MBB: Duke 86, Notre Dame 78 Postgame Thread

As others have said, it's so frustrating to watch Duke games with Bilas on the call. He feels anti-Duke in an apparent effort to not be a homer. The discussion around the double technical was particularly bad from both Shulman and Bilas; DS on Markus Burton "He didn't do anything." Um, he slapped a dead ball out of Cooper's hands, instigating the whole thing. I need to find an alternate audio feed.
That was incredibly annoying and that is why I don't like him on Duke games.
 
Why wasn’t a technical called on the ball slap? That should be a technical.
It certainly could have been. Then when Man Man came over it forced the issue. It was Burton's 4th and he had to go to the bench for a while. ND wins this game if Man Man hadn't forced the double tech. I kid.
 
It seems like having an extremely dominant team for the first time in a while is messing with people's minds a little bit to make some strange arguments such as players that are not as good should play more than good players or winning blowouts and close games may teach us the wrong lesson.

I think we are all scared of the upset/letdown but let's enjoy the team we have!
 
Re: Evans vs. Foster

I think playing Foster over Evans is still the correct move for now. It’s more important to the team overall that Foster plays well. He still has a more versatile offensive skill set than Evans. Evans is really only in there to make shots. Right now, he just doesn’t give you anything else at an above average level. If he hits one, okay, keep him in there. But he wasn’t hitting.

Also, the main issue with Foster is his confidence, and taking away even more minutes from him would surely damage that even further. He has to play through whatever he’s going through. I don’t believe in him as a starter level player, but he’s better than this.

You have to always remember that we are 1 Sion or Tyrese injury from needing Caleb to play huge minutes. He has to play better.
 
Re: Evans vs. Foster

I think playing Foster over Evans is still the correct move for now. It’s more important to the team overall that Foster plays well. He still has a more versatile offensive skill set than Evans. Evans is really only in there to make shots. Right now, he just doesn’t give you anything else at an above average level. If he hits one, okay, keep him in there. But he wasn’t hitting.

Also, the main issue with Foster is his confidence, and taking away even more minutes from him would surely damage that even further. He has to play through whatever he’s going through. I don’t believe in him as a starter level player, but he’s better than this.

You have to always remember that we are 1 Sion or Tyrese injury from needing Caleb to play huge minutes. He has to play better.
I think Evans is a better player now and would be a better player by a lot at the end of the year if he got Foster’s minutes.
 
That was not my original post.

My first post was whether Kon deserves 34 minutes.

My next response was what does Kon do besides make shots. I assumed that would be interpreted as it was meant, apparently not. My point was to ask for an explanation for what does Kon do to deserve almost three times as many minutes as Evans. It does not show in the stats. Evans has better stats as a shooter than Kon I realize sometimes stats do not reflect intangibles.

I went on to say that Kon is an excellent player and is more skilled than Evans.

I have no idea why some think I am dogging Kon whose game I like a lot. I am concerned that Evans is not getting the time he needs when he may be important in March.
There’s more to basketball than just shooting. You’re also asking for more mins for a guy who hasn’t scored in thr m
Re: Evans vs. Foster

I think playing Foster over Evans is still the correct move for now. It’s more important to the team overall that Foster plays well. He still has a more versatile offensive skill set than Evans. Evans is really only in there to make shots. Right now, he just doesn’t give you anything else at an above average level. If he hits one, okay, keep him in there. But he wasn’t hitting.

Also, the main issue with Foster is his confidence, and taking away even more minutes from him would surely damage that even further. He has to play through whatever he’s going through. I don’t believe in him as a starter level player, but he’s better than this.

You have to always remember that we are 1 Sion or Tyrese injury from needing Caleb to play huge minutes. He has to play better.
agree that Caleb has more versatile skill set offensively. But when you’re shooting less than 30% from 3 and less than 60% from the line I’m not sure that helps.

Some posters claim Caleb is in a shooting slump. I think he’s probably just not a great shooter. His career free throw percentage seems to suggest that. And as many know, free throw percentage and three point percentage are usually correlated.

You say that Evans doesn’t give us anything above average but shooting.

In your opinion, what does Caleb do that’s above average?
 
Also, the main issue with Foster is his confidence, and taking away even more minutes from him would surely damage that even further. He has to play through whatever he’s going through.
Agreed that he needs to play through this…the confidence isn’t going to regenerate on its own without playing (and, in fact, not playing may amplify the confidence deficit).

