MBB: Duke 89, SMU 62 Post-game Thread

What a great game! Just wanted to throw that in there before doing the DBR thing and digressing/wading into the Caleb Foster derailment.
Like Jeremy Roach, Quinn Cook, Nolan Smith and so on, Foster suffers from the "have to be a point guard to make it in the NBA" trope. That is, if you aren't super tall, super athletic or a Curry-level shooter, that's the only thing you can sell to NBA teams. And the college teams these players come to also have the dilemma of needing to make (and at least try to keep) promises that this option is available to the player if they come to that school. So you see players flailing around trying to be something they're not, and only really succeeding when they finally give up and focus more on what they can do well.
As an aside I see that Foster is listed at 6'5" on the Duke roster. Now, admittedly he is often standing next to some very tall people, but looking at him, especially moving in the open court, he is clearly about 6'1" at best.
And he is definitely not a point guard. Last year when he played point he did more to stop Duke's offense than a lot of opposing defenses. He'd bring the ball up, then stop at the top of the key and dribble and look around. Then dribble some more and look around some more. When he did make a pass, it was usually nothing exceptional, and he was not capable of coming down the court and passing on the fly.
The things we are seeing him do well are not point guard things. He and the team would be better served by embracing an off-guard offensive role, and gain draft, NIL and portal interest by doing the things that he can do well, well.
 
Its only been 1 year but my early hot take is that the 2023 will go down as the worst class in the last 25 yrs. Collier, Wagner, Bradshaw and Edward's were concensus top 5 guys. 1 of those guys got drafted (30th), 1 went undrafted and the other 2 transferred. Thats unheard of. You had top 10 guys like Mgbako and Xavier Booker come back for yr 2. Elliot Cadeau was ranked 12th? and looks like a 4 yr player. I dont think being ranked 20th really means all that much. We all know what caused these guys development to be stalled. With that said like you said I hope he continues to develop and grow while in Durham.
I don't think this is an especially hot take. NBA draftniks were calling the '24 draft class the worst in decades a year or more before the actual draft. Only a handful of high school class of '23 guys doing anything remotely of note in the association this year (Jared, Yves Missi, Stephon Castle, maybe Bub Carrington.... is that it?), and none of them really starring other than that brief tear Jared went on while Maxey was out.
 
As an aside I see that Foster is listed at 6'5" on the Duke roster. Now, admittedly he is often standing next to some very tall people, but looking at him, especially moving in the open court, he is clearly about 6'1" at best.
Sorry, no. Boopie Miller is 6', and Foster just towered over him. Don't forget that Tyrese is taller than 6'5" (the announcers were saying 6'6" during the broadcast, and I can believe that). I'm willing to buy the notion that Foster isn't quite 6'5", but he's not less than 6'3" for sure, and probably not less than 6'4". Foster does not "play tall", probably because he's used to matching up to his teammates. But he's got plenty of size.

I agree with your main point that Foster is not a natural point guard. He's a lot like Roach that way, in that whenever he looks to penetrate the defense, his mind is on scoring. Passing is an afterthought. He's getting better at looking for the pass, but he still doesn't really see the whole floor, the way a guy like Miller does. Miller can score the ball fine, but he is also quite a dangerous passer, as he showed yesterday. Foster was in the game for 17 minutes, but of the team's 22 assists, only one of them came from Caleb. He also didn't turn the ball over, though, so the control was very good. Having said that, it was a really solid game for Foster, and I liked what I saw. It just wasn't true point guard stuff.
 
Sorry, no. Boopie Miller is 6', and Foster just towered over him. Don't forget that Tyrese is taller than 6'5" (the announcers were saying 6'6" during the broadcast, and I can believe that). I'm willing to buy the notion that Foster isn't quite 6'5", but he's not less than 6'3" for sure, and probably not less than 6'4". Foster does not "play tall", probably because he's used to matching up to his teammates. But he's got plenty of size.

