Totally agree. In fact I hate when over-the-back is called when the player is the only one jumping. Dickinson's post leading to the shot, however, had an elbow and a shoulder drop that could have both been offensive fouls. Those created space which knocked Brown out of position to really contest the shot and get a clean block out, which led to his undercutting Dickinson, which was a foul. The kick also looked very intentional and was silly on Dickinson's part.
MBB: Duke 72, KU 75 Post-game Thread
- Thread starter -jk
- Start date
bluedevilwildcats
Member
My biggest disappointment with Jon isn't his Xs and Os or how he plays his bench but how he puts together his teams and assesses talent. This year like his two previous we don't have a true point guard. This year we don't have a low post scorer, we don't have multiple guys who can "get theirs," and we rely too much on frosh (and then say "we're young" as if we didn't have a choice in the matter.) And I don't think his talent assessment is all that great. We saw most of last year's frosh class get very few minutes and bail. Last year Caleb didn't show he could play point, and his advanced stats didn't scream sophomore starter on championship team, but we didn't grab a true PG out of the portal. We have the #13 recruit who is now averaging less than 5 minutes per game whereas the average for top 20 recruits is 22 minutes. Mason has shown very little and it doesn't seem like he's a good fit for what this team needs.
So we have elite talent but are missing some key pieces and we'll play 7.5 guys in competitive games, until we have an injury and play starters the entire game.
I'm not seeing Jon learning which is probably my biggest concern.
So we have elite talent but are missing some key pieces and we'll play 7.5 guys in competitive games, until we have an injury and play starters the entire game.
I'm not seeing Jon learning which is probably my biggest concern.
Why are you asking bshrader? It is widely known that dhurley is the preeminent expert on this subject.
Others could stand to improve too, but Cooper and Tyrese combined for 8 of the team's 16 turnovers. Kon was next with 3, but he had 8 assists, initiated much of the playmaking, and his third turnover was really a shot attempt which he had second thoughts about after initiating (so it wasn't really an example of sloppiness).
Perhaps more importantly, Cooper's inability to deal with the double teams without turning it over seemed to take him out of the game offensively for a long stretch. That's not necessarily all on him - part of that is preparation and team awareness.
A few observations on the game. The hot takes continue after a loss. I'm not talking about constructive criticisms but those who seem to think the season is over.
For those who are down on Kon, it's evident that the good teams, especially Kentucky and Kansas have defended Kon very well. Some of his shots have come from way outside the local zip code. It's that or the pressure is higher, and he's not prepared for that. The 8 assists were great, but he did have 3 turnovers (one big one). He, Proctor (4) and Cooper (4) had 11 of the teams 16.
I don't get the negative views on Tyrese Proctor. He's easily our best 3-point shooter (sorry K-2) and outside of the transfers, the most experienced. Does Jon take him off the 2-guard and give up that weapon? I think Jon had visualized Foster as the team's go-to-point-guard in the offseason, however that has been a really bad move. Last night sort of proved that as he only got 15 minutes. Sion is clearly out playing him.
Another disappointment has been Mason's terrible 3-point shooting. I think Jon thought he would shoot the ball like he did at Purdue. I guess having a good 7"4" center helped get him open looks.
Cooper's turnovers. I wish Jon would show him video of himself with that Flip spin move in traffic. Matter of fact show him video of Flip last season with that spin move.
I think this team is a really good one, and with some adjustments by the coaching staff, it can be a great one. Someone needs to be the playmaker and not Foster. Is it Kon? Will that keep him from getting his shot back against really good teams? Is it Proctor who is our best 3-point shooter at this point? I thought it was going to be Cooper, but he's not done it very well. Especially at the end of games. Whatever it's going to take, the coaching staff better act quickly as Auburn is coming soon and even though it's in Cameron, they are not a pushover.
GoDuke!
For those who are down on Kon, it's evident that the good teams, especially Kentucky and Kansas have defended Kon very well. Some of his shots have come from way outside the local zip code. It's that or the pressure is higher, and he's not prepared for that. The 8 assists were great, but he did have 3 turnovers (one big one). He, Proctor (4) and Cooper (4) had 11 of the teams 16.
I don't get the negative views on Tyrese Proctor. He's easily our best 3-point shooter (sorry K-2) and outside of the transfers, the most experienced. Does Jon take him off the 2-guard and give up that weapon? I think Jon had visualized Foster as the team's go-to-point-guard in the offseason, however that has been a really bad move. Last night sort of proved that as he only got 15 minutes. Sion is clearly out playing him.
Another disappointment has been Mason's terrible 3-point shooting. I think Jon thought he would shoot the ball like he did at Purdue. I guess having a good 7"4" center helped get him open looks.
