Cornellian
New member
Sorry typo-- meant Jan 6!
Duke vs. Cornell?
- Thread starter mjnets524
- Start date
Sorry typo-- meant Jan 6!
Olympic Fan
Member
Duke-Cornell
Two things:
1. I doubt there's a return game, not even for a Paulus homecoming -- Coach K has said he doesn't play homecoming games for his players.
2. Didn't Duke hire former head football coach Tom Harp from Cornell? Not 100 percent sure on this one, but I think that's right. Harp had a 22-28-1 record in five seasons (1967-71) which doesn't look to bad today, but was the first step down the long slope from greatest under Wade and Murray to today's misery.
Two things:
1. I doubt there's a return game, not even for a Paulus homecoming -- Coach K has said he doesn't play homecoming games for his players.
2. Didn't Duke hire former head football coach Tom Harp from Cornell? Not 100 percent sure on this one, but I think that's right. Harp had a 22-28-1 record in five seasons (1967-71) which doesn't look to bad today, but was the first step down the long slope from greatest under Wade and Murray to today's misery.
Tom Harp, Ugh!
The best thing that happened during my days on the Hill that would be repeatable here is that Harp left Cornell I think after my freshman year, during which I made my bones coining the entreaty of all freshman, "Tro da ball, Tom, Tro da ball." He could recruit, at least for the Ivies, but was oh so unimaginative a coach.
Duke hosting Cornell and Albany; and I thought Cornell's having played Notre Dame in lax this season at my, and Siebald's, old high school on the Island was tops as a recruiting ploy.
The best thing that happened during my days on the Hill that would be repeatable here is that Harp left Cornell I think after my freshman year, during which I made my bones coining the entreaty of all freshman, "Tro da ball, Tom, Tro da ball." He could recruit, at least for the Ivies, but was oh so unimaginative a coach.
Duke hosting Cornell and Albany; and I thought Cornell's having played Notre Dame in lax this season at my, and Siebald's, old high school on the Island was tops as a recruiting ploy.
Bay Area Duke Fan
Member
weak schedule
I'd rather see us play Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona or UCLA. Our team needs more of a challenge to get ready for ACC and March. Why beat up on weak teams?
I'd rather see us play Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona or UCLA. Our team needs more of a challenge to get ready for ACC and March. Why beat up on weak teams?
hurleyfor3
Moderator
So in the last 20 years or so, the only Ivies we HAVEN'T played are Yale and Dartmouth. And I'm not 100% sure we haven't played Yale.
Stray Gator
Moderator
************
It's just a little a reminder from the Duke Athletic Department to all those Duke faculty members and administrators who love to wear their Ivy League college academic regalia like a badge of superiority at convocations and commencement ceremonies that "our honor students can beat up your honor students"...
Olympic Fan
Member
Harp
Good point, Jim.
I don't mean to trash Harp, who was a pretty nice guy, and far from a terrible coach. I believe he's the father in law and something of a mentor to current Miami coach Cam Cameron.
I got the dates wrong for Harp -- he was at Duke from 1966 to 1970 (not 67 to 71). He did run a wide-open offense. His QB in 1966 and 1967 was Al Woodall, who later played for the Jets, and he had a first-team All-ACC wide receiver in Dave Dunaway.
He recruited well too -- in 1967 he signed North Carolina's all-state quarterback in 4-A (Brad Evans, the Ron Curry of his day), 3-A (Leo Hart) and 1-A (Wes Chesson). Incidentally, the 2-A all-stater he missed with future ACC commissioner John Swofford, who went to UNC.
Harp also beat out Joe Paterno for QB Rich Searl. He also recruited Ernie Jackson -- Duke's first great black athlete (I don't think he was Duke's first black football player, who I think got hurt and never played). Jackson and Searl became part of the best secondary in Duke history -- Searl was a three-time All-ACC pick, Jackson was a first-team All-American and in 1971, Searl, Jackson and junior Bill Hanenburg were first-team All-ACC picks. The fourth starter, Mike Davies, led the ACC in interceptions!
I guess the game I remember most from the Harp era was in 1970. Duke was 5-2 with a 2-point loss at Florida and a respectable 34-10 loss at No. 1 Ohio State (Duke should have led at the half), plus a win at No. 11 West Virginia (coached by Bobby Bowden). Duke was playing Georgia Tech in Durham and spent most of the fourth quarter trailing 17-16, but in Tech territory and threatening over and over. With about a minute left, Tech intercepted a pass and returned it for a touchdown.
