National POY Discussion

I think Spanarkel had a slightly better Duke career than Banks, at least based on awards

Both were ACC RoY and made multiple All-ACC and All-ACC Tournament Teams (see below) but Spanarkel was also a 2nd Team All-American in 1979 and ACC Tournament MVP in 1978
All-ACC: Spanarkel 3 (2x 1st Team, 1x 2nd Team); Banks 4 (1x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team)
All-ACC Tournament: Spanarkel 3 (2x 1st Team, 1x 2nd Team); Banks 2 (2x 1st Team)
Banks was great. He changed the perception of Duke being a bunch of talented but finesse "smart guys" (code word for white, back in that racist time period) to a program that could recruit inner city. He was hardnosed and tough, and Duke had never had a guy with his athleticism, strength and skill. His shot over Perkins vs. UNC will live forever in great Duke moments.

That being said, without Spanarkel, one can doubt Banks would have even come to Duke. Tate Armstrong was gone, so Tink had to believe in Spanarkel (and Gman, but Spanarkel was the captain). And he was 2nd team A-A, tournament MVP, etc. That Jersey kid was tough as nails. The only reason he's not up in the rafters is that K said only POY or DPOY gets their jersey up there. And of course, graduating. I like the graduating part of the equation. But if anyone who doesn't have both qualifications gets up there, then Spanarkel should be next in line. I loved Banks, but Spanarkel gets his number lifted first before him.

So to keep with the topic, if Flagg gets POY *and* graduates, then hang his jersey. If they hang Flagg's jersey without him graduating, then I want to see Spanarkel's be next. I only know Verga's stats, so I'm not dissing him. But it is indeed important to note that Verga and Spanarkel aren't getting any younger, and you really want to honor someone when they are still alive (except for Pete Rose, who I am fine now seeing in the BBHOF, but I digress...).

9F
 
Banks was great. He changed the perception of Duke being a bunch of talented but finesse "smart guys" (code word for white, back in that racist time period) to a program that could recruit inner city. He was hardnosed and tough, and Duke had never had a guy with his athleticism, strength and skill. His shot over Perkins vs. UNC will live forever in great Duke moments.

That being said, without Spanarkel, one can doubt Banks would have even come to Duke. Tate Armstrong was gone, so Tink had to believe in Spanarkel (and Gman, but Spanarkel was the captain). And he was 2nd team A-A, tournament MVP, etc. That Jersey kid was tough as nails. The only reason he's not up in the rafters is that K said only POY or DPOY gets their jersey up there. And of course, graduating. I like the graduating part of the equation. But if anyone who doesn't have both qualifications gets up there, then Spanarkel should be next in line. I loved Banks, but Spanarkel gets his number lifted first before him.

So to keep with the topic, if Flagg gets POY *and* graduates, then hang his jersey. If they hang Flagg's jersey without him graduating, then I want to see Spanarkel's be next. I only know Verga's stats, so I'm not dissing him. But it is indeed important to note that Verga and Spanarkel aren't getting any younger, and you really want to honor someone when they are still alive (except for Pete Rose, who I am fine now seeing in the BBHOF, but I digress...).

9F
Those 3, Verga, Banks and Spanarkel in my opinion deserve to be retired. Those 3 players helped make Duke Basketball what it is. Banks coming opened the door for more diversified recruiting success. He was 2nd in importance to Johnny Dawkins in that regard. Put Tinker Bell in the rafters.

GoDuke!
 
And just to refresh, in 2015, Frank Kaminsky was a 22-year-old four-year senior.
Broome has terrific "counting stats" and is clearly a force for a strong Auburn team.

As we've come to learn, including from Michael Lewis' "No Stats All Star" article about Battier, there are a lot of things that aren't measured (or not measured broadly) that impact winning that don't show up in traditional box scores. I think KenPom's rating is somewhat a composite proxy for "winning." Could we get an update of KenPom's current POY ratings?
 
Broome has terrific "counting stats" and is clearly a force for a strong Auburn team.

As we've come to learn, including from Michael Lewis' "No Stats All Star" article about Battier, there are a lot of things that aren't measured (or not measured broadly) that impact winning that don't show up in traditional box scores. I think KenPom's rating is somewhat a composite proxy for "winning." Could we get an update of KenPom's current POY ratings?
Broome's advanced stats (Player Efficiency Rating, Win Shares, Box Plus/Minus, etc.) are also fantastic. He's a very good player.

KenPom's kPOY (KenPom Player of the Year) gives a lot of weight to team stats. Basically, it answers the question: How good does a player contribute to the best teams' success? As you might imagine, Flagg scores very well using that approach.

1. Cooper Flagg, 2.733
2. Johni Broome, 2.305
3. Hunter Dickinson, 1.599
4. Braden Smith, 1.579
5. Kam Jones, 1.499
6. Javon Small, 1.373
7. Trey Kaufman-Renn, 1.342
8. Graham Ike, 1.289
9. PJ Haggerty, 1.254
10. Mark Sears, 1.239
 
I'll admit I haven't been paying much attention to the player-of-the-year conversation. The last I recall was this pre-season article from ESPN which described the national player-of-the-year race as a tossup between Cooper Flagg and RJ Davis.

Are you folks telling me that this is no longer the case?