Cooper's turnovers. I wish Jon would show him video of himself with that Flip spin move in traffic. Matter of fact show him video of Flip last season with that spin move.
I think this team is a really good one, and with some adjustments by the coaching staff, it can be a great one. Someone needs to be the playmaker and not Foster. Is it Kon? Will that keep him from getting his shot back against really good teams? Is it Proctor who is our best 3-point shooter at this point? I thought it was going to be Cooper, but he's not done it very well. Especially at the end of games. Whatever it's going to take, the coaching staff better act quickly as Auburn is coming soon and even though it's in Cameron, they are not a pushover.
GoDuke!
Sparky2004
Member
Boom, nailed my thoughts. On to the next one boys.
Dr. Maturin
Member
I mentioned upthread that the close losses don't bother me much. Here's a comparison. In Jon's first year, we got smacked by Purdue in Portland. Last year, we were soundly outplayed by a bad Arkansas team on the road. Both games sent a clear message that Duke was not up to the standards of a title contender.
By comparison, I don't feel that way at all about our two losses this year. We look like a contender, to me. I'm disappointed in how we finished those games, but a lot of that is correctable error. Even with those mistakes, it took two very good teams having good shooting nights to barely beat us.
The one longer term concern I have is with Caleb Foster. Jon made the bold move of anointing him the point guard. Unfortunately, Caleb hasn't taken to that role yet. Jon played Sion in crunch time, and I wouldn't be surprised if he starts the next game. Duke has some time to figure things out, but we need Caleb to have a good season. On the plus side, Tyrese is thriving in his 3-and-D role. I think we need all of our guards to work harder at driving and creating. All of this relates to the overall connectivity of our pieces on offense. In year 1 and 2, Jon's teams made strides in that department. Hopefully this team will do the same.
By comparison, I don't feel that way at all about our two losses this year. We look like a contender, to me. I'm disappointed in how we finished those games, but a lot of that is correctable error. Even with those mistakes, it took two very good teams having good shooting nights to barely beat us.
The one longer term concern I have is with Caleb Foster. Jon made the bold move of anointing him the point guard. Unfortunately, Caleb hasn't taken to that role yet. Jon played Sion in crunch time, and I wouldn't be surprised if he starts the next game. Duke has some time to figure things out, but we need Caleb to have a good season. On the plus side, Tyrese is thriving in his 3-and-D role. I think we need all of our guards to work harder at driving and creating. All of this relates to the overall connectivity of our pieces on offense. In year 1 and 2, Jon's teams made strides in that department. Hopefully this team will do the same.
Next Day Observations:
Dickinson is an odd mix - soccer player (instigating, diving and gaslighting) - Blutarsky from Animal House - Pistons Laimbeer - Chloe from Pitch Perfect. I assume he’ll have his PhD before leaving the safe confines of KU. That being said, he’s got a healthy mix of Laettner too, in terms of hustle and confidence/arrogance. if he were at Duke - who knows - we’d probably be backing the dude. He’s a good talent for the college fame. It’s too bad for him and Kansas that he gets so focused on winning the pull-into-the-mud-game and trying to trick the refs. He’s too good a talent and effective when he just plays basketball. No doubt the refs discussed his blatant arm hold to get a bogus call at halftime and I believe he was trending for a redirect and he cross the line (first with the blatant over the back flop and residual bottom of the shoe to the face). Frankly, once he was ejected, I thought Duke was at risk because the rest of the team passed and created space confidently and with ease. They exposed Cooper and Kon who overplayed passing lanes for easy alley oops and open threes. Kansas guards made decisive passes and shots, and clearly are a very good team even without their center.
K is a shooter who is young and just needs to keep on shooting. Shooter needs to shoot. It’s unfortunate he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn for threes — but he needs to keep on shooting WHEN he has space. Pulling up off the dribble flat footed in the lane means he’s in jail and the size of players in college are forcing him to make poor choices. Get a floater pop threes — shoot when there is space. Otherwise his facilitation of the basketball and rebounding were good.
I loathe the NBA hero ball where the “star” gets the ball and dribbles against a clear out and shoots at the buzzer. Yes it might make too 10 on sportscenter and become an epic reel bookend but in reality, the probably make that shot 1 out of 7 times. Just stop. Cooper is 17, and clearly gets nervy and loses the ball on incidental body contact at the end of the game. He will get there by the end of the season - and may excel at the clutch shot - but let’s look at better designed plays so at least he’s not having to over dribble. He’s clearly phenomenal at the pick and roll.
Malauch was way underutilized. And it wasn’t because of Kansas D. They were hyper focused on Cooper. Feed the post and let him play inside. Yes I feel the refs were allowing a lot of contact. But he likes contact and can tire out defenses and rack up their fouls.
Proctor needs to get involved earlier with the three — overall had a solid game.