I agree with your main point that Foster is not a natural point guard. He's a lot like Roach that way, in that whenever he looks to penetrate the defense, his mind is on scoring. Passing is an afterthought. He's getting better at looking for the pass, but he still doesn't really see the whole floor, the way a guy like Miller does. Miller can score the ball fine, but he is also quite a dangerous passer, as he showed yesterday. Foster was in the game for 17 minutes, but of the team's 22 assists, only one of them came from Caleb. He also didn't turn the ball over, though, so the control was very good. Having said that, it was a really solid game for Foster, and I liked what I saw. It just wasn't true point guard stuff.
I recall Scheyer saying Caleb is really 6'4" in one of the preseason podcasts. I'll take Jon's word for it, especially given he is 6'5" himself.
 
Back to the discussion of Foster. I agree that he has seemed to slip a bit this year, though he is maybe working his way back. And I agree that James has been a great contributor. I was puzzled by the comment, though, that Foster really wants to play at 2. I thought that Roach really wanted to play at 1 rather than 2. So, if that was the case, why didn't they keep Roach at the end of last year, let him be the 1, and let Foster go or focus on 2? To be clear, I am glad Foster is here, but they had a natural point guard in Roach that wanted to play point. I am clearly missing some information here.
Doesn't a "natural point guard" have to pass some time? Jeremy was really hurting Tyrese's play, and Caleb's too, if he hadn't been injured.
 
Its only been 1 year but my early hot take is that the 2023 will go down as the worst class in the last 25 yrs. Collier, Wagner, Bradshaw and Edward's were concensus top 5 guys. 1 of those guys got drafted (30th), 1 went undrafted and the other 2 transferred. Thats unheard of. You had top 10 guys like Mgbako and Xavier Booker come back for yr 2. Elliot Cadeau was ranked 12th? and looks like a 4 yr player. I dont think being ranked 20th really means all that much. We all know what caused these guys development to be stalled. With that said like you said I hope he continues to develop and grow while in Durham.
Cadeau is a bad comparison choice. He went to 4-years-and-die university
What a great game! Just wanted to throw that in there before doing the DBR thing and digressing/wading into the Caleb Foster derailment.
Like Jeremy Roach, Quinn Cook, Nolan Smith and so on, Foster suffers from the "have to be a point guard to make it in the NBA" trope. That is, if you aren't super tall, super athletic or a Curry-level shooter, that's the only thing you can sell to NBA teams. And the college teams these players come to also have the dilemma of needing to make (and at least try to keep) promises that this option is available to the player if they come to that school. So you see players flailing around trying to be something they're not, and only really succeeding when they finally give up and focus more on what they can do well.
As an aside I see that Foster is listed at 6'5" on the Duke roster. Now, admittedly he is often standing next to some very tall people, but looking at him, especially moving in the open court, he is clearly about 6'1" at best.
And he is definitely not a point guard. Last year when he played point he did more to stop Duke's offense than a lot of opposing defenses. He'd bring the ball up, then stop at the top of the key and dribble and look around. Then dribble some more and look around some more. When he did make a pass, it was usually nothing exceptional, and he was not capable of coming down the court and passing on the fly.
The things we are seeing him do well are not point guard things. He and the team would be better served by embracing an off-guard offensive role, and gain draft, NIL and portal interest by doing the things that he can do well, well.
What basis do you have to say that Foster is 6'1'? That is ridiculous without a reliable source. Duke may inflate height by using shoes on heights, but I know of no evidence of gross misstatement of player height (except Hack Tyson shrinking from being 6'11" rather than 7+'). If you have such evidence please Link it.

SORRY, this post has multiple quotes that are not intended. Using my phone and keyboard sensitivity bites me on the butt.
 
Not sure if anyone missed me, but if so apologies. Holiday season was demanding my attention, haha.

I’m sure I’ll echo what a lot of you have said, but for me yesterday’s game had everything we could want.

Fast start? Check.
Dominant Cooper? Check.
Kon finding his shot? Check.
ManMan being an imposing defensive force? Check.
Signs of life from Caleb and Mason? Check.
A real 9 man rotation? Check.

