Scrimmage Video (June 2024)

[scottdude8]

Ok I won't debate Azz anymore but I'll debate you...

Even if we do ignore lineups beyond the starting 5, what makes you so confident Brown is a better player than Gillis or James? Maybe, but maybe not. Especially if you believe shooting around Flagg and Maluach should be a priority.

Ultimately Jon's opinion matters more than all of ours. Did he have an idea of who was going to play where when he was putting this roster together? Of course he did. Remember that Ngonba had just missed a whole year of HS....

If his plan was to play Cooper at the wing and Brown at the 4, why in the world would he bring in two more rotation quality wings in James and Gillis on top of two top-15 freshman wings? Instead of a proven and healthy backup Center to Maluach - also a freshman who has only been hooping it for 5 years. It doesn't make any sense.

Now Jon is free to change his mind, and maybe he has. Maybe Ngongba will have an unreal summer and emerge as a great backup to Maluach. It's possible. But there's no evidence of this yet. And if he does, both K2 and Evans will be relegated to garbage minutes as our 9th and 10th men. I just can't see it. Sam Vicente is predicting K2 will be our second best freshman after that scrimmage video - I saw those same flashes of a budding superstar...

And if I'm dying on a hill, it's this one.

Maluach is unlikely to play more than 25mpg. And for those other 15mpg+, we will be a much, much better team with the ACC's top defensive post player playing over a freshman who just missed a year of basketball. That's my hill. I'll die on it. Everything else I'm flexible on...

I’m not going to rehash some debates we’ve already had that you’re trying to reignite, because that’s not helpful to anyone

That said, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: starting Maliq alongside Khaman and Cooper does not mean Pat has to play big minutes. It’s just not true. There are so many examples in the college game about substitutions “shifting” players over rather than being direct one for one.

Cooper, Maliq, and Malauch start. Mason Gillis subs in for Maluach for 10 minutes, and plays the 3/4 alongside Cooper at the 3/4 while Maliq shifts down to the 5. Mason plays another 10 minutes while Maliq is out and Khaman is in. 5 of Sion’s minutes come at the 3, spelling Cooper while Maliq and Khaman are both out there.

That’s a very, VERY feasible rotation that doesn’t require Pat. And it doesn’t even factor in likely minutes for K2 and/or Evans at the 3… maybe that’s how you get 5 fewer minutes for Khaman. But if Khaman lives up to his potential we’re going to want to get 30 mpg out of him by season’s end.

You could be right about everything, but there are also very feasible scenarios in which you’d be wrong. You have to see that, right? If so, you should probably tone down the certainty with which you assert things accordingly, because it’s starting to create conflicts where there don’t need to be any IMHO.

 

[SkyBrickey]

I’m not going to rehash some debates we’ve already had that you’re trying to reignite, because that’s not helpful to anyone

That said, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: starting Maliq alongside Khaman and Cooper does not mean Pat has to play big minutes. It’s just not true. There are so many examples in the college game about substitutions “shifting” players over rather than being direct one for one.

Cooper, Maliq, and Malauch start. Mason Gillis subs in for Maluach for 10 minutes, and plays the 3/4 alongside Cooper at the 3/4 while Maliq shifts down to the 5. Mason plays another 10 minutes while Maliq is out and Khaman is in. 5 of Sion’s minutes come at the 3, spelling Cooper while Maliq and Khaman are both out there.

That’s a very, VERY feasible rotation that doesn’t require Pat. And it doesn’t even factor in likely minutes for K2 and/or Evans at the 3… maybe that’s how you get 5 fewer minutes for Khaman. But if Khaman lives up to his potential we’re going to want to get 30 mpg out of him by season’s end.

You could be right about everything, but there are also very feasible scenarios in which you’d be wrong. You have to see that, right? If so, you should probably tone down the certainty with which you assert things accordingly, because it’s starting to create conflicts where there don’t need to be any IMHO.

Easy there, man. I said my hill to die on was playing Brown over Ngongba as the backup 5 and that everything else I was flexible on.

You are playing Brown over Ngongba as the backup 5, so I think your scenario is plausible to me. I don't think it's likely for a few reasons but there's no need to debate them further.

You want to start what you believe are the best 5 and that includes Brown. I get it. That's normally how it works for sure.

