Investment Thread

Meta struck a $27 billion financing deal with Blue Owl Capital. Meta's largest-ever private capital agreement, to fund its biggest data center project in Richland Parish, Louisiana, known as "Hyperion."

“Meta has struck a $27 billion financing deal with Blue Owl Capital to fund its biggest data center project globally, as large technology companies race to build out the infrastructure needed to power their artificial intelligence ambitions.

Tuesday's announcement marks Meta's largest-ever private capital deal. Under it, Meta will retain about 20% equity in the Louisiana project, with the majority owned by funds that alternative asset manager Blue Owl Capital. Blue Owl contributed roughly $7 billion in cash to the joint venture, with Meta receiving a one-time payout of about $3 billion.”

 
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This is not particularly relevant to markets and bubbles, but I think it presents a really nice way to think about AI (and it's from 10 years ago):


The computer and AI situation today makes the single AI class I took at Duke 20+ years ago seem antique and quaint! What I firmly believe is that regardless of whether or not LLMs specifically end up developing into any kind of greater or artificial general intelligence, we need a lot more computing power (and memory, and energy, etc.) to get there. Exponentially more. There is so much money being poured into AI research today, and so much money being poured into global computing capacity, that I plan to be long NVDA and other chipmakers for the foreseeable future. (I bought AMD in January of this year--maybe my best trade ever! Full disclosure, I also bought INTC in early 2024 and it's only now _almost_ back to break even.)

Longtime lurker. I enjoy all of the insights. (I also usually consider myself to be a counter indicator, so get ready for an AI crash!)
Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

IMO, one of the better AI bets is to invest in the companies that are selling the pick axes to gold miners, so to speak. OpenAI, Meta, et al are all hell-bent on building data center capacity, and they have the market power to attract the capital to do so.

There are dangers here, but I agree that NVDA and other chipmakers seem to be some of the safer bets in the AI space, as the major AI companies have the power to keep investing in data centers even if they hit tougher times.
 
IMO, one of the better AI bets is to invest in the companies that are selling the pick axes to gold miners, so to speak. OpenAI, Meta, et al are all hell-bent on building data center capacity, and they have the market power to attract the capital to do so.

There are dangers here, but I agree that NVDA and other chipmakers seem to be some of the safer bets in the AI space, as the major AI companies have the power to keep investing in data centers even if they hit tougher times.

Strongly agree! Two of my five largest positions are META and GOOG, but I’m also buying picks and shovels. For example, today I bought AMD.
 
TL;DR: I am not as bullish on AI's potential as many. I also believe investors are using AI's potential to overlook a number of market realities that would normally take the market in a different direction, and are using that potential to anticipate higher valuations for the larger market.

I have written before about my skepticism about AI's potential, at least in the near-term.
  • I believe AI has grabbed most of the low-hanging fruit. Dramatic improvements from here require the creation of different technologies.
  • The required computer power for any significant improvements will not be as easy to build as people think. The numbers are outlandish (see the article that kdogg posted above), we are starting to see NIMBYism, there are regulatory constraints, etc.
  • Monetizing AI is problematic. AI companies want market share, so they are limited in what they can charge.
  • Even if AI succeeds, a major difference between the AI boom and the tech boom is that the tech boom promised to (and did) create a whole new class of jobs, while if AI succeeds as its proponents envision, it will destroy far, far more jobs than it creates. This piece is roundly ignored.
Market realities, many of which have not fully been realized:
  • Inflationary pressures are inevitably going to weigh on the economy.
    • Tariffs have settled in at a minimum of 10% (with a handful of exceptions), which will be a permanent inflationary bump.
    • Electricity costs are going to continue to rise, between the government actively working to slow bringing renewable energy online and the increased demands from new data centers for AI.
    • Health care costs continue to rise, with no real end in sight.
    • etc.
  • The government has taken a heavy hand on its reporting of macroeconomic data, and seems to be settling into a pattern of releasing positive data for the current period while revising down data for previous periods. This means we are flying a bit blind, and likely are getting data that has been massaged to be rosier than it really is for political purposes.
  • We live in an age where companies have gotten very good at manipulating balance sheets to put up a good face for the market. I've seen some of this first-hand.
  • Challenges with different timelines of AI progress:
    • AI is successful in the short term: tons of jobs are destroyed. Job insecurity rises. Consumer spending plummets.
    • AI is successful in the medium term: AI companies have to navigate monetizing products while trying to capture market share, while investing a ton in data centers. Employees go through an extended period of wondering when their job will be eliminated by AI.
    • AI is successful in the long term: in the short term, the market punishes AI companies for their investments with no return.
    • In any of these cases, the rest of the market gets punished.
Put differently: there is no such thing as a free lunch, and I see a lot of free lunches. The market is at an all-time high despite some of these headwinds.