That may have been the most comfortable road Q1 win we’ve had in years. Even in the first half when SMU cut it below 5 a couple times it never really felt like they were threatening. That’s something that we haven’t experienced for a little while.

Quick turnaround for what, by the numbers, may be our toughest home game of the season Tuesday. But if we play like we did yesterday I don’t think anyone would pick against us, or even take the spread.
 
Cadeau is a bad comparison choice. He went to 4-years-and-die university

What basis do you have to say that Foster is 6'1'? That is ridiculous without a reliable source. Duke may inflate height by using shoes on heights, but I know of no evidence of gross misstatement of player height (except Hack Tyson shrinking from being 6'11" rather than 7+'). If you have such evidence please Link it.
To review the Tyson-Buckley shrinkage: in the mimeographed programs of 1961-1962, FR Hack Tyson was listed as 7-0 and SO Jay Buckley at 6-11. The following year they were both listed at 6-10. Dean understated height to erode confidence in the other team once play started. Didn't he list Brad Daugherty at 6-11, when he was truly taller.
 
Responding to no one in particular, but reiterating the point (no pun intended), in the context of the Caleb commentary, that basketball at all levels has been trending away from having a single primary ballhandler and playmaker for many years now. This year's Duke team lacks one and yet is assisting on 58.8% of its made FGs (66.7% yesterday), which is the highest level of any Duke team in the data set that KenPom tracks (back to the 1996-97 season). Comparative figures for our 2001, 2010 and 2015 teams were 57.6%, 52.8% and 53.5%, respectively.

Now that is largely reflective of the wealth of playmakers we have on the roster this year - Cooper, Kon, Sion, Tyrese and Caleb are all capable of initiating and creating in the half court. Next year may very well be a different story, depending on who winds up going and coming. But the idea that we need Caleb or anyone else to be a "pure" or "true" PG seems premature at best, and likely off the mark simply given the way the game has evolved.

Wrt to Caleb in particular, I think he is fairly similar to Roach in that he penetrates well against most defenders but seems to lack the vision and anticipation to be a high assist generator. I do think Caleb is a good natural finisher at the rim and pull-up shooter, though he has seemed less decisive and effective in those respects so far this year. I am hopeful that is just a slump that he has played through and may be emerging from, and that his decision making (and assist rate) can improve simply from the better structure and flow that have been evident in our offense over the past few games.
 
I thought he made a mistake with the lineup of Foster, Evans, Kon, Gillis, and Brown early in the first half.

Too much bench, IMO and SMU came back within maybe four points? I can't recall Jon going with four bench players with no Cooper so early in a game.
Agree, hard to defend a bigger team without either ManMan or Coop in the game.
 
Not to throw cold water on an impressive display but I can't help but remember the away Pitt game last year, where Duke looked as dominant as they did yesterday, yet Pitt came back and beat them in that horrible game at Cameron where the Pitt guy taunted our crowd. That is the kind of game I worry about this season.
 
Sorry, no. Boopie Miller is 6', and Foster just towered over him. Don't forget that Tyrese is taller than 6'5" (the announcers were saying 6'6" during the broadcast, and I can believe that). I'm willing to buy the notion that Foster isn't quite 6'5", but he's not less than 6'3" for sure, and probably not less than 6'4". Foster does not "play tall", probably because he's used to matching up to his teammates. But he's got plenty of size.

I agree with your main point that Foster is not a natural point guard. He's a lot like Roach that way, in that whenever he looks to penetrate the defense, his mind is on scoring. Passing is an afterthought. He's getting better at looking for the pass, but he still doesn't really see the whole floor, the way a guy like Miller does. Miller can score the ball fine, but he is also quite a dangerous passer, as he showed yesterday. Foster was in the game for 17 minutes, but of the team's 22 assists, only one of them came from Caleb. He also didn't turn the ball over, though, so the control was very good. Having said that, it was a really solid game for Foster, and I liked what I saw. It just wasn't true point guard stuff.
Who know but it seems Foster has much shorter arms than Proctor despite being close in height
 
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