A very deflated Duke team lost to Wake Forest the next week and Harp was lucky to finish 6-5. It was his only winning season.
That was it for Harp. At the time, Duke made a big to-do about how they had never fired a coach in any sport and that Harp was not really fired ... it was just that his contract was not renewed!
Good point, Jim.
I don't mean to trash Harp, who was a pretty nice guy, and far from a terrible coach. I believe he's the father in law and something of a mentor to current Miami coach Cam Cameron.
I got the dates wrong for Harp -- he was at Duke from 1966 to 1970 (not 67 to 71). He did run a wide-open offense. His QB in 1966 and 1967 was Al Woodall, who later played for the Jets, and he had a first-team All-ACC wide receiver in Dave Dunaway.
He recruited well too -- in 1967 he signed North Carolina's all-state quarterback in 4-A (Brad Evans, the Ron Curry of his day), 3-A (Leo Hart) and 1-A (Wes Chesson). Incidentally, the 2-A all-stater he missed with future ACC commissioner John Swofford, who went to UNC.
Harp also beat out Joe Paterno for QB Rich Searl. He also recruited Ernie Jackson -- Duke's first great black athlete (I don't think he was Duke's first black football player, who I think got hurt and never played). Jackson and Searl became part of the best secondary in Duke history -- Searl was a three-time All-ACC pick, Jackson was a first-team All-American and in 1971, Searl, Jackson and junior Bill Hanenburg were first-team All-ACC picks. The fourth starter, Mike Davies, led the ACC in interceptions!
I guess the game I remember most from the Harp era was in 1970. Duke was 5-2 with a 2-point loss at Florida and a respectable 34-10 loss at No. 1 Ohio State (Duke should have led at the half), plus a win at No. 11 West Virginia (coached by Bobby Bowden). Duke was playing Georgia Tech in Durham and spent most of the fourth quarter trailing 17-16, but in Tech territory and threatening over and over. With about a minute left, Tech intercepted a pass and returned it for a touchdown.
A very deflated Duke team lost to Wake Forest the next week and Harp was lucky to finish 6-5. It was his only winning season.
That was it for Harp. At the time, Duke made a big to-do about how they had never fired a coach in any sport and that Harp was not really fired ... it was just that his contract was not renewed!
Must be a diffferent Tom Harp. Actually, the year before I got to Cornell, Harp coached a quarterback who was drafted by the pros, the Giants I believe; the guy must have used up Tom's allotment of allowable throws for after he left.
Hey Stray, I wouldn't try arguing with those Ivy League-degreed professors. They don't know from sportsmen; as to debaters, however, they are reputed to be masters! (Sorry, it's an old joke' but, hey, I'm an old guy).
Stray Gator
Moderator
*****************
Tom Harp was the football coach at Duke during my four undergrad years, beginning in the fall of '66. If I recall correctly, his most memorable claim to fame before coming to Duke occurred when he was coaching at Cornell and attempted to counter the then-recent arrival of soccer-style placekickers by having a player stand on the shoulders of a lineman in an effort to block field goals (a practice subsequently banned). I believe the photo made Sports Illustrated.
A Little Tidbit
the player he tried to block in that manner was Pete Gogalack, from Princeton. Pete's brother Charlie graduated Cornell, I think in 63, two years before I arrived. He was the first soccer-style kicker, and had a pro career, as did Pete, who I believe was drafted one/one. The quarterback I'm thinking of was 5'9", Gary Wood is his name; he played some for the Giants. He too graduated before I arrived. When I was at Cornell, Tom had a back, Pete Larson, who was all ivy and played a few years, mostly running back kicks, for the Redskins. He hung out with Sonny and Billy, and would not pass Highlander's righteous-living test, I can assure you. Tom recruited a big time thrower, but the kid never played for him.
