National POY Discussion

tommy said:
Johni Broome does some of those things. Not nearly all. I think if Cooper didn't make those late turnovers against Kentucky and Kansas maybe this Broome for POY thing wouldn't have developed this aura of inevitability it has, but come on.
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I don't agree with this premise. Where are you seeing a consensus that Broome is the inevitable NPOY? There is definitely an ESPN narrative developing, but that narrative is "Cooper Flagg and Johni Broome are neck and neck for player of the year, it will be nigh impossible to choose between them, Kam Jones is a clear but distant third." I've seen that basic litany repeated pretty much whenever the topic comes up.
 
I kinda feel I should ask a potentially ugly related question. If Cooper is voted POY (and I would assume he will be named that by at least some services), what will it take for his jersey to be hung in the rafters? An undefeated conference record? A national championship? Absolutely nothing, because only a 4 year graduate is eligible?

Phrased differently, if Flagg isn't eligible to have his jersey honored, I think we are saying that the era for that is over. Are we OK with that?


p.s. I can already anticipate that someone will be pedantic and mention that Jay Will graduated in 3 years. Yes, yes, yes, point taken.
 
dlmzzz said:
I kinda feel I should ask a potentially ugly related question. If Cooper is voted POY (and I would assume he will be named that by at least some services), what will it take for his jersey to be hung in the rafters? An undefeated conference record? A national championship? Absolutely nothing, because only a 4 year graduate is eligible?

Phrased differently, if Flagg isn't eligible to have his jersey honored, I think we are saying that the era for that is over. Are we OK with that?


p.s. I can already anticipate that someone will be pedantic and mention that Jay Will graduated in 3 years. Yes, yes, yes, point taken.
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If Duke wins out through the end of the NCAA Tournament and comes back to graduate in 2052, they will retire his jersey then.
 
OK. It's a legit answer to say, "You must graduate". But I think we should be honest and admit that means that the era of jerseys going into the rafters is done (barring some currently unlikely NBA eligibility rule change). The kinds of players who could earn that on the court will have to have an incredible single year at Duke, and then are likely to have 10-15 years pass (barring injury) where their NBA career would seriously limit any time they might have to take classes.

If Cooper can't get it, nobody's getting it. Not really.
 
dlmzzz said:
If Cooper can't get it, nobody's getting it. Not really.
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And that's fine, isn't it? We're having to assign more jersey numbers than ever before, given the turnover. Maybe it's not so bad to stick to our guns on this one. Coming back for a degree could be the signal that says, "See, I really AM a Duke guy through and through."

Seems reasonable to me, anyway.
 
dlmzzz said:
I kinda feel I should ask a potentially ugly related question. If Cooper is voted POY (and I would assume he will be named that by at least some services), what will it take for his jersey to be hung in the rafters? An undefeated conference record? A national championship? Absolutely nothing, because only a 4 year graduate is eligible?

Phrased differently, if Flagg isn't eligible to have his jersey honored, I think we are saying that the era for that is over. Are we OK with that?


p.s. I can already anticipate that someone will be pedantic and mention that Jay Will graduated in 3 years. Yes, yes, yes, point taken.
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I don't think Jersey retirements are over, but I think it will happen for a 3 or 4 year player that earns a national player of the year award in their last year. It won't happen often but it can happen. I'm the first to admit I could be wrong, but even with the most spectacular heroics over a single season—imagine someone averaging a triple-double and never dropping a game—I’m not convinced that’s enough to see their jersey raised to the rafters ever. While I love the amazing talent, entertainment, and wins these top recruits bring for one year, it takes a longer commitment to hang a jersey, if you want to see your jersey retired max out those NIL $$ and stick around.
 
dlmzzz said:
OK. It's a legit answer to say, "You must graduate". But I think we should be honest and admit that means that the era of jerseys going into the rafters is done (barring some currently unlikely NBA eligibility rule change). The kinds of players who could earn that on the court will have to have an incredible single year at Duke, and then are likely to have 10-15 years pass (barring injury) where their NBA career would seriously limit any time they might have to take classes.

If Cooper can't get it, nobody's getting it. Not really.
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Really? We can’t ever have a Johni Broome at Duke?
 
