the current average is still the current average. EVs won't take over the market very quickly is my point...
Teslas and other electric vehicles
- Thread starter moonpie23
- Start date
I guess that depends on your definition of 'quickly'. Just a few years ago, there were a few not so great EV's (Leaf, Chevy Bolt/Volt) and Tesla (new company considered an interesting experiment). There were also hybrids that were close enough to ICE that people didn't really think about them as EV's. Now, Tesla is a household name and claims that their Model Y was the best selling vehicle for some time period. Every major manufacturer has EV's and is working very hard to make them better. Companies like Rivian have started selling a decent number of vehicles, etc. The change has been pretty quick in the grand scheme of things. Sure the tax credit helps but what really helps is having viable options and more infrastructure (both of which we now have).
As someone who's always liked cars I find this to be a great time to be a car guy. Lots of ICE options and more and more EV options and a swing the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes....
According to Edmunds, the switch to EVs in the U.S, is slowing. https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/how-many-electric-cars-in-us.html
Selling about one million EVs in the US per year vs 12 million or so for ICE cars. My only point is that with price points where they are, at $59k on average for EVs, it's no wonder the transition is not particularly fast....the Chinese would be happy to change that but they're not going to get the opportunity. Personally I think hybrids are the current sweet spot, and the Edmunds data seems to agree. I too like checking out cars, but I got a new one in 2023 so I'm done for a decade.
PackMan97
Member
Scientifically and mathematically, hybrids might be the sweet spot.
Battery production is an issue. What is better, 10 plug-in hybrids with 6kWh batteries that almost every day will be able to do their daily driving on battery power or one 60kWh that only drives 30 miles a day, but could drive 300? If reducing greenhouse gases and burning less oil is the goal....we should be pushing plug-in hybrids as given a limited battery supply that's the best way to go.
For enthusiasts, the plug hybrid is far from the sweet spot, it's basically the worst of both worlds.
EV growth will ebb and flow, but it's still growth. Reading a lot of online content, I know one of the things slowing EV adoption is the amount of disinformation being spread. It's spewed at every online post. Then there's a subset of people who who think it's against their politics to drive an EV (most of them buy into the disinformation being spewed). But when you read closed/moderated groups of people that own EV's you hear the true pros and cons.
EV growth will ebb and flow, but it's still growth. Reading a lot of online content, I know one of the things slowing EV adoption is the amount of disinformation being spread. It's spewed at every online post. Then there's a subset of people who who think it's against their politics to drive an EV (most of them buy into the disinformation being spewed). But when you read closed/moderated groups of people that own EV's you hear the true pros and cons.
you don't think an average price of $59k for an electric vehicle is a deterrent to EV adoption? As for "enthusiasts," they don't drive the market at all. Getting all the emotion and politics out of it (I see EVs as the future but don't really care that much) there is a real, genuine affordability issue, and if the tax credit goes away it gets worse.
Quoting Edmunds: "the transition to full EVs has slowed as hybrids currently appear to be the more comfortable choice for the majority of Americans seeking electrified options."
It's a valid point, Bud, about the very high cost of most EV vehicles. It's definitely an upper middle class car. But all cars have skyrocketed in price. I was meeting with a client yesterday and she told me that she is buying a new Subaru Forrester. Price is $36,000 (I assume it is the "premium" edition). It wasn't that long ago that a Forrester was a $24,000 car (and sometimes even less than that). Also, I was parked next to someone at our transfer station (the "dump" in the old days) and he had a new Toyota Hybrid RAV 4, that used to be a $27,000 car in the not too distant past. I asked how much he paid for it and he said $49,000. Pretty soon, you will have to take out a 30-year loan to afford a new car.
cato
Member
This is a relevant data point for me. In fact, the relevant data point when I had to unexpectedly replace my Kia Sorrento this past summer.
The Tesla Model Y was by far the most compelling choice for our family. If a Rav 4 was $49k, the Y was $51k with AWD and nice rims. I have cheap charging at work and will quickly make back the price difference in fuel savings.
Hybrids also circumvent the other major deterrent to EV adoption, which is range anxiety. Worth noting that the planned buildout of EV charging stations under the Inflation Reduction Act remains way behind schedule. I suspect EV adoption will remain gradual until there is a material change in progress on that front.
Indoor66
Well-known member
Does that mean get all of your information on the pros and cons of EV's from inside the bubble?
agree completely on the price of cars. Automakers have made some clever moves than benefit themselves, to our detriment. Instead of the old model of flooding dealers with cars, (necessitating end of year sales they hate) they are providing fewer cars but with lots more options which are highly profitable...definitely seeing what you see, Subaru Outbacks (good cars for here) approaching 50k, loaded with all kinds of stuff.
Range is a big problem here. I know several friends who really wanted an EV, bought one, then found themselves flummoxed multiple times trying to deal with charging issues. I suspect this is much less of an issue in heavily populated areas, but in rural areas it's a big, big issue unless you just dedicate the car to driving back and forth to work which some people do.
PackMan97
Member
Aye, we bought a Rav4 XLE for $24k (out the door) back in 2017. It might be a challenge to get a Corolla for that price today.
When my mother-in-law moved up to Raleigh two years ago we looked at minivans briefly, went onto the lot saw the prices and got back into the Rav4 and said, when all five of us need to go somewhere, we'll deal with it being crowded. They were all pushing $50k. Given that our other car is a '03 Corolla that we bought off my wife's parents shortly after we were married....we'll see what things look like in another 10-15 years maybe prices will be sane again.