And preaching here but get the bench more involved, go deeper, and get them in earlier especially against more seasoned teams. Knock em around a bit.
Duke almost pulled off a squeaker against #
1 on neutral court. Bodes well. Most definitely Kansas will be in the same half of the bracket as Duke in the NCAAs. Can’t wait for the rematch.
Dickinson is an odd mix - soccer player (instigating, diving and gaslighting) - Blutarsky from Animal House - Pistons Laimbeer - Chloe from Pitch Perfect. I assume he’ll have his PhD before leaving the safe confines of KU. That being said, he’s got a healthy mix of Laettner too, in terms of hustle and confidence/arrogance. if he were at Duke - who knows - we’d probably be backing the dude. He’s a good talent for the college fame. It’s too bad for him and Kansas that he gets so focused on winning the pull-into-the-mud-game and trying to trick the refs. He’s too good a talent and effective when he just plays basketball. No doubt the refs discussed his blatant arm hold to get a bogus call at halftime and I believe he was trending for a redirect and he cross the line (first with the blatant over the back flop and residual bottom of the shoe to the face). Frankly, once he was ejected, I thought Duke was at risk because the rest of the team passed and created space confidently and with ease. They exposed Cooper and Kon who overplayed passing lanes for easy alley oops and open threes. Kansas guards made decisive passes and shots, and clearly are a very good team even without their center.
K is a shooter who is young and just needs to keep on shooting. Shooter needs to shoot. It’s unfortunate he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn for threes — but he needs to keep on shooting WHEN he has space. Pulling up off the dribble flat footed in the lane means he’s in jail and the size of players in college are forcing him to make poor choices. Get a floater pop threes — shoot when there is space. Otherwise his facilitation of the basketball and rebounding were good.
I loathe the NBA hero ball where the “star” gets the ball and dribbles against a clear out and shoots at the buzzer. Yes it might make too 10 on sportscenter and become an epic reel bookend but in reality, the probably make that shot 1 out of 7 times. Just stop. Cooper is 17, and clearly gets nervy and loses the ball on incidental body contact at the end of the game. He will get there by the end of the season - and may excel at the clutch shot - but let’s look at better designed plays so at least he’s not having to over dribble. He’s clearly phenomenal at the pick and roll.
Malauch was way underutilized. And it wasn’t because of Kansas D. They were hyper focused on Cooper. Feed the post and let him play inside. Yes I feel the refs were allowing a lot of contact. But he likes contact and can tire out defenses and rack up their fouls.
Proctor needs to get involved earlier with the three — overall had a solid game.
And preaching here but get the bench more involved, go deeper, and get them in earlier especially against more seasoned teams. Knock em around a bit.
Duke almost pulled off a squeaker against #
1 on neutral court. Bodes well. Most definitely Kansas will be in the same half of the bracket as Duke in the NCAAs. Can’t wait for the rematch.
BluDvlsN1
Member
We were at the game. Good seats for court viewing. Just something that may not have been apparent on TV, K, was getting regular timeout printouts of the game data I suppose. An assistant would deliver it as K was directly across the court from the bench.
Just one guy’s opinion.
Game: Kansas defense overall was exceptional,
not many clean looks for the 3 ball.
Dickerson should have had 3 fouls in the first 8 minutes of game time. Two handed pushing, grabbing and moving pics.. Dickerson’s ejection was for a kick to the head and warranted.
I agree with much of what has been posted on the game here. I agree with the upside approach.
I see Scheyer as being Brad Stevens esque, in comportment and that’s a compliment.
Seth Greenberg made a comment about refs and human nature regarding Danny Hurley. I think there is merit in it. Intentionally or subconsciously it probably is a factor to a degree in some calls/ non calls.
Scheyer, has taken over a blue blood program from a hall of fame coach, he doesn’t command the respect yet of that position. He will earn it.
He was coaching against a hall of fame coach and the calls seemed inconsistent at times, Bill Self was working the ref’s big time.
We’re young and didn’t handle the physical contact well.
2 major early season road games on a 5 day road trip. Impressive.
They hung tough and didn’t back down, huge upside, a lot to look forward too.
Next play.
Go Duke!
Just one guy’s opinion.
Game: Kansas defense overall was exceptional,
not many clean looks for the 3 ball.
Dickerson should have had 3 fouls in the first 8 minutes of game time. Two handed pushing, grabbing and moving pics.. Dickerson’s ejection was for a kick to the head and warranted.
I agree with much of what has been posted on the game here. I agree with the upside approach.
I see Scheyer as being Brad Stevens esque, in comportment and that’s a compliment.
Seth Greenberg made a comment about refs and human nature regarding Danny Hurley. I think there is merit in it. Intentionally or subconsciously it probably is a factor to a degree in some calls/ non calls.