Also, the ACC media held true to form and voted overwhelmingly in favor of RJ over Cooper as pre-season ACC player-of-the-year. Knowing how the ACC media tends to vote, that may still happen.

One final hindsight-is-20/20 dig at the (ACC) media. UNC received more first place votes in the pre-season ACC poll (11) than Cooper Flagg received for pre-season player-of-the-year (10).
It may be a fight for RJ Davis to make first team all ACC this season. His stats are fine (17ppg on 39.6/30.8/87.5 shooting, 3.9 ast, 3.9 reb), albeit down from last year. Right now, I'd put him behind at least Coop, Maxime Raynaud (leads the conference in points and boards), Chucky Hepburn (leads the league in assists on a top 3 team), and Chase Hunter (equally prolific but more efficient scoring than Davis on a top 3 team). Hunter Sallis, Baby Stojakovic, and Jaland Lowe also have decent cases, and I'm probably overlooking some others.
 
Around the World in 80 Days won over Friendly Persuasion, Giant, The King and I, and The Ten Commandments. It's not like it was taking out all-time greats or anything.
 
Broome's advanced stats (Player Efficiency Rating, Win Shares, Box Plus/Minus, etc.) are also fantastic. He's a very good player.

KenPom's kPOY (KenPom Player of the Year) gives a lot of weight to team stats. Basically, it answers the question: How good does a player contribute to the best teams' success? As you might imagine, Flagg scores very well using that approach.

1. Cooper Flagg, 2.733
2. Johni Broome, 2.305
3. Hunter Dickinson, 1.599
4. Braden Smith, 1.579
5. Kam Jones, 1.499
6. Javon Small, 1.373
7. Trey Kaufman-Renn, 1.342
8. Graham Ike, 1.289
9. PJ Haggerty, 1.254
10. Mark Sears, 1.239
Pretty significant gap between Cooper and Broome.
 
Around the World in 80 Days won over Friendly Persuasion, Giant, The King and I, and The Ten Commandments. It's not like it was taking out all-time greats or anything.
My kids make fun of me because I told them the story of how I got really upset when Gandhi beat out ET when I was about 8 and for weeks I was saying "Who's Gandhi? Who cares about Gandhi? What did he do to beat ET?"
 
Not for me. I think Goodfellas, start to finish, is the finest movie ever made.
While Goodfellas is in my top 20, Dances with Wolves may be my #1. We should probably take this to the Off Topic threads (but I actually don't have a lot to say about films).
 
My kids make fun of me because I told them the story of how I got really upset when Gandhi beat out ET when I was about 8 and for weeks I was saying "Who's Gandhi? Who cares about Gandhi? What did he do to beat ET?"
"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will" - Gandhi (presumably casting his vote for Cooper Flagg in the NPOY discussion)
 
Pretty significant gap between Cooper and Broome.
Flagg is in rare territory for the kPOY rankings. KenPom changed up his formula for KPOTY in '13, so this doesn't capture a ton of college basketball history. Here are the 10 highest kPOY rankings since '13 (active seasons in bold):

  1. Frank Kaminsky, Wisconsin '15 2.794
  2. Cooper Flagg, Duke '25 2.739
  3. Zach Edey, Purdue '24 2.699
  4. Russ Smith, Louisville '13 2.636
  5. Johni Broome, Auburn '25 2.305
  6. Trey Burke, Michigan '13 2.194
  7. Zach Edey, Purdue '23 2.106
  8. Jarrett Culver, Texas Tech '19 2.063
  9. Brice Johnson, North Carolina '16 1.996
  10. Jahlil Okafor, Duke '15 1.969.
 
My kids make fun of me because I told them the story of how I got really upset when Gandhi beat out ET when I was about 8 and for weeks I was saying "Who's Gandhi? Who cares about Gandhi? What did he do to beat ET?"
To give another Duke angle on this, I took a Poli Sci course on Middle Eastern Politics with eminent Islamic World scholar Ralph Braibanti, and we took a class field trip to Ghandi. The point being to both understand non-Western perspectives generally, and the Hindu-Muslim conflict in post-colonial India (which begat Pakistan) in particular.
 
Broome has terrific "counting stats" and is clearly a force for a strong Auburn team.

As we've come to learn, including from Michael Lewis' "No Stats All Star" article about Battier, there are a lot of things that aren't measured (or not measured broadly) that impact winning that don't show up in traditional box scores. I think KenPom's rating is somewhat a composite proxy for "winning." Could we get an update of KenPom's current POY ratings?
that article is my favorite article about one of my favorite players!
 
It may be a fight for RJ Davis to make first team all ACC this season. His stats are fine (17ppg on 39.6/30.8/87.5 shooting, 3.9 ast, 3.9 reb), albeit down from last year. Right now, I'd put him behind at least Coop, Maxime Raynaud (leads the conference in points and boards), Chucky Hepburn (leads the league in assists on a top 3 team), and Chase Hunter (equally prolific but more efficient scoring than Davis on a top 3 team). Hunter Sallis, Baby Stojakovic, and Jaland Lowe also have decent cases, and I'm probably overlooking some others.

Markus Burton on ND is having a very good season as well, albeit on a not great team.

20.1 (2nd in ACC) with 3.4 boards, 3.2 assists and 1.4 steals (14th) in 30.6 mpg. He's shooting 46/42/85%.

I'm not sure that's 1st Team worthy. But certainly All ACC.

- Chillin
 
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