BTW, in those years, Cornell did a terrific job recruiting basketball players from what we near the City called Upstate. Several All-Ivy ballplayers who could have played anywhere, including, I think he was from Upstate, David Bliss, who coached and then coached with, K. Bliss was the third best guard on the Cornell team when I arrived (they started three, all were All-Ivy selections, one, Bob Deluca, our version of Verga, 1st team twice). The other two guards were juniors when I arrived; both were from Upstate. They played with a two-time first team All-Ivy Center, Steve Cram. Bliss was a senior. My year, 64, there was a high school All-American guard who was the best leaper I've ever seen and could light it up from well beyond the current three point range (all-ivy three times, first team twice, Greg something). Cornell's recruiting class of '65 had two top 20 high school players, Hank South (Pittsburgh) and Walt Easdale (Hillhouse High in Conn), both of whom were All-Ivy players three years running (one was first team my senior year). South was a more muscled version of Barry Kramer, though at 6'4" a tad shorter, and Easdale was a behemoth (think a taller, 6'7", version of Wes Unseld), with incredible feet, balance, and hands, and the ability to break any press with the dribble, which is what he did. There were two brothers who also were high school All-Americans, last name was Reynolds (father, a Cornell professor); prize recruits in 64 and 65. Forward and guard; both went the way of drugs, or Cornell would have surpassed Princeton and Penn before I left, at least in my opinion. Actually, we almost did without them but Sam McNeil, the coach, would always get outcoached the second time through the schedule.
Then came the campus protests, and the bottom fell out. Good to know that they are back.
I just might try to get hooked up when we play you guys. I'll be the fat bald guy dressed in Cornell Red, with a tad of Duke blue. Later.
the player he tried to block in that manner was Pete Gogalack, from Princeton. Pete's brother Charlie graduated Cornell, I think in 63, two years before I arrived. He was the first soccer-style kicker, and had a pro career, as did Pete, who I believe was drafted one/one. The quarterback I'm thinking of was 5'9", Gary Wood is his name; he played some for the Giants. He too graduated before I arrived. When I was at Cornell, Tom had a back, Pete Larson, who was all ivy and played a few years, mostly running back kicks, for the Redskins. He hung out with Sonny and Billy, and would not pass Highlander's righteous-living test, I can assure you. Tom recruited a big time thrower, but the kid never played for him.
BTW, in those years, Cornell did a terrific job recruiting basketball players from what we near the City called Upstate. Several All-Ivy ballplayers who could have played anywhere, including, I think he was from Upstate, David Bliss, who coached and then coached with, K. Bliss was the third best guard on the Cornell team when I arrived (they started three, all were All-Ivy selections, one, Bob Deluca, our version of Verga, 1st team twice). The other two guards were juniors when I arrived; both were from Upstate. They played with a two-time first team All-Ivy Center, Steve Cram. Bliss was a senior. My year, 64, there was a high school All-American guard who was the best leaper I've ever seen and could light it up from well beyond the current three point range (all-ivy three times, first team twice, Greg something). Cornell's recruiting class of '65 had two top 20 high school players, Hank South (Pittsburgh) and Walt Easdale (Hillhouse High in Conn), both of whom were All-Ivy players three years running (one was first team my senior year). South was a more muscled version of Barry Kramer, though at 6'4" a tad shorter, and Easdale was a behemoth (think a taller, 6'7", version of Wes Unseld), with incredible feet, balance, and hands, and the ability to break any press with the dribble, which is what he did. There were two brothers who also were high school All-Americans, last name was Reynolds (father, a Cornell professor); prize recruits in 64 and 65. Forward and guard; both went the way of drugs, or Cornell would have surpassed Princeton and Penn before I left, at least in my opinion. Actually, we almost did without them but Sam McNeil, the coach, would always get outcoached the second time through the schedule.
Then came the campus protests, and the bottom fell out. Good to know that they are back.
I just might try to get hooked up when we play you guys. I'll be the fat bald guy dressed in Cornell Red, with a tad of Duke blue. Later.
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The Cornell QB drafted by the Giants was Gary Wood.
Harp deserves a warm spot in the hearts of Duke fans for being behind the single most creative, exciting play in the history of Duke football, the shoe-string play against UNC in 1969.
Why hire Harp when guys like Jerry Claiborne wanted the job? Duke was upgrading its faculty in the 1960s with lots of guys with Ivy League doctorates. Folks who weren't favorably inclined to big-time football and didn't mind saying so. My understanding is that the powers-that-be hoped that hiring an Ivy League coach would mollify the critics. An attempt to have your cake and eat it to.
Duke's football