But I am genuinely curious about this one question. In a competitive game, do you believe 25 minutes from Brown as a starter would be more valuable than 25 minutes from Brown off the bench? To me it all depends on lineup combinations whether those 25 minutes are more valuable starting or as a sub...

 

[Phredd3]

Maluach is unlikely to play more than 25mpg. And for those other 15mpg+, we will be a much, much better team with the ACC's top defensive post player playing over a freshman who just missed a year of basketball. That's my hill. I'll die on it. Everything else I'm flexible on...

I agree with sentence number one. I think Maluach will have some problems staying on the floor. I am agnostic about the second, at least partially because I don't think it is necessary to define the problem as either Brown or Ngongba. Just because Ngongba is backing up the five, that doesn't mean that Brown isn't playing alongside him, nor does it rule out Brown taking a few minutes solo at the five from time to time in a small ball lineup.

That's similar to what Scott is saying, but unlike Scott, I'm going to add the brief coaching history we have for Jon Scheyer. In his first year as a coach, Ryan Young started at the five, while Flip almost exclusively played the four. Once Lively got sufficiently experienced, Young's minutes dropped, and Flip stayed at the four. Lively/Young combined for 38.2 mpg that year. Last season, Flip played almost exclusively at the five, and Ryan backed him up. Between the two of them, they played a combined 42.2 minutes. The point being, Scheyer has consistently shown that he wants someone playing the post at all times. For all that Brown filled in there for Syracuse last season, the post is not his natural position, and Scheyer really wants a big body in there, to the point of playing Ryan Young there a lot, a fact which drew many howls of protest on this very board. I think there's a pretty good chance that Maluach/Ngonba between them average something like 35+ min., and Brown slides down to the five for just a few minutes each game as a stop-gap, just as it happened in the only two seasons worth of data we have on this coach.

Of course, it could be that Scheyer wasn't thinking that way at all, and he was reading the lineup in a completely different way than I just described it. I don't know the guy, and I have no idea what his True Thoughts were on post play. But it sure looks to me like Coach will prefer a true center playing every game, and Brown has not shown himself to be that guy.

I fully acknowledge that I could be completely mistaken.

 

[scottdude8]

Easy there, man. I said my hill to die on was playing Brown over Ngongba as the backup 5 and that everything else I was flexible on.

You are playing Brown over Ngongba as the backup 5, so I think your scenario is plausible to me. I don't think it's likely for a few reasons but there's no need to debate them further.

You want to start what you believe are the best 5 and that includes Brown. I get it. That's normally how it works for sure.

But I am genuinely curious about this one question. In a competitive game, do you believe 25 minutes from Brown as a starter would be more valuable than 25 minutes from Brown off the bench? To me it all depends on lineup combinations whether those 25 minutes are more valuable starting or as a sub...

I think it’s silly to have that debate because it so, SO rarely works out that way, especially at the college level. The reality is that history says that’s very unlikely to happen if Maliq is indeed one of our 5 best players and playing Top 5 minutes. Debating a scenario with that many “what ifs” isn’t fun, IMHO, because you aren’t going to be able to convince anyone of anything if they don’t agree on the basic premises. So I’m going to let this go.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Lots of things are possible. Another thing that is possible that no one is arguing for is that Brown starts and plays 25mpg at the 5 and Maluach backs him up at 15mpg.

I don't get the whole Brown out of position at the 5 argument. He played the 5 for the whole ACC season at Syracuse and was first team All ACC defense and 99th percentile nationally in scoring efficiency in the paint. He's a small ball 5 like Sean Stewart (who is a better rebounder), but he was outstanding at the position last year.

 

[SkyBrickey]

I think it’s silly to have that debate because it so, SO rarely works out that way, especially at the college level. The reality is that history says that’s very unlikely to happen if Maliq is indeed one of our 5 best players and playing Top 5 minutes. Debating a scenario with that many “what ifs” isn’t fun, IMHO, because you aren’t going to be able to convince anyone of anything if they don’t agree on the basic premises. So I’m going to let this go.

Is it that unprecedented though that a top 5 player comes off the bench? Is there a chance Matt Painter would admit Mason was one of his top 5, even though he came off the bench at Purdue? I think it's very possible.

I've always said there's a chance Maliq would be our 5th starter. I think it's less likely than Gillis or James or K2, because we also need Brown playing at the 5. But Ive always said it was possible.

