MBB: Duke 72, KU 75 Post-game Thread

[jafarr1]

“You’re never as bad as you are after a loss and never as good as you are after a win” should be changed to “We aren’t as bad as our board pessimists make us out to be but aren’t as good as our board optimists believe either.”

As for me I think that as long as we continue to live in an “Eternal November” (i.e constantly turning over a very young team reliant on underclassmen) we have a ceiling in today’s portal era. A high ceiling, but not as high as most of us would want.

Speaking for myself, I am neither a board optimist or pessimist. I do not know where we end up this year. I only know what we have seen to this point, like all of us.

Last night I saw a team playing better than we did against Kentucky, with plenty of building blocks and potential, with resiliency and strong defense and moments of brilliance. I also saw the various problems that we all did, but some were caused by a very good Kansas team and a fair number of them are very coachable. Heck, better spacing and not getting caught in all those double-teams alone probably win us that game.

I suspect individual players and the team in general will show substantial improvement by March, but maybe Flagg continues to struggle in late-game situations, maybe Kon doesn't figure out how to shoot three's in big games, maybe Scheyer's coaching choices do not bear out, etc. None of us have a crystal ball. In previous seasons I have been surprised in good and bad ways in how the season progressed.

For the record, I have zero problem with people discussing what they see have been problems. I just see too many people making definitive pronouncements on the potential of individual players, this team, and the program in general based upon some early-season results. Problems can be fixed, players can go through rough patches and recover. I do wish that a number of people would approach their criticisms more constructively and less definitively, keeping in mind that what happens one game can frequently be corrected for future games, but that is a faint hope for a message board.

Also for the record, I would be in about the same place if Kon had hit two more three's against Kansas and Flagg had handled two possesions better against Kentucky. It is November. Destroying Kentucky in November with Zion and Barrett didn't guarantee us a Final Four run; two close November games don't say anything about a potential Final Four run, except for minor seeding implications (and I will agree to disagree with those who think the seeding implications are more than minor).

 

[gillmic]

I don't get the negative views on Tyrese Proctor. He's easily our best 3-point shooter (sorry K-2) and outside of the transfers, the most experienced. Does Jon take him off the 2-guard and give up that weapon? I think Jon had visualized Foster as the team's go-to-point-guard in the offseason, however that has been a really bad move. Last night sort of proved that as he only got 15 minutes. Sion is clearly out playing him.

I really like Proctor, including potentially as the PG again. Maybe not a traditional PG, but the guy who helps to orchestrate and get the offense going, especially if we start running more sets, which I think we need. Those sets could include getting him more looks from 3pt, especially if our opponents try to defend him with their own PG's (who will generally be shorter). Maybe this is a bad take on my part. I don't know basketball as well as CJS, and very few on this board do.

Cooper's turnovers. I wish Jon would show him video of himself with that Flip spin move in traffic. Matter of fact show him video of Flip last season with that spin move.

It's starting to give me indigestion and diarrhea. Besides Flip's body language, his spin move was my least favorite part of his game. It rarely led to a good outcome. Now that Coop is doing it way too often, it's just not sitting well with me; the outcomes have not been good, and it stinks a little bit of hero ball (fair or not). One of the key things that Coop can bring to the table is opening things up for the rest of the team because he will get double-teamed, and we need to exploit that by getting the ball to whomever is open.

 

[gillmic]

My hope is Evans improves in practice enough that he can come in and use his offense. End of games situations would look much different if he was on the floor.

We needed a 3 pointer on the last play of the game. Not sure why somebody like Evans or Foster wasn't in the game instead of Maluach (who has hit a 3 this season, but I wouldn't rely on that).

 

[Bluedog]

We needed a 3 pointer on the last play of the game. Not sure why somebody like Evans or Foster wasn't in the game instead of Maluach (who has hit a 3 this season, but I wouldn't rely on that).

I think it's because there was still sufficient time for a quick pass and shot (2+ seconds left). So, you can have Maluach as a quick outlet up top who quickly passes to a nearby shooter. If it was <1 second, then it's catch and shoot and Maluach can't really factor into the play. At least, that's a plausible argument.

I was okay with the last play - it was quite well executed to get beyond half court and do the timeout, and then a difficult but possible shot that almost went in.

I was not okay with the two offensive plays before that - not getting shots off and just TOs (Cooper, K2). Those are much more painful to me as we didn't even have a chance.

 

[gillmic]

Proctor: I have found the decision to move Tyrese (far) off-ball a curious one all along. The early-season line from broadcasters (presumably based on what they were hearing from the coaching staff) was that it was about maximizing Proctor’s best skill, his catch-and-shoot game. And while that has thus far yielded dividends, it has always seemed to me that it overlooks the fact that Proctor is (by far, IMO) Duke’s best passer.