Fair points. We recently finished a 15-year run of travel sports with our 3 children, which frequently took us from Chicago to other Midwestern cities (St. Louis, Detroit, Minneapolis, etc.). A lot of roughly 300 mile trips each way (and sometimes more), through very sparsely populated areas much of the way. EVs were just not a practical option for this lifestyle.
I also know a lot of younger, pre-children couples who frequently road trip on weekends. Many of whom would love to drive EVs but have generally bought hybrids instead purely because of range anxiety.
EVs work on trips if you have patience and are willing to make more frequent stops. We've taken our Tesla (Standard Range) from Virginia to South Florida and from Virginia to Canada using the fantastic Supercharging network. I can see the donwside if you have a car full of kids and are in a rush to get somewhere. What this country needs is a much better/easier car and truck rental business. Need to go on a road trip this weekend? Rent a minivan. Need to haul a trailer across the state? Rent a F250. I would do that in a heartbeat rather than having giant trucks and SUVs crowding the streets for the occasional time they are needed.
On my (very long) drive yesterday I listened to the latest inEVitable podcast (MotorTrend podcast about all things EV).
The guest was Tia Gordon, COO and Co-founder of a company called 'it's electric' (see itselectric.us) and she was a fantastic guest. She did a great job of describing issues with charging and solutions. For example, one thing I learned is that in the UK the public infrastructure is 240v whereas in the US it's 110 (except LA). So in the UK they can make an L2 charger out of pretty much any street lamp. Her company has a great concept. They install simple chargers using the power from buildings (private or public). The building owners have passive income and urban users have more places to charge. The simple design has removed many of the parts that break (including cables). Anyway, if you get a chance give it a listen, I found it to be very informative (it's stuff like this that makes me think we have a chance...)
Link to YouTube
That's a link to youtube but if you search for "inEVitable Podcast" you can find it elsewhere.
The guest was Tia Gordon, COO and Co-founder of a company called 'it's electric' (see itselectric.us) and she was a fantastic guest. She did a great job of describing issues with charging and solutions. For example, one thing I learned is that in the UK the public infrastructure is 240v whereas in the US it's 110 (except LA). So in the UK they can make an L2 charger out of pretty much any street lamp. Her company has a great concept. They install simple chargers using the power from buildings (private or public). The building owners have passive income and urban users have more places to charge. The simple design has removed many of the parts that break (including cables). Anyway, if you get a chance give it a listen, I found it to be very informative (it's stuff like this that makes me think we have a chance...)
Link to YouTube
That's a link to youtube but if you search for "inEVitable Podcast" you can find it elsewhere.
CameronBornAndBred
Well-known member
Are any current owners worried? One of our tailgate neighbors (past Duke football player) drives a Cyber Truck, and he told me his car had already been keyed. That was in October, before the election.
This is in California, but that doesn't mean it's likely to be regional.
www.independent.co.uk
I'm no fan of Musk, but this fear tactic (and likely worse when someone takes action) is more than off-putting to me.
If you were thinking about buying one, does your mind change?
This is in California, but that doesn't mean it's likely to be regional.
‘Students Against Nazi Extremism’ warn Tesla owners to sell their cars – or else
Local police said they have not yet received any reports of vandalism since the notes were sent
www.independent.co.uk
I'm no fan of Musk, but this fear tactic (and likely worse when someone takes action) is more than off-putting to me.
If you were thinking about buying one, does your mind change?
AGDukesky
Member
Yeah, I’m not a fan eitherAre any current owners worried? One of our tailgate neighbors (past Duke football player) drives a Cyber Truck, and he told me his car had already been keyed. That was in October, before the election.
This is in California, but that doesn't mean it's likely to be regional.
‘Students Against Nazi Extremism’ warn Tesla owners to sell their cars – or else
Local police said they have not yet received any reports of vandalism since the notes were sent
I'm no fan of Musk, but this fear tactic (and likely worse when someone takes action) is more than off-putting to me.
If you were thinking about buying one, does your mind change?
Yea, my wife bought an electric car about a year ago and she wouldn't even look at a Tesla. She hates Elon and Republicans, so a Tesla was a "hard NO" for her. It wouldn't surprise me to see at least some vandalism to Teslas, in certain parts of the country, given how polarizing Elon has become. It will also be interesting to see if it begins to hurt Tesla sales, going forward (I'm thinking about shorting the stock, although it is already down quite a bit from its highs). I believe the "My Pillow" guy saw a dramatic fall in sales of his pillows when he became a voracious supporter of DT. Boycotting certain products is certainly one way for people to make their political beliefs known.
SlapTheFloor
Member
While I understand their anger, I think students are going to find that gasoline-powered cars are going to screw up their lives way more than Elon ever will.Are any current owners worried? One of our tailgate neighbors (past Duke football player) drives a Cyber Truck, and he told me his car had already been keyed. That was in October, before the election.
This is in California, but that doesn't mean it's likely to be regional.
‘Students Against Nazi Extremism’ warn Tesla owners to sell their cars – or else
Local police said they have not yet received any reports of vandalism since the notes were sent
I'm no fan of Musk, but this fear tactic (and likely worse when someone takes action) is more than off-putting to me.
If you were thinking about buying one, does your mind change?