Azz is the one who has been unyielding in his view that Brown would start and Ngongba would backup the 5. It got so heated, we had to resort to a pie bet. Strawberry rhubarb.

 

[Phredd3]

I don't get the whole Brown out of position at the 5 argument. He played the 5 for the whole ACC season at Syracuse and was first team All ACC defense and 99th percentile nationally in scoring efficiency in the paint. He's a small ball 5 like Sean Stewart (who is a better rebounder), but he was outstanding at the position last year.

You do realize that his team had a better record with Brown at the four (10-4) than with him at the five (10-8), right? Syracuse thought he was out of position at the five. Yes, he proved capable of filling in there, but it was obvious that it wasn't his natural position. I don't even think that's debatable.

 

[SkyBrickey]

You do realize that his team had a better record with Brown at the four (10-4) than with him at the five (10-8), right? Syracuse thought he was out of position at the five. Yes, he proved capable of filling in there, but it was obvious that it wasn't his natural position. I don't even think that's debatable.

Ok, hold on. Those 14 games at the 4 were largely non-conference. And those 18 games were all in-conference. So that's apples and oranges.

I'm not saying the guy was Donovan Clingan but he was All ACC FIRST TEAM defense. And he was almost automatic finishing around the rim against ACC bigs - much better than Flip or Ryan. So if that's out of position, give me out of position all day!

I'm not even sure that Jon knew whether Ngongba would be able to lace them up this year when he went out and signed Brown. He signed Brown to backup Khaman at the 5. And to play minutes at the 4.

 

[azzefkram]

Easy there, man. I said my hill to die on was playing Brown over Ngongba as the backup 5 and that everything else I was flexible on.

You are playing Brown over Ngongba as the backup 5, so I think your scenario is plausible to me. I don't think it's likely for a few reasons but there's no need to debate them further.

You want to start what you believe are the best 5 and that includes Brown. I get it. That's normally how it works for sure.

But I am genuinely curious about this one question. In a competitive game, do you believe 25 minutes from Brown as a starter would be more valuable than 25 minutes from Brown off the bench? To me it all depends on lineup combinations whether those 25 minutes are more valuable starting or as a sub...

Brown is more valuable as a starter because starters are more valuable than backups. They set the tone. They open and close halves. In competitive games, they play more minutes. If Brown is a backup, he won't be getting 25 minutes in competitive games.

As a starter Brown may be playing closer to 30 minutes. More minutes for better players is always a good thing. Brown will be better than either K2 or Evans next season. K2 and Evans have greater potential than Maliq but they are unlikely to approach it in their freshman year. Potential doesn't win games. If it did, Duke doesn't lose to State last year, nor Tennessee the year prior.

 

[azzefkram]

Ok, hold on. Those 14 games at the 4 were largely non-conference. And those 18 games were all in-conference. So that's apples and oranges.

I'm not saying the guy was Donovan Clingan but he was All ACC FIRST TEAM defense. And he was almost automatic finishing around the rim against ACC bigs - much better than Flip or Ryan. So if that's out of position, give me out of position all day!

I'm not even sure that Jon knew whether Ngongba would be able to lace them up this year when he went out and signed Brown. He signed Brown to backup Khaman at the 5. And to play minutes at the 4.

Syracuse was 13th in the conference on Defense, 15th in 2P% allowed, 14th in offensive rebound % allowed, 10th in blocks. Playing Maliq at the 5 had something to do with that. I'm not signing up for that.

You are completely guessing as to what Jon did or didn't know about Pat when he brought Maliq in. It is equally likely that Jon knew Pat would be good to go, and he brought Maliq in to start at the 4.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Syracuse was 13th in the conference on Defense, 15th in 2P% allowed, 14th in offensive rebound % allowed, 10th in blocks. Playing Maliq at the 5 had something to do with that. I'm not signing up for that.

You are completely guessing as to what Jon did or didn't know about Pat when he brought Maliq in. It is equally likely that Jon knew Pat would be good to go, and he brought Maliq in to start at the 4.

I don't know why Jon would bring in a guy to play the 4 in Brown who is not a proven 3-point shooter or a guy like Gillis to sit on the bench along with K2 and Evans behind Cooper at the 3. But if those roster moves make sense to you, then keep on preaching...