Foster:
But, again, I have high hopes for Foster — and it’s important to keep in mind that last night was just his 33rd college game; he played less than half of available minutes last year. Expectations for him are high in part on the premise that he’s an experienced player, but his actual game experience is comparable to that of a late-season freshman.

Kon/Flagg: unlikely to generate many mismatches on switches, as both players will often be defended by relatively similar defenders.

Love these specific points that you made.

 

[brevity]

@Chasentwo: Welcome to DBR. I was fine with the rest of your post, but I have to respond to this portion:

4) The below is extremely concerning…

Duke basketball over the last year:

UNC - Loss
NC State - Win
UNC - Loss
NC State - Loss
NC State - Loss
Kentucky - Loss
Kansas - Loss

It looks like Scheyer can’t get these guys over the hump continually.

If you think those are Duke's last 7 games, or even Duke's last 7 games on an important stage, then I'm extremely concerned that you may be experiencing lost time.

Please let me be there (from a safe distance) when you explain to the fan bases of Houston and Arizona that their losses to Duke either never happened, or just weren't important.

I feel like you could have made a similar point -- maybe there's a limit to how far Coach Scheyer can take a team against strong opponents -- by including a more thorough list of games. You included the win over NC State in Raleigh, but not the loss to Wake Forest in Winston-Salem? It's a bizarre sample.

 

[bshrader]

As we speak, Gonzaga is about to get knocked off by West Virginia.

Probably the wrong thread for this post, but just wanted to give some perspective on the season.

It's November. Take a breath and relax.

 

[DoubleBlue]

I dunno what is going on around here these days but this thread is super weird.

Too many ridiculous hot takes. Others clamoring for things that make little sense. Others focused on and making definitive statements about NCAAT seeding before Thanksgiving. Kon defenders and detractors who have to get a word in edgewise. It's all rather exhausting. I find myself considering the ignore button for the first time in my DBR career.

We played a game Kansas squad with arguably the best coach in the biz. It was a pretty high level affair that we ultimately came up short on. There were numerous things to be encouraged about and numerous things to work on. On balance, our young freshmen will learn a lot from this game and appeared to play better than their 2nd half against UK, which already points to potential learnings. Our coaching staff isn't dumb or ignorant and will be working on improving the team in the ways they see fit. I also believe Jon has a slightly different mindset in terms of how he manages the season arc, seemingly not wanting to build in or show every offensive wrinkle until later on in the season - he's alluded to this in pressers that I've heard.

I'm obviously not thrilled about the loss but I've watched enough college hoops in my life to understand this isn't a devastating loss. Nor is this team a lost cause. There are a lot of puzzle pieces that are sitting around waiting to be plugged together. Some will work, some won't. But we will continue to try to fit them together. It's November. This is how it goes. It's not always an easy, predictable, up-and-to-the-right team progression. Let the race be run.

- Chillin

Thanks, Chillin.
There seems to be quite a lot of negativity here after a 3-point early season loss to the #1 ranked team.
Perhaps some of these posters are just setting low expectations for themselves to prevent future disappointment?
To each his own, but I'm glad we also have some voices of reason who take a more balanced perspective.

 

[Chasentwo]

Speaking for myself, I am neither a board optimist or pessimist. I do not know where we end up this year. I only know what we have seen to this point, like all of us.

Last night I saw a team playing better than we did against Kentucky, with plenty of building blocks and potential, with resiliency and strong defense and moments of brilliance. I also saw the various problems that we all did, but some were caused by a very good Kansas team and a fair number of them are very coachable. Heck, better spacing and not getting caught in all those double-teams alone probably win us that game.

I suspect individual players and the team in general will show substantial improvement by March, but maybe Flagg continues to struggle in late-game situations, maybe Kon doesn't figure out how to shoot three's in big games, maybe Scheyer's coaching choices do not bear out, etc. None of us have a crystal ball. In previous seasons I have been surprised in good and bad ways in how the season progressed.

For the record, I have zero problem with people discussing what they see have been problems. I just see too many people making definitive pronouncements on the potential of individual players, this team, and the program in general based upon some early-season results. Problems can be fixed, players can go through rough patches and recover. I do wish that a number of people would approach their criticisms more constructively and less definitively, keeping in mind that what happens one game can frequently be corrected for future games, but that is a faint hope for a message board.