What I’m seeing (but I may be projecting) is that CJS is trying to find opportunities for CFos to come into the game and get some run but not put the game at risk. Recently, I’m seeing CFos come in while Sion is still in, allowing CFos to get some minutes and perhaps focus on what he’s best at in an effort to start regenerating the confidence: running PG is not his strength right now, so deferring that to Sion may depressurization the minutes he gets while also not putting the game at risk with Sion being the primary floor general.

Maybe I’m just seeing things…oftentimes that’s good, but sometimes not.
 
So let's see if I can summarize...

Is there any player more overrated than Kon Knueppel? Been bad from 3 more often than not, not a great individual defender, but people insist he's the 2nd best player on this team both now and in terms of NBA career.

Is there any player more underrated than Kon Knueppel? 13 points, 3 rebounds, 3 assists, great as the ball handler in pick and roll, but people insist he should be benched for Darren Harris.

As a Braves fan the discourse around K2 reminds me of the way we talk about Brian Snitker. He's either the best ever or the worst ever and there seems to be no in-between allowed. May I submit that Kon is neither as good as his super fans believe, nor as bad as the haters think?
While I agree that K2 is one of our best players and a sure starter for all of the things he contributes in games, he was an absolute dumpster fire in the closing minutes of yesterday's game. Those two facts are not contradictory. And I agree, there is a logical reasoning behind keeping him on the floor (learn to play yourself out of your mess, keep a great FT shooter on the court, etc.). That said, there's also a logical reasoning behind perhaps taking him off the floor, at least for a bit (let him take a breather and get his head together, put someone in who is perhaps playing with a bit more focus right now, etc.).

As others have said, it's so frustrating to watch Duke games with Bilas on the call. He feels anti-Duke in an apparent effort to not be a homer. The discussion around the double technical was particularly bad from both Shulman and Bilas; DS on Markus Burton "He didn't do anything." Um, he slapped a dead ball out of Cooper's hands, instigating the whole thing. I need to find an alternate audio feed.
Yeah, that segment in their commentary was baffling and frustrating to listen to. Jay: "If a guy [Maluach] comes up to you and bumps you, shouldn't you be able to respond?" As I said aloud to my television [baffling my kids and wife, who asked who I was talking to]: "But, Jay—Maluach's bump was a response to Burton slapping the ball out of Cooper's hands. The bump was inappropriate, just as the slapping of the ball out of the hands was inappropriate—thus the double technical, dip***t!" (my use of the profanity is probably what prompted my wife to ask who I was talking to, as she was likely wondering which of our kids I was calling a dip***t...)
 
It seems like having an extremely dominant team for the first time in a while is messing with people's minds a little bit to make some strange arguments such as players that are not as good should play more than good players or winning blowouts and close games may teach us the wrong lesson.

I think we are all scared of the upset/letdown but let's enjoy the team we have!
I've given up trying to comprehend why some fans feel compelled to find fault with the coaches' strategy and personnel decisions, even when it's working fine. At the game yesterday, the fellow sitting next to us -- who seemed to be a huge Duke fan attending his first game in person -- turned to his buddy with a giant smile when timeout was called with about 4.5 minutes left and Duke leading by 18: "That's it -- Scheyer's putting in the subs." I turned to him and said, as politely as I could, that Scheyer wouldn't likely take out the starters just yet. When he looked puzzled, I explained that I would expect the coaches to use this opportunity to get the starters some valuable experience managing a late-game situation, and also to try keeping Notre Dame's scoring in check for the purpose of maintaining Duke's favorable defensive metrics with an eye towards qualifying for a #1 seed. After ND proceeded to go on a 14-1 run to narrow the margin to 4 points, our neighbor looked over at me and nodded, saying: "Now I see why he left the starters in."

No coach is infallible, of course. But no coach is prescient, either. There were plenty of times when I wanted to wail loudl,y and rend my garments at some of K's decisions about personnel and game strategy. But over time, I came to realize that he was making far more informed choices; and more often than not, his Duke team ultimately would end up winning, even if it wasn't always free of nervous, frustrating moments for us fans.

It's perfectly fine for us to express opinions about which players should be getting more or less playing time -- that's what message boards like this are intended to facilitate. But I think we should never lose sight of two facts: First, that the coaches know more about the players' day-to-day potential to contribute to the success of the team than any of us; and second, that none of us is more motivated to see Duke succeed than the players and coaches themselves. So far, I think these coaches and players are doing a fabulous job; and while we engage in speculation and debate about the way it's all unfolding and how it might be done differently, I hope that everyone who cheers for Duke will enjoy and appreciate the special season we're fortunate to be witnessing.
 