 

[SkyBrickey]

Syracuse was 13th in the conference on Defense, 15th in 2P% allowed, 14th in offensive rebound % allowed, 10th in blocks. Playing Maliq at the 5 had something to do with that. I'm not signing up for that.

You are completely guessing as to what Jon did or didn't know about Pat when he brought Maliq in. It is equally likely that Jon knew Pat would be good to go, and he brought Maliq in to start at the 4.

Let's take me out of it for a minute because I think you're arguing just for a rhubarb pie.

Brendan Marks who is better connected than either of us into the program said that Jon brought Brown in to play the 5 and he expects Gillis to be the fifth starter. That's not me. It's Marks.

So are you even open to the idea that Marks could be right and you could be wrong? Is there even a possibility?

 

[jv001]

As for who starts or who comes off the bench, we won't know until the season starts. It's fun to guess and discuss, but my biggest concern is who gets playing time and who sits. I think young players are expecting to see the court in games and not just regulated to practice time. The transfer portal has changed the college game. If you don't play, just change teams. On paper Duke looks loaded and it's going to test the coaching staff to get 9 or 10 players the playing time to keep them at Duke. I believe it was Jason that said faster paced play could give the bench more playing time, but there's only 200 minutes available. Coach Scheyer has a terrific roster, but also has his work cut out for him.

GoDuke!

 

[Phredd3]

Ok, hold on. Those 14 games at the 4 were largely non-conference. And those 18 games were all in-conference. So that's apples and oranges.

Are they? The four losses in the 14 games were to three nationally-ranked teams (Duke, Tennessee, and Gonzaga) plus a loss to an always-tough Virginia team. The losses in their second half included Clemson (x2), Ga Tech, Wake and BC (plus FSU, State, and uNC - and only uNC was officially ranked). Of course, they did also beat uNC in that stretch, and that was the only ranked team they beat, so there's that. Either way, it looks like apples and more apples to me. The ACC just wasn't that good last year, despite State's miracle FF run.

But OK. You've had your say, and I've had mine. We'll see what actually works out.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Are they? The four losses in the 14 games were to three nationally-ranked teams (Duke, Tennessee, and Gonzaga) plus a loss to an always-tough Virginia team. The losses in their second half included Clemson (x2), Ga Tech, Wake and BC (plus FSU, State, and uNC - and only uNC was officially ranked). Of course, they did also beat uNC in that stretch, and that was the only ranked team they beat, so there's that. Either way, it looks like apples and more apples to me. The ACC just wasn't that good last year, despite State's miracle FF run.

But OK. You've had your say, and I've had mine. We'll see what actually works out.

Your point, I believe, was that 10-4 vs 10-8 proves that Brown was a better fit at the 4 than the 5 at Syracuse. I think your words were, "it's not debatable".

I think it's very debatable. But I also think a big reason Jon targeted Maliq out of all the possible post player transfers in the country is because he can effectively play the 5 AND the 4. And I believe he will this season at Duke...

 

[Phredd3]

But I also think a big reason Jon targeted Maliq out of all the possible post player transfers in the country is because he can effectively play the 5 AND the 4.

Oh, I definitely agree with that, and I've already said as much in this thread. Maliq was the insurance policy. I think we just disagree about how often he'll be at the 5 this season, absent any injury to him or our other posts.

 

[sagegrouse]

Syracuse was 13th in the conference on Defense, 15th in 2P% allowed, 14th in offensive rebound % allowed, 10th in blocks. Playing Maliq at the 5 had something to do with that. I'm not signing up for that.

You are completely guessing as to what Jon did or didn't know about Pat when he brought Maliq in. It is equally likely that Jon knew Pat would be good to go, and he brought Maliq in to start at the 4.

I think (ergo sum) that all the transfers have suspect abilities to contribute. Brown was the third-best player on a very average Cuse team; Sion was the 2nd-best player on a Tulane team that won only five games in the American conference; Gillis admits he has no offensive game. They have strengths, as in "strength," and presumably toughness and valuable experience.

Leaving aside the otherworldly Cooper Flagg (Bilas called next year's draft the "Cooper Flagg draft"), I believe Kon, Evans and Harris have better skills and abilities than the transfers but not the experience or proven toughness -- as yet. Maluach and Ngongbo look like really great prospects, but we know there is an adjustment period for the seven-footers.

