tyrese would be a lottery pick at this time last year.

And K2 and Evans are not outstanding shooters, they are TBD shooters. All non-elite prospects are suspects until proven otherwise.
Saw that San Vecenie is saying that he’s planning to list K2 in his 2025 draft projection that’s coming out right after this draft. Has to be a positive, but your commenting on his Tyrese prediction from last year is also timely and provides perspective.
 
Pat has 4 months to shake off the rust to be a back-up 5. Let me say that again. A back-up 5. His job will be to set screens, get rebounds, and block shots in 10-15mpg.
If Pat gets more than 6-7 min/GM I will be stunned. Khaman and Brown will make up majority of the minutes at the 5. There are to many guys that can shoot the 3 that will push Brown away from playing the 4. If Jon rolls out Brown at the 4 and Khaman/Ngongba at the 5 opposing coaches will immediately go to zone. I don't think any Duke fan wants to see a non shooter at the 3/4 spots that we have had to watch these that 2 years.
 
Tis often said the NBA drafts on potential. I don't think people are seeing the potential with Kon. I'm going out on a limb here but I think he could end up the 6th man this year just because he has the versatility to play 1-4.
 
If Duke created the ideal 4 in a lab, it would be Cooper Flagg. For those thinking Cooper has to get labeled a 3 because of his perimeter skills, think about how much Flip handled the ball on the perimeter as a 5 last year. We will build the offense around Cooper no matter how he is labeled...

Marks said the 3/4 are interchangeable when he predicted Gillis would start alongside Flagg. I've read a couple of rumors that Duke promised Cooper he would start at the 3 and I remember Cooper's mom tweeting "he's a 3!" So I think there's some gamesmanship here with the labels. The big thing is whether Cooper starts alongside two bigs (Brown and Maluach) or two shooters (Foster/James and Gillis/Kon/Evans). I think lots of signs point toward two shooters.
I think your lineup of Proctor, Foster, Flagg, Malauch and Gillis makes sense to start the game. I see Flagg guarding the 4, Gillis the 3. On offense, Flagg the 3 and Gillis the 4. After the tip, everything is off the table. We have potentially 9 players that could start for many teams.

GoDuke!
 
Tis often said the NBA drafts on potential. I don't think people are seeing the potential with Kon. I'm going out on a limb here but I think he could end up the 6th man this year just because he has the versatility to play 1-4.
I've been rethinking my concept of "potential" w/r/t the NBA lately. Look at the All-NBA 1st Team for this season:

Giannis Antetokounmpo, Luka Doncic, Shai Gilgeous-Aleksander, Nikola Jokic, and Jayson Tatum.

Take out Giannis, and is this the most unathletic 1st Team in NBA history? Even including Giannis, and this might be the least explosive group of athletes to be 1st Team All-NBA in decades. The All-NBA Teams include Jalen Brunson, Domantas Sabonis, Steph Curry, and Tyrese Halliburton. Would any of these guys impress in a dunk contest?

Another way of making this point is asking this question: Who is more likely to acquire a swing skill, Kon or Maluach? Maluach would need to develop his ball handling skills while Kon would need to show he can be at least a neutral defender. Maybe Kon's closer to unlocking his potential, and that's what is missing from a debate about potential that relies on imagining things.
 
If Pat gets more than 6-7 min/GM I will be stunned. Khaman and Brown will make up majority of the minutes at the 5. There are to many guys that can shoot the 3 that will push Brown away from playing the 4. If Jon rolls out Brown at the 4 and Khaman/Ngongba at the 5 opposing coaches will immediately go to zone. I don't think any Duke fan wants to see a non shooter at the 3/4 spots that we have had to watch these that 2 years.
Do you mean Duke may have to face a team playing its fourth or fifth-best defense? A defense that is difficult to rebound in against a Duke frontcourt that will be very good at getting rebounds. I think Duke will be fine.
 
If Duke created the ideal 4 in a lab, it would be Cooper Flagg. For those thinking Cooper has to get labeled a 3 because of his perimeter skills, think about how much Flip handled the ball on the perimeter as a 5 last year. We will build the offense around Cooper no matter how he is labeled...