I think the market is buoyed by the following beliefs:
  • AI companies are going to become incredibly valuable, while AI is going to make a lot of companies more profitable. (My skepticism is outlined above.)
  • Rate cuts are a given. (Inflationary pressures make this trickier. Political pressure may force cuts to happen when they shouldn't, but this would eventually be another free lunch that needs to be repaid, along with any distrust this creates in the market.)
  • Where else are we going to invest? (This is bubble behavior to a T, though as I've written, I cannot discount that the growing wealth inequality may make the market a self-fulfilling prophecy for a while, because what else are the wealthy going to do with their money?)
I'll be interested to see what happens in January. I've been considering taking some profits in the new year to defer the taxes, and I wonder if there are others out there doing the same.

Thank you, very much! You make excellent points and layout your case well. It’s most appreciated!

I always learn much more from people who disagree with my opinions, than those who agree! I’m going to really reflect on your great post!
 
jafarr1 said:
I'll be interested to see what happens in January. I've been considering taking some profits in the new year to defer the taxes, and I wonder if there are others out there doing the same.

Please join us much more often! IMO, you’re adding great value to our discussions!
 
Meta struck a $27 billion financing deal with Blue Owl Capital. Meta's largest-ever private capital agreement, to fund its biggest data center project in Richland Parish, Louisiana, known as "Hyperion."

“Meta has struck a $27 billion financing deal with Blue Owl Capital to fund its biggest data center project globally, as large technology companies race to build out the infrastructure needed to power their artificial intelligence ambitions.

Tuesday's announcement marks Meta's largest-ever private capital deal. Under it, Meta will retain about 20% equity in the Louisiana project, with the majority owned by funds that alternative asset manager Blue Owl Capital. Blue Owl contributed roughly $7 billion in cash to the joint venture, with Meta receiving a one-time payout of about $3 billion.”

That's the company that froze withdraws when it tried to merge funds. Even this SEC raised an eyebrow. They were forced to call it off due to "market volatility." I've be weary of any Hotel California funds.




Also it seems to be Blue Owl building the data center and Facebook will be a tenant with a partial ownership. Meta could have done it alone through public debt at a cheaper rate but now Blue Owl carries most of the risk. Smart for Meta and one wonders what they know?
Also WTF Reuters? Where's that $27 billion USD figure come from? A press release because your article doesn't address it at all.


Not true, at all!
See the circular nature of AI funding. Maybe Steve (Triangle native to boot) can explain it better than myself. His bias is that he's pro consumer.

 
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Also WTF Reuters? Where's that $27 billion USD figure come from? A press release because your article doesn't address it at all.



See the circular nature of AI funding. Maybe Steve (Triangle native to boot) can explain it better than myself. His bias is that he's pro consumer.


I prefer getting my news from Reuters to YouTube videos. To each their own!

As I showed, META is borrowing for less than equivalent mortgage rates. Your information sources may be leading you astray?