Should be a ve-r-r-r-y interesting season and pre-season.

 

[FosterCoachK82]

I think (ergo sum) that all the transfers have suspect abilities to contribute. Brown was the third-best player on a very average Cuse team; Sion was the 2nd-best player on a Tulane team that won only five games in the American conference; Gillis admits he has no offensive game. They have strengths, as in "strength," and presumably toughness and valuable experience.

Leaving aside the otherworldly Cooper Flagg (Bilas called next year's draft the "Cooper Flagg draft"), I believe Kon, Evans and Harris have better skills and abilities than the transfers but not the experience or proven toughness -- as yet. Maluach and Ngongbo look like really great prospects, but we know there is an adjustment period for the seven-footers.

Should be a ve-r-r-r-y interesting season and pre-season.

Brown was the best player for Syracuse last year. I don’t know how you are coming up with third best.

 

[MChambers]

I agree with sentence number one. I think Maluach will have some problems staying on the floor. I am agnostic about the second, at least partially because I don't think it is necessary to define the problem as either Brown or Ngongba. Just because Ngongba is backing up the five, that doesn't mean that Brown isn't playing alongside him, nor does it rule out Brown taking a few minutes solo at the five from time to time in a small ball lineup.

That's similar to what Scott is saying, but unlike Scott, I'm going to add the brief coaching history we have for Jon Scheyer. In his first year as a coach, Ryan Young started at the five, while Flip almost exclusively played the four. Once Lively got sufficiently experienced, Young's minutes dropped, and Flip stayed at the four. Lively/Young combined for 38.2 mpg that year. Last season, Flip played almost exclusively at the five, and Ryan backed him up. Between the two of them, they played a combined 42.2 minutes. The point being, Scheyer has consistently shown that he wants someone playing the post at all times. For all that Brown filled in there for Syracuse last season, the post is not his natural position, and Scheyer really wants a big body in there, to the point of playing Ryan Young there a lot, a fact which drew many howls of protest on this very board. I think there's a pretty good chance that Maluach/Ngonba between them average something like 35+ min., and Brown slides down to the five for just a few minutes each game as a stop-gap, just as it happened in the only two seasons worth of data we have on this coach.

Of course, it could be that Scheyer wasn't thinking that way at all, and he was reading the lineup in a completely different way than I just described it. I don't know the guy, and I have no idea what his True Thoughts were on
I fully acknowledge that I could be completely mistaken.

I agree with sentence number one. I think Maluach will have some problems staying on the floor. I am agnostic about the second, at least partially because I don't think it is necessary to define the problem as either Brown or Ngongba. Just because Ngongba is backing up the five, that doesn't mean that Brown isn't playing alongside him, nor does it rule out Brown taking a few minutes solo at the five from time to time in a small ball lineup.

That's similar to what Scott is saying, but unlike Scott, I'm going to add the brief coaching history we have for Jon Scheyer. In his first year as a coach, Ryan Young started at the five, while Flip almost exclusively played the four. Once Lively got sufficiently experienced, Young's minutes dropped, and Flip stayed at the four. Lively/Young combined for 38.2 mpg that year. Last season, Flip played almost exclusively at the five, and Ryan backed him up. Between the two of them, they played a combined 42.2 minutes. The point being, Scheyer has consistently shown that he wants someone playing the post at all times. For all that Brown filled in there for Syracuse last season, the post is not his natural position, and Scheyer really wants a big body in there, to the point of playing Ryan Young there a lot, a fact which drew many howls of protest on this very board. I think there's a pretty good chance that Maluach/Ngonba between them average something like 35+ min., and Brown slides down to the five for just a few minutes each game as a stop-gap, just as it happened in the only two seasons worth of data we have on this coach.

Of course, it could be that Scheyer wasn't thinking that way at all, and he was reading the lineup in a completely different way than I just described it. I don't know the guy, and I have no idea what his True Thoughts were on post play. But it sure looks to me like Coach will prefer a true center playing every game, and Brown has not shown himself to be that guy.

I fully acknowledge that I could be completely mistaken.

Best sentence of the entire thread!

 

[Norman Pfyster]

You know, you could always go watch some Syracuse games from last year to see him play, and decide if you are comfortable with Maliq guarding big guys.