Marks said the 3/4 are interchangeable when he predicted Gillis would start alongside Flagg. I've read a couple of rumors that Duke promised Cooper he would start at the 3 and I remember Cooper's mom tweeting "he's a 3!" So I think there's some gamesmanship here with the labels. The big thing is whether Cooper starts alongside two bigs (Brown and Maluach) or two shooters (Foster/James and Gillis/Kon/Evans). I think lots of signs point toward two shooters.
You are conveniently ignoring two things that Brendan said. One, he said that Duke wants Cooper "playing centerfield" and not tied to the post on defense. That is not a player defending the 4 for most teams. Maliq is a better defender than Mason overall, especially at the 4. Two, he said Jon is comfortable winning 65-50. That tells me Jon wants to put the best defensive team out there. The best defensive frontcourt is Cooper, Maliq, and Khaman.

Also, why are you writing off Tyrese as a shooter?
 
I've been rethinking my concept of "potential" w/r/t the NBA lately. Look at the All-NBA 1st Team for this season:

Giannis Antetokounmpo, Luka Doncic, Shai Gilgeous-Aleksander, Nikola Jokic, and Jayson Tatum.

Take out Giannis, and is this the most unathletic 1st Team in NBA history? Even including Giannis, and this might be the least explosive group of athletes to be 1st Team All-NBA in decades. The All-NBA Teams include Jalen Brunson, Domantas Sabonis, Steph Curry, and Tyrese Halliburton. Would any of these guys impress in a dunk contest?

Another way of making this point is asking this question: Who is more likely to acquire a swing skill, Kon or Maluach? Maluach would need to develop his ball handling skills while Kon would need to show he can be at least a neutral defender. Maybe Kon's closer to unlocking his potential, and that's what is missing from a debate about potential that relies on imagining things.
There's definitely merit to this thinking. Gone are the days when teams prioritized young, raw athletes in the draft, with the hope of developing them into basketball players. Having a decent outside shot, or at least solid evidence that one can be developed, is almost table stakes now, even for bigs, unless you bring some other exceptional ability to the table.

In the case of Maluach, I'm guessing that his presumptively high ceiling is not just based on size and athleticism, but on the flashes of skill he's already shown - shooting, ballhandling, etc. Teams are looking for Wembanyamas, not Rudy Goberts. If he's a top-3 pick in the draft, it will be because a team believes in those flashes.

As for Kon, I think he's entering the threshold of professional basketball at just the right time. Ten years ago, he'd have been haunted by the ghosts of the NBA careers of Adam Morrison and Jimmer Fredette. Now, there's a host of "alarmingly unathletic" success stories he can take heart from.
 
You are conveniently ignoring two things that Brendan said. One, he said that Duke wants Cooper "playing centerfield" and not tied to the post on defense. That is not a player defending the 4 for most teams. Maliq is a better defender than Mason overall, especially at the 4. Two, he said Jon is comfortable winning 65-50. That tells me Jon wants to put the best defensive team out there. The best defensive frontcourt is Cooper, Maliq, and Khaman.

Also, why are you writing off Tyrese as a shooter?
I remember him saying that, but he also said, as to playing centerfield, "like Shane Battier". Shane was a 4 at Duke. Just thought that was funny.
 
This is starting to feel like Seth Greenberg saying who is gonna be in the NCAAs -- "They're DEFINITELY a tournament team, same as the other 85 teams that I like."

So, based on the "raw and uncut" video, Maliq is (almost) unanimously the best defender, and Sion and Kon look awesome. And we have Gillis written into the starting line up. Are we really going to start our 8th best player?

And just to state it out loud, if Mason actually is 8th best on the team, we are going to be terrifying.
 
You are conveniently ignoring two things that Brendan said. One, he said that Duke wants Cooper "playing centerfield" and not tied to the post on defense. That is not a player defending the 4 for most teams. Maliq is a better defender than Mason overall, especially at the 4. Two, he said Jon is comfortable winning 65-50. That tells me Jon wants to put the best defensive team out there. The best defensive frontcourt is Cooper, Maliq, and Khaman.