The specific notes issued include:
$4 billion of 4.200% Senior Notes due 2030
$4 billion of 4.600% Senior Notes due 2032
$6.5 billion of 4.875% Senior Notes due 2035
$4.5 billion of 5.500% Senior Notes due 2045
$6.5 billion of 5.625% Senior Notes due 2055
$4.5 billion of 5.750% Senior Notes due 2065
 
“Exponential growth neglect is the human tendency to underestimate the final value of a process that grows exponentially, failing to grasp the impact of compounding. This cognitive bias leads to poor financial decisions, underestimation of disease spread, and underappreciation of problems like climate change, where a small, seemingly slow initial growth can eventually become immense.”

 
I prefer getting my news from Reuters to YouTube videos. To each their own!

As I showed, META is borrowing for less than equivalent mortgage rates. Your information sources may be leading you astray?

The specific notes issued include:
$4 billion of 4.200% Senior Notes due 2030
$4 billion of 4.600% Senior Notes due 2032
$6.5 billion of 4.875% Senior Notes due 2035
$4.5 billion of 5.500% Senior Notes due 2045
$6.5 billion of 5.625% Senior Notes due 2055
$4.5 billion of 5.750% Senior Notes due 2065
That YouTuber is one of the most plugged in person in the tech space. The kind that the tech companies keep a eye one. The nerds call him Tech Jesus.

From your article about Meta's bond sale: "The company's shares closed down more than 11% on Thursday, as investors mulled a 32% increase in costs outpacing a 26% revenue jump." It also bring up the question of Meta's debt levels. As of September they had $51.06 billion on the books. Problem is they had around that much off the books in SPVs (like Enron). They have plenty of cash mind you...a lot...but shareholders aren't going to like having to use that for anything that's not a dividend.

A breakdown of that deal with Blue Owl.


The big question after the labour force savings is "Who is going to pay to use AI?"
 
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From your article about Meta's bond sale: "The company's shares closed down more than 11% on Thursday, as investors mulled a 32% increase in costs outpacing a 26% revenue jump." It also bring up the question of Meta's debt levels. As of September they had $51.06 billion on the books. Problem is they had around that much off the books in SPVs (like Enron). They have plenty of cash mind you...a lot...but shareholders aren't going to like having to use that for anything that's not a dividend.

A breakdown of that deal with Blue Owl.


The big question after the labour force savings is "Who is going to pay to use AI?"

Nobody liked META either time I bought shares! Both times I stated I was doing so on this thread. IIRC, the first time I bought META was around 180 and the second time was when I doubled down around 100. My weighted average cost per share is around 140 and I’m not selling at 640. To each their own!
 
Full disclosure…. I did sell 27% of my total META position in the low 700’s. It was in a ROTH IRA (no capital gains taxes) and more than covered my total purchase prices. So, my remaining shares are total profit and I’m in no rush to sell any more. Let it ride!
 
Nobody liked META either time I bought shares! Both times I stated I was doing so on this thread. IIRC, the first time I bought META was around 180 and the second time was when I doubled down around 100. My weighted average cost per share is around 140 and I’m not selling at 640. To each their own!
My problem isn’t with Meta specifically. It’s with these instruments of financial engineering AI companies are using that are designed to hide the true level of debt. Unless you are a psycho and dig into the machinations of this things it wouldn’t raise flags. Well there I am. If everything is hunky dory why go to these exotic setups? These are cash rich companies. Why? Because their capEX spending is nearing the limits on what company cash flows alone can support. The good times blind people. These companies are all hoping that ignorance is bliss for their investors and that they will just care that line go up. It’s starting a dangerous and repeated trend. It goes back to my point that money isn’t real with AI. The released financials of many (not all) of these companies aren’t telling the real story and unless you are a detective most people will not bat an eye.

Here is a good explanation but it may be paywalled.


Debt isn’t the only way to fund the expansion. Big tech companies generate billions in profit that they reinvest in their own operations. Venture capital firms, sovereign wealth funds and private equity will also put money to work — mainly in firms that are still closely held — to the tune of $350 billion, according to Morgan Stanley estimates. That’ll be deals such as Anthropic’s equity raise of about $13 billion by firms like Iconiq Capital and Qatar Investment Authority.