Also for the record, I would be in about the same place if Kon had hit two more three's against Kansas and Flagg had handled two possesions better against Kentucky. It is November. Destroying Kentucky in November with Zion and Barrett didn't guarantee us a Final Four run; two close November games don't say anything about a potential Final Four run, except for minor seeding implications (and I will agree to disagree with those who think the seeding implications are more than minor).

Yep this is fair enough….

I think the bigger point for me is I kind of see Scheyer’s early success in year 1 as a carry over from the discipline and excellence to basic fundamentals that Coach K created and left as the standard.

It’s not unusual for a program to have instant success when some of the discipline is loosened to a degree from a successor. However, it’s not sustainable long term….and that’s what I feel like I’m seeing.

People will rightfully point to year 1 and an ACC championship and I understand that.

Scheyer has to show me he can do that on his own and compete for a NC on his own now that he’s further removed from Coach K’s guys.

I’m not advocating to move on from Jon…but I do want to see him make some changes and I’m not sure we see him evolving as a coach.

 

[Nugget]

A few too many turnovers in this game, and an inability to get defensive rebounds to close out possessions even with Dickinson out of the game. I thought some of that also came down to the way we allowed Kansas’ guards to dictate things even after the ejection.

I think we’ll continue to get better offensively, the Kon-Cooper pick and roll looked really good in the second half. But defensively we were scrambling a bit too much and didn’t look totally connected out there, even Cooper made mistakes trying to defend too aggressively.

Agree with everyone who feels our offense should have more sets with Cooper off the ball and setting screens. Having him isolate, as good as he can be, doesn’t work against a packed defense if he doesn’t have a reliable jump shot and/or the ability to make reads when drawing double and triple teams.

Well said on all of this. Also, as others have mentioned, KJ Adams and Harris were great. Really looked like Srs. who've been through everything and made our guys look young.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Yep this is fair enough….

I think the bigger point for me is I kind of see Scheyer’s early success in year 1 as a carry over from the discipline and excellence to basic fundamentals that Coach K created and left as the standard.

It’s not unusual for a program to have instant success when some of the discipline is loosened to a degree from a successor. However, it’s not sustainable long term….and that’s what I feel like I’m seeing.

People will rightfully point to year 1 and an ACC championship and I understand that.

Scheyer has to show me he can do that on his own and compete for a NC on his own now that he’s further removed from Coach K’s guys.

I’m not advocating to move on from Jon…but I do want to see him make some changes and I’m not sure we see him evolving as a coach.

So happy to hear you aren't advocating we move on from Jon. You are showing great patience and I'm sure he appreciates you going him more time to improve upon his failings.

 

[Bull City Proud]

Thoughts:

1. It is an early season game against an equal. We battled them til the end. This will tough up the team.

2. We won’t win many games when Kon shoots 0-8 from 3. I hope he finds his shot soon.

3. Flagg is great, but loses the ball dribbling into heavy traffic in the middle. Need to address this.

4. What is Khaman’s role? He seemed like a ghost today.

5. Tyrese and Maliq were great. And Maliq got hosed on more than one call. He is one of the best defensive players out there. And he made a 3!

6. I think we are on par with any team in the country. We are also young and should grow more than other squads. I like this team.

Duke has no point guard . Can’t win at any level without one . Foster should not start. Brown needs more minutes. Proctor needs to play the point. The team relies too much on two talented freshmen. Maliq was MIA last night. James should play 20 minutes every game in my opinion .duke has no leader either.
Jon great recruiter, not a good X and O ‘s coach . Jon seems to not be able to handle pressure in game .
Long season ahead .

 

[szstark]

As we speak, Gonzaga is about to get knocked off by West Virginia.

Probably the wrong thread for this post, but just wanted to give some perspective on the season.

It's November. Take a breath and relax.

I wonder if the Gonzaga board is in meltdown because they probably won’t get a #1 seed now?

 

[sagegrouse]

Yep this is fair enough….

I think the bigger point for me is I kind of see Scheyer’s early success in year 1 as a carry over from the discipline and excellence to basic fundamentals that Coach K created and left as the standard.

It’s not unusual for a program to have instant success when some of the discipline is loosened to a degree from a successor. However, it’s not sustainable long term….and that’s what I feel like I’m seeing.

People will rightfully point to year 1 and an ACC championship and I understand that.

Scheyer has to show me he can do that on his own and compete for a NC on his own now that he’s further removed from Coach K’s guys.

I’m not advocating to move on from Jon…but I do want to see him make some changes and I’m not sure we see him evolving as a coach.

Anyway, this is evolving into an interesting discussion. Jon has had two seasons. You seem to think that we did poorly -- or, not as well -- last season. Umm, we were 27-9 both seasons and last year beat the #1 seed in the NCAAs. Two incredible upsets by State -- all credit to the Pack -- prevented 2024 from being a "banner" year" times two.