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So far, I think these coaches and players are doing a fabulous job; and while we engage in speculation and debate about the way it's all unfolding and how it might be done differently, I hope that everyone who cheers for Duke will enjoy and appreciate the special season we're fortunate to be witnessing.
The bolded part seems to pretty much apply to any Duke basketball season (some certainly more than others). As sports fans, we're pretty spoiled (and I say that not to denigrate, but to point out how unique it is that we cheer for a program that is just so consistently... spectacular).
 
If you’re comparing Kon to Evans he does almost everything better than Evans. He’s a better passer, a better defender, a better ball handler, he’s’ smart, he’s steady, Kon initiates the offense a lot. Runs the pick and roll well and lobs to Maluach. 2 man game with Flagg.

Kon does a lot more that just shoot. I’m surprised someone would ask this question. He makes a lot of smart plays. I think he also rebounds pretty well for a 2/3
kshep answered better than i was going to.

It seemed like we got stagnant waiting around for Cooper to hit 40 and all of the sudden it was down to just a 10 point lead. Hopefully we learned a lesson.

I feel badly for Foster, but at this point he has become a huge ball stopper. I think he has the ability to shoot and drive, but he is most effective off ball IMO. I think he fills the same role as Evans... a scoring guard off of the bench, albeit a better driver and not as good a shooter. Despite their performances today, both guys, Evans and Foster, can easily put up 20 points. We may need to call on one or the other at some point in the future to do so.
neither guy has ever put up 20 pts while at Duke.
Please square that Kon is the best 3-pt shooter in practice with your other belief that players earn minutes in practice, given that Evans is a better 3P shooter in games. You can't, because performance in practice is not equivalent to potential performance in games. This isn't debatable, just logical.

I'm fine with Kon roughly getting his current minutes. Would like to see Jon avoid K's practice of reducing the lineup to 6.5 guys. Evans and Harris both need to play significant minutes in games for this team to weather inevitable injuries, foul trouble, and extended slumps from the current core group of players. Foster unfortunately has had way more games to show what he brings to the court and it's not enough.
In the last 3 games Evans has shot 0-5 from 3. Now that teams are ready for him it is highly debatable whether he is a better 3pt shooter than Kon.
Neither Harris nor Evans has shown he can handle the ball, nor drive the ball and score. I think Foster's defense is as good or better than Evans' and is miles better than Harris'.
It seems you and I agree on this. I think Caleb should get about as many minutes as Patrick Ngongba. Well, I may reconsider that if Maliq is out for a while. I'll say Harris instead. I think the Caleb experiment should come to an end. His defense is no better than Isaiah's. If Isaiah is fouled, he has a much better chance of making FTs. No matter how hard I root for him game in and game out, he's not getting any better. Maybe Caleb will read my post, and he'll have another good game. Like when I compared him to Alex O'Connell.

GoDuke!
Although i think Big Pat should get a look for more minutes, I think Caleb needs to continue getting minutes at least as a ball-handler to take some stress off the other guards. At minimum that is worth 10mpg.
Coach Shrewsberry: "[Cooper Flagg]'s a good player, right? It wasn't as much him, it's everything that happens around him. He manipulates the defense, but he's a good passer. So, he hurts you. You have to try and take away certain things. This goes way back to 2011, when I was at Butler and we were playing Duke with Kyrie Irving -- the shooting that they had around him, the lob threats they have around him; Cooper's an unbelievable player, but Kon [Knueppel] makes him better, Tyrese Proctor makes him better. Khaman [Maluach]. He makes them all better. If you can't just sit in a stance and focus on Cooper, then you're at his mercy. And now he's driving. Now he's drawing 13 fouls. He's on the free throw line. He shot more free throws than our team. The other guys, they got the right mix of guys with him. If they had him and they didn't have shooting, or they had people that needed the ball and were ball dominant, then they probably wouldn't work. But they've done a good job evaluating and finding the right people to put around him, so it makes him a really tough matchup."