But the rest — more than $1.15 trillion of capital — will be in the form of debt.

I can’t find it presently but BofA research had a paper last month about the flip from traditional debt financing to these exotic vehicles.

The problem with rising debt is that if things so south it’s not just these companies and their investors that will suffer. The damage will be socialized. You get the dreaded term “contagion” arising from the depths of past bubbles. With the levels out there it would be inevitable.


None of this is a problem unless there is a bubble. Financial engineering and it’s instruments don’t fall apart during the good times but their rise alone should be a warning sign. They might not necessarily be bad but the fact that these companies have to resort to them for financing should not instill confidence.
 
My problem isn’t with Meta specifically. It’s with these instruments of financial engineering AI companies are using that are designed to hide the true level of debt. Unless you are a psycho and dig into the machinations of this things it wouldn’t raise flags. Well there I am. If everything is hunky dory why go to these exotic setups? These are cash rich companies. Why? Because their capEX spending is nearing the limits on what company cash flows alone can support. The good times blind people. These companies are all hoping that ignorance is bliss for their investors and that they will just care that line go up. It’s starting a dangerous and repeated trend. It goes back to my point that money isn’t real with AI. The released financials of many (not all) of these companies aren’t telling the real story and unless you are a detective most people will not bat an eye.

Here is a good explanation but it may be paywalled.




I can’t find it presently but BofA research had a paper last month about the flip from traditional debt financing to these exotic vehicles.

The problem with rising debt is that if things so south it’s not just these companies and their investors that will suffer. The damage will be socialized. You get the dreaded term “contagion” arising from the depths of past bubbles. With the levels out there it would be inevitable.


None of this is a problem unless there is a bubble. Financial engineering and it’s instruments don’t fall apart during the good times but their rise alone should be a warning sign. They might not necessarily be bad but the fact that these companies have to resort to them for financing should not instill confidence.

Thank you, very much, for doing a great job explaining why you disagree with my beliefs! My blind spots have blind spots and I greatly appreciate you and your efforts to educate me on your viewpoints.

I’m a contrarian investor (and person) and I actually prefer when many disagree with me. It’s when everyone starts agreeing with me that I know I’m late for the door.
 
Less than 100 bps over Treasuries, from my fixed income portfolio management experiences, implies relatively low risk debt.

IMO, the following is the most important part of the article regarding my META and GOOG positions….

“Even as this trend has taken hold, the spread of the investment-grade bond markets over Treasuries, in aggregate, has gone from about 70 basis points to about 85 basis points today. I would anticipate that if the hyperscaler debt issuance theme continues, we could see spreads widen as much as 95 basis points, which is material when we’re talking about a relatively low volatility market,” he said.

All this extra debt has analysts trying to figure out where that extra risk will play out. They all agree that the chances of one of the big tech companies breaching a debt covenant is extremely small. They have masses of cash on their balance sheets.
 
From my experiences, the fixed income market is usually more efficient than the equity market. I greatly appreciate those here (especially, Kdogg!) who shifted my focus to the fixed income side of the equation. I was too foolish to do it on my own! 😂
 
All this extra debt has analysts trying to figure out where that extra risk will play out. They all agree that the chances of one of the big tech companies breaching a debt covenant is extremely small. They have masses of cash on their balance sheets.
Is that for that the companies carry or the SPV off there books? I agree for the former and don’t know for the latter.
 
[*]Even if AI succeeds, a major difference between the AI boom and the tech boom is that the tech boom promised to (and did) create a whole new class of jobs, while if AI succeeds as its proponents envision, it will destroy far, far more jobs than it creates. This piece is roundly ignored.
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Thanks, it’s definitely not ignored by me! The math I’ve seen focuses on revenue increases for ROI calculations. My own math (projected common size income statements) also include substantial operating expense reductions (particularly, compensation & benefits). I think many companies will be able to grow revenue substantially without increasing headcount!
 
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