I was personally ready for the program to move on from K. Rigid control of the program and playing time (Jack White sitting for ten games, etc.). No change or innovation, when the game is evolving. I thought Jon changed things up -- some good things, some less good. But I thought we needed some changes. And, when Jon proved to be a world-class recruiter and (apparently) a really good leader, I am happy to be patient.

And, to get to the moment, what would you or I do with a world-class talent like Cooper (and maybe Kon) except try some stuff early in the season and learn from it? Lack of true PG? That's way down my list, given the unused capabilities of Tyrese, Sion and Caleb and the ability of Coop (and Kon) to evolve as point forwards.

Anyway, it's early -- I would first try to figure out how to start faster in games, maybe with a lineup shift.

Thanks for sharing your opinions.

 

[JDNC64]

Some of the negativity on here is just over the top silly.

We are starting three freshmen. Six of our top eight players are newcomers. Amazingly, we have one of the top defenses in the whole country.

And not surprisingly at all, our offense is a work in progress - and will be all season. Our offense is good but not yet great.

As for our coaching? Well, it could be worse. We could be stuck with Dan Hurley who just coached his loaded team out of the top 25.

I can't help but picture all your posts as coming from a freshman in his dorm decked out head-to-toe in Duke gear!

 

[Chasentwo]

Anyway, this is evolving into an interesting discussion. Jon has had two seasons. You seem to think that we did poorly -- or, not as well -- last season. Umm, we were 27-9 both seasons and last year beat the #1 seed in the NCAAs. Two incredible upsets by State -- all credit to the Pack -- prevented 2024 from being a "banner" year" times two.

I was personally ready for the program to move on from K. Rigid control of the program and playing time (Jack White sitting for ten games, etc.). No change or innovation, when the game is evolving. I thought Jon changed things up -- some good things, some less good. But I thought we needed some changes. And, when Jon proved to be a world-class recruiter and (apparently) a really good leader, I am happy to be patient.

And, to get to the moment, what would you or I do with a world-class talent like Cooper (and maybe Kon) except try some stuff early in the season and learn from it? Lack of true PG? That's way down my list, given the unused capabilities of Tyrese, Sion and Caleb and the ability of Coop (and Kon) to evolve as point forwards.

Anyway, it's early -- I would first try to figure out how to start faster in games, maybe with a lineup shift.

Thanks for sharing your opinions.

Yeah but if you are looking at it from a coaching point of view…

We were going to lose against State in game 1 too but Scheyer put in Sean Stewart and he changed the entire game. He was giving DJ Burns total fits.

The next two games against State Burns absolutely was destroying us and Stewart barely touched the floor. If it wasn’t for him we wouldn’t have won the first game.

That being said it’s not a given that would have propelled us in the next two….but the point is….when we already saw how his quickness and athleticism affected Burns in game 1 and changed the game in our favor…..how do we play the next two and don’t put him in to see if he has the same impact again?

That’s a coaching decision that doesn’t make any sense to me…..

 

[FosterCoachK82]

[

Duke has no point guard . Can’t win at any level without one . Foster should not start. Brown needs more minutes. Proctor needs to play the point. The team relies too much on two talented freshmen. Maliq was MIA last night. James should play 20 minutes every game in my opinion .duke has no leader either.
Jon great recruiter, not a good X and O ‘s coach . Jon seems to not be able to handle pressure in game .
Long season ahead .

I enjoy a long season, especially when we have a great team.

 

[gillmic]

Maliq was MIA last night.

???

I had him as MOTM.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Duke has no point guard . Can’t win at any level without one . Foster should not start. Brown needs more minutes. Proctor needs to play the point. The team relies too much on two talented freshmen. Maliq was MIA last night. James should play 20 minutes every game in my opinion .duke has no leader either.
Jon great recruiter, not a good X and O ‘s coach . Jon seems to not be able to handle pressure in game .
Long season ahead .

Terrible take. You were the one arguing about a year ago that we'd be better off with Hubert or Dan Hurley as our coach. Pretty sure you just enjoy showing up and sowing chaos after losses. Hurley just coached his team right out of the top 25 - guess he can't handle game pressure either, huh?

 

[SkyBrickey]

I can't help but picture all your posts as coming from a freshman in his dorm decked out head-to-toe in Duke gear!

We've got the best young coach in the business. He went 27-9 in each of his first two seasons. That's outrageously good. Unprecedented. And he's got this young team playing as the #1 defense in the country.

So yeah, when there are ridiculous cheap shots on here at our coach, I'm going to call them out from my freshman dorm room.