He just articulated what I've been thinking for months (and I'm sure it's not just me): Jon Scheyer knew that 2024-2025 was the Cooper Flagg Season, and that any offseason changes were about building a team around him, and not simply adding him to who was there. It was a near-perfect effort of roster construction; the only nitpick is that Coach Scheyer didn't quite get the backcourt depth he needed. He did try in the portal with Braeden Smith (Colgate to Gonzaga) and Derin Saran (UC Irvine to Stanford), and maybe there were others he pursued.
it certainly looks that way now, but Jon thought that Foster would perform better this year than he has. Not only did Jon think Caleb was a starting PG, he continues to see him as the primary backup guard. Although i didn't see Caleb that way, i did not foresee him playing as poorly as he has been, and i guarantee you CJS didn't either. I don't think we'd be talking about backcort depth if Caleb was playing at the same level he played last year.
My next response was what does Kon do besides make shots. I assumed that would be interpreted as it was meant, apparently not. My point was to ask for an explanation for what does Kon do to deserve almost three times as many minutes as Evans. It does not show in the stats. Evans has better stats as a shooter than Kon I realize sometimes stats do not reflect intangibles.
It's also worth keeping in mind that all of Kon's minutes are coming against all of the best teams we've played and against their starters. Isaiah hasn't played against all of our best opponents, and in several games did not play a single second against the opponents' best lineup, and in the 3 most recent games (all of them conference games) Evans is 0-5 from 3. I bring these things up to point out that perhaps Evans' excellent shooting percentages are in part due to playing against a) inferior opponents b) non-starters of the better teams c) was a complete surprise to opponents the first couple of times he went off and d) now that he is no longer a surprise his shooting performance will suffer due to defensive efforts.
Why wasn’t a technical called on the ball slap? That should be a technical.
As mentioned by others, i think it was in fact called a technical.
 
While I agree that K2 is one of our best players and a sure starter for all of the things he contributes in games, he was an absolute dumpster fire in the closing minutes of yesterday's game. Those two facts are not contradictory. And I agree, there is a logical reasoning behind keeping him on the floor (learn to play yourself out of your mess, keep a great FT shooter on the court, etc.). That said, there's also a logical reasoning behind perhaps taking him off the floor, at least for a bit (let him take a breather and get his head together, put someone in who is perhaps playing with a bit more focus right now, etc.).
100% this! I am in the camp that it would have been reasonable to take him out of yesterday’s game in the last five minutes. That does not mean I think Evans, Foster, or Harris, are better players or would have contributed more. Kon was struggling and a breather might have helped. I’ve read all the comments about him in this thread. Maybe I missed it but I don’t think anyone was criticizing him as a player. Clearly there are some very strong Kon supporters. At the same time others should be able to share reasonable observations about his struggles or question his PT when he struggles.
Yeah, that segment in their commentary was baffling and frustrating to listen to. Jay: "If a guy [Maluach] comes up to you and bumps you, shouldn't you be able to respond?" As I said aloud to my television [baffling my kids and wife, who asked who I was talking to]: "But, Jay—Maluach's bump was a response to Burton slapping the ball out of Cooper's hands. The bump was inappropriate, just as the slapping of the ball out of the hands was inappropriate—thus the double technical, dip***t!" (my use of the profanity is probably what prompted my wife to ask who I was talking to, as she was likely wondering which of our kids I was calling a dip***t...)
 
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So Scheyer should play Evans more because he's not as good as Kon? Do I have this right?
I’m not sure if this has been addressed between this post and where mine will land, but respectfully, that’s really a silly comment. The idea is not to play the worse player, the idea is that we’re good enough to win most games with the guy that’s not quite as good as the other guy, so give the not quite as good guy more minutes now to make him better later. Then in the tough part of the season -2nd unCheats game, ACCT and NCCAT- we have two guys that are really good and experienced, rather than just one. Same concept with Harris and Big Pat. Now C-Fos presents a conundrum because he comes with a pretty good deal of experience, but I think the same concept applies except tweaked to help him play through his current struggles, tho I do think Evans should get some of the minutes he’s getting now. IMO, as long as the drop off isn’t too steep, we will benefit from a deeper bench, especially so we can keep pushing the defensive intensity. My $0.02.

Go Duke! 9f!!
 
There’s more to basketball than just shooting. You’re also asking for more mins for a guy who hasn’t scored in thr m

agree that Caleb has more versatile skill set offensively. But when you’re shooting less than 30% from 3 and less than 60% from the line I’m not sure that helps.

Some posters claim Caleb is in a shooting slump. I think he’s probably just not a great shooter. His career free throw percentage seems to suggest that. And as many know, free throw percentage and three point percentage are usually correlated.

You say that Evans doesn’t give us anything above average but shooting.

In your opinion, what does Caleb do that’s above average?

Some fans are in love with Isaiah Evans shooting. I get it. It's electric. But he hasn't made a 3 in the last three games - albeit in fairly limited minutes.

And Caleb Foster is playing very poorly - zero confidence and he looks lost out there compared to the guy who was 10-1 as our starting PG last year and who shot 40% from 3 on the season

But let's compare their non-scoring numbers this season. There are stats for this. Here are their numbers on a per 40 min basis.