Maged said:
I expect Broome to win it. One, his team is #1 and in the toughest conference. Two, there is no question the media favors the guy who has "paid his dues" rather than the upstart freshman. Three, everyone knows Cooper is the first draft choice while Broome will be well down the list so let's reward him now. And last, the Duke thing-we don't want to give Duke even more credit than they already get.

None of these should matter but I suspect they will.
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I'd agree with your points, but I would say the your first bullet is a pretty fair reason to lean towards Broome.
 
I'll admit I haven't been paying much attention to the player-of-the-year conversation. The last I recall was this pre-season article from ESPN which described the national player-of-the-year race as a tossup between Cooper Flagg and RJ Davis.

Are you folks telling me that this is no longer the case?

Also, the ACC media held true to form and voted overwhelmingly in favor of RJ over Cooper as pre-season ACC player-of-the-year. Knowing how the ACC media tends to vote, that may still happen.

One final hindsight-is-20/20 dig at the (ACC) media. UNC received more first place votes in the pre-season ACC poll (11) than Cooper Flagg received for pre-season player-of-the-year (10).
 
FosterCoachK82 said:
Really? We can’t ever have a Johni Broome at Duke?
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Broome isn't the best example of this, since he started at a mid-major and transferred up to Auburn as a junior, which I suspect would damper or at least complicate the jersey retirement calculus. The better case would be Zach Edey, Jamal Shead, Drew Timme, or (sigh) RJ Davis, POY caliber guys who played four-plus years at one school.

I think there are reasons that make it less likely for Duke to have one of those guys. Shead and Edey were both 3-star guys who stuck around and blossomed. Timme and Davis were four star guys ranked in the 50s or 60s. Duke doesn't really recruit many guys at that level. The few that Duke does bring in (Reeves, Goldwire, Blakes, Schutt) are having to compete with 5-star guys every year, so the opportunities for on court experience/growth are limited and a transfer is more likely. It is what it is.

The best candidate would be someone in the lower half of the top 100 who outperforms their ranking and demands PT as a freshman but whose game doesn't obviously translate to the NBA. Drew Timme is the archetype for this. Not inconceivable Duke lands someone fitting that profile in the future (Timme himself had a Duke offer if memory serves).
 
crote said:
Broome isn't the best example of this, since he started at a mid-major and transferred up to Auburn as a junior, which I suspect would damper or at least complicate the jersey retirement calculus. The better case would be Zach Edey, Jamal Shead, Drew Timme, or (sigh) RJ Davis, POY caliber guys who played four-plus years at one school.

I think there are reasons that make it less likely for Duke to have one of those guys. Shead and Edey were both 3-star guys who stuck around and blossomed. Timme and Davis were four star guys ranked in the 50s or 60s. Duke doesn't really recruit many guys at that level. The few that Duke does bring in (Reeves, Goldwire, Blakes, Schutt) are having to compete with 5-star guys every year, so the opportunities for on court experience/growth are limited and a transfer is more likely. It is what it is.

The best candidate would be someone in the lower half of the top 100 who outperforms their ranking and demands PT as a freshman but whose game doesn't obviously translate to the NBA. Drew Timme is the archetype for this. Not inconceivable Duke lands someone fitting that profile in the future (Timme himself had a Duke offer if memory serves).
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Great points. Makes sense to me.

If there is a desire to retire more numbers we can always go back in history. Give Gene Banks another look.
 
DU82 said:
I love Tink, but I think Verga and Spanarkel are in the queue ahead of him.
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Absolutely DU82! I advocated that for years until the beating a dead horse set in. Bob was the best shooter ever at Duke, maybe JJ excepted. He would have averaged 30 ppg with the 3 point line. Jim was the captain and leader of the team that resurrected Duke and connected the eras. Put old #11 next to Hurley, and at long last hang up #34! One day it will be too late.
 
CameronBlue said:
Verga, I can see. Spanarkel, not before Tink, though I don't think it should be a contest between the two.
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I think Spanarkel had a slightly better Duke career than Banks, at least based on awards

Both were ACC RoY and made multiple All-ACC and All-ACC Tournament Teams (see below) but Spanarkel was also a 2nd Team All-American in 1979 and ACC Tournament MVP in 1978
All-ACC: Spanarkel 3 (2x 1st Team, 1x 2nd Team); Banks 4 (1x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team)
All-ACC Tournament: Spanarkel 3 (2x 1st Team, 1x 2nd Team); Banks 2 (2x 1st Team)
 
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