Scheyer, has taken over a blue blood program from a hall of fame coach, he doesn’t command the respect yet of that position. He will earn it.
He was coaching against a hall of fame coach and the calls seemed inconsistent at times, Bill Self was working the ref’s big time.
We’re young and didn’t handle the physical contact well.
2 major early season road games on a 5 day road trip. Impressive.
They hung tough and didn’t back down, huge upside, a lot to look forward too.
Next play.
Go Duke!
Well, what's required for an "over the back" call (which, again, isn't even in the rulebook, but for purposes of the rules discussion I'll just refer to it as that) is actual contact AND displacement. So in this case, the offensive rebounder (Dickinson) is going to have to knock Brown out of his position with contact and displacement. And that position for Brown is going to have to be more of a natural rebounding position. The official in this case calls the foul on Brown cause his boxout technique isn't really "natural" and he's making contact with Dickinson while he's airborne. IMO, the correct call.
scottdude8
Moderator, front page and podcast contributor
I was just working on my piece for the front page and was drawn to exactly this comparison. Jon created a GAUNTLET for this year’s squad to navigate to start the year. Playing as poorly as we did to start both the Kansas and Kentucky games, lesser Duke teams would’ve gotten blown out (and have in each of the last two years). This year we could’ve/would've/should’ve won both contests. There are no moral victories, but given the reality that young teams tend to improve more over the course of a long season, I think IF we learn from these experiences (which is an IF), similar contests might not come down to the final possessions in March.
Oh yea, I totally agree that officials (myself included) do not adjudicate the offensive fouls, like that play, properly. Its very simple, by rule. If the offensive player initiates the contact, and the defensive player is in a legal guarding position (LGP), and the offensive player displaces the defensive player, then it should be an offensive foul, by rule. And it isn't called enough.
Native
Member
Agree here—the scouting report on Cooper coming into the season was that his shooting was his weakness. Based on the eye test, I have more concerns about his handle than his shooting, which has not been stellar from 3, but fine from midrange. His turnovers have been steadily increasing—two in each of our first two games, then three in the next two games, and now four each versus Arizona and Kansas.
DukieInKansas
Well-known member
Do you gave any thoughts on Dickerson sitting in the bench so long after being ejected?
Agree, do you think Jon needs to make some changes after the first 3 tough games and if so, what do you suggest. Please don't sugar coat it.
GoDuke!
Dickinson was 4 for 11 from the field. Hardly had his way with us along with being DQ’d. (I thought after an F2 disqualification you got escorted to the locker room.)
Chicago 1995
Member
Yeah. That was a foul on Maliq.
The minute of officiating after booting Dickinson was maybe as bad a minute of officiating as you'll see all year, but that was a foul on Maliq.
kshepinthehouse
Member
Explain that to me. Our guy got kicked in the head and then the refs punished us for it.
And three turnovers. Like others have said, there's little reason to think Kansas would have played better if Dickinson had stayed in the game.
Great perspective thanks for sharing. At one point during the broadcast it showed him reviewing stats on paper and handing it to his wife. I had a feeling he’d be there. Got a sense he enjoys blackjack and Vegas based on some past comments. Was good to see him there. Last comment: the announcers were a breath of fresh air. Newsflash: they talked about the actual game and not themselves. And they actually took a breath to let the game unfold and to … breath too. I could hear the fans and the whistle and could get into the game more. And they were objective. At one point one of the announcers actually said “I’ll shut up now” — and did — so we at home could enjoy the basketball experience and not the announcers own continuous TikTok. THANK YOU. And good job.We were at the game. Good seats for court viewing. Just something that may not have been apparent on TV, K, was getting regular timeout printouts of the game data I suppose. An assistant would deliver it as K was directly across the court from the bench.
Just one guy’s opinion.
Game: Kansas defense overall was exceptional,
not many clean looks for the 3 ball.
Dickerson should have had 3 fouls in the first 8 minutes of game time. Two handed pushing, grabbing and moving pics.. Dickerson’s ejection was for a kick to the head and warranted.
I agree with much of what has been posted on the game here. I agree with the upside approach.
I see Scheyer as being Brad Stevens esque, in comportment and that’s a compliment.
Seth Greenberg made a comment about refs and human nature regarding Danny Hurley. I think there is merit in it. Intentionally or subconsciously it probably is a factor to a degree in some calls/ non calls.
Scheyer, has taken over a blue blood program from a hall of fame coach, he doesn’t command the respect yet of that position. He will earn it.
He was coaching against a hall of fame coach and the calls seemed inconsistent at times, Bill Self was working the ref’s big time.
We’re young and didn’t handle the physical contact well.
2 major early season road games on a 5 day road trip. Impressive.
They hung tough and didn’t back down, huge upside, a lot to look forward too.
Next play.
Go Duke!