Isaiah: 2.7reb, 1.7ast, 1.7to, 0.0stl, 1.9 DBPM
Caleb: 4.2reb, 3.5ast, 2.1to, 1.9stl, 5.0 DBPM

It's fair to challenge the DBPM metric as a measure for defense but our top 3 guys are Maliq, Cooper, Sion, so I would argue it's at least directionally accurate at this point in the season.

And just for kicks, here are Foster's per 40 numbers last year.

Caleb (2024): 3.8reb, 3.4ast, 1.7to, 0.9stl

So aside from the 3pt shooting, even as badly as Foster has played, he's contributed more on offense and defense.

If Isaiah could make 50%+ of his 3s then absolutely play him 20-25 min per game. But we are seeing him come back down to earth with defenses now keying on him. (0-5 from 3 while Foster is 1-5 from 3 in the past three games).

So Jon is continuing to play Foster in an attempt to get his confidence back because he can impact the game in a lot more ways when he is playing well. At some point he could pull the plug - he was running Coop/Kon/Mason together some for a second game - but he hasn't given up on Caleb playing better yet.
 
For the love of God, this Evans/Kon debate with a few die hard people on each side is really sucking the fun and frankly the friendliness in this group. Do people really need to go 5 rounds to prove they are right? Stop torturing dead horses.

And seriously it has nothing to do with post game at this point - why don't y'all awesome people open your Evans or Kon thread - in fact there was a strategy thread or something?
 
For the love of God, this Evans/Kon debate with a few die hard people on each side is really sucking the fun and frankly the friendliness in this group. Do people really need to go 5 rounds to prove they are right? Stop torturing dead horses.

And seriously it has nothing to do with post game at this point - why don't y'all awesome people open your Evans or Kon thread - in fact there was a strategy thread or something?
To be fair you also have the option to scroll past.
 
It's perfectly fine for us to express opinions about which players should be getting more or less playing time -- that's what message boards like this are intended to facilitate. But I think we should never lose sight of two facts: First, that the coaches know more about the players' day-to-day potential to contribute to the success of the team than any of us; and second, that none of us is more motivated to see Duke succeed than the players and coaches themselves. So far, I think these coaches and players are doing a fabulous job; and while we engage in speculation and debate about the way it's all unfolding and how it might be done differently, I hope that everyone who cheers for Duke will enjoy and appreciate the special season we're fortunate to be witnessing.
Amen. There are a lot of smart basketball fans on this board but Jon knows WAY more about the team and players than any of us could possibly guess. That at least is why I am almost always on the side of trying to understand or defend his decisions vs second guessing them...
 
For the love of God, this Evans/Kon debate with a few die hard people on each side is really sucking the fun and frankly the friendliness in this group. Do people really need to go 5 rounds to prove they are right? Stop torturing dead horses.

And seriously it has nothing to do with post game at this point - why don't y'all awesome people open your Evans or Kon thread - in fact there was a strategy thread or something?
To me these player debates are super interesting because you know our coaches are having the same debates.

Personally I don't think they are discussing Kon vs Evans.

But I'm sure they are debating Evans vs Foster, Ngongba vs Flagg for backup 5 minutes with Brown out, and they are also looking at Kon moving up to guard for some minutes with Mason on the wing. I hadn't picked up on that last one until I debated kshep and azz about it... 🤓 Yes, they were right and I was wrong.
 
I’m not sure if this has been addressed between this post and where mine will land, but respectfully, that’s really a silly comment. The idea is not to play the worse player, the idea is that we’re good enough to win most games with the guy that’s not quite as good as the other guy, so give the not quite as good guy more minutes now to make him better later. Then in the tough part of the season -2nd unCheats game, ACCT and NCCAT- we have two guys that are really good and experienced, rather than just one. Same concept with Harris and Big Pat. Now C-Fos presents a conundrum because he comes with a pretty good deal of experience, but I think the same concept applies except tweaked to help him play through his current struggles, tho I do think Evans should get some of the minutes he’s getting now. IMO, as long as the drop off isn’t too steep, we will benefit from a deeper bench, especially so we can keep pushing the defensive intensity. My $0.02.

Go Duke! 9f!!
I will admit my comment was a bit flip, but I had a point— that it was strange to argue, after a close game that Duke could have lost, that Evans should get minutes at the expense of Kon and then to say that Evans has a higher ceiling than Kon because Evans is not as strong in some of the fundamentals.

Five people liked my comment, so they apparently agreed with some part of it.

Also, why on earth do we need to have another thread obsessing on Isaiah’s playing time?
 
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