Also, why are you writing off Tyrese as a shooter?
I'm glad you brought up the centerfielder quote. I did think that was interesting. Centerfielder to me is a guy sagging off his man to help out on other defensive assignments. And in the case of Cooper, feast on weak side, help side blocks where he is absolutely elite. Alabama played the 6-10 Nelson as a centerfielder sagging off Cadeau during the quarterfinals, daring Cadeau to shoot. It sent him to the bench for the entire second half.

Would love to have a deeper. Conversation with Marks on this, but I think what he was suggesting is you put Cooper on the 3 or 4, whoever is the poorer shooter, giving him the freedom to roam more on D. I'd love to rewind the tape and watch Battier's college defense. Coach K gave him this freedom to be a disrupter.

Back to your plan for Pat. If you do play him 15mpg, he becomes your 8th man pushing K2 and Evans to your 9th and 10th men. Do the minutes and you'll see. This is just not going to happen...
 
There's definitely merit to this thinking. Gone are the days when teams prioritized young, raw athletes in the draft, with the hope of developing them into basketball players. Having a decent outside shot, or at least solid evidence that one can be developed, is almost table stakes now, even for bigs, unless you bring some other exceptional ability to the table.

In the case of Maluach, I'm guessing that his presumptively high ceiling is not just based on size and athleticism, but on the flashes of skill he's already shown - shooting, ballhandling, etc. Teams are looking for Wembanyamas, not Rudy Goberts. If he's a top-3 pick in the draft, it will be because a team believes in those flashes.

As for Kon, I think he's entering the threshold of professional basketball at just the right time. Ten years ago, he'd have been haunted by the ghosts of the NBA careers of Adam Morrison and Jimmer Fredette. Now, there's a host of "alarmingly unathletic" success stories he can take heart from.
These are great points. I think the NBA is really high on Maluach as a 3 point threat. He's shot well at pretty decent volume. And he's only been playing ball for 5 years so his touch should get better and better. Will we see his outside shot at all at Duke? Pick and pop? Or high-low action with Maluach as a threat to shoot feeding Cooper in the post? It will be interesting.

I think you're right on Kon. This NBA finals was the first time I'd gone deep watching Luka's game. It's fascinating how he uses his body, his strength, his agility, to get open looks. The NBA allows so much physical contact. He's almost unguardable. Maybe it's my recency bias, but I saw some of those flashes in Kon's game in the scrimmage and I was surprised to see he's very close to Luka's size. I'm not ready to crown him our 5th starter - I still think that's likely to be Gillis - but I'm pretty confident Kon will be squarely in the rotation and might very well be our second or third option on offense by EOY.
 
I'm glad you brought up the centerfielder quote. I did think that was interesting. Centerfielder to me is a guy sagging off his man to help out on other defensive assignments. And in the case of Cooper, feast on weak side, help side blocks where he is absolutely elite. Alabama played the 6-10 Nelson as a centerfielder sagging off Cadeau during the quarterfinals, daring Cadeau to shoot. It sent him to the bench for the entire second half.

Would love to have a deeper. Conversation with Marks on this, but I think what he was suggesting is you put Cooper on the 3 or 4, whoever is the poorer shooter, giving him the freedom to roam more on D. I'd love to rewind the tape and watch Battier's college defense. Coach K gave him this freedom to be a disrupter.

Back to your plan for Pat. If you do play him 15mpg, he becomes your 8th man pushing K2 and Evans to your 9th and 10th men. Do the minutes and you'll see. This is just not going to happen...
Alabama also played 4 guys 6'10" or taller for 86 minutes in that game so they had players to cover Ingram/Bacot.

If the opposing 4 is on the block, Cooper can not sag off him. Cooper will be forced to fight for position which is not a strength of his, and will expose him to those annoying Burns (the offensive player initiates the contact, and the defensive player gets called) fouls. I think Cooper works best in space. Having him guard the 3 accomplishes this.

I've done the minutes. Pat would not be pushing Evans and K2. Cooper, Mason, Sion, and Caleb/Tyrese would. Even if you take Cooper out of the equation, only 1 of K2 and Evans makes the cut. It's a lot of talent for a typical Duke 7-7.5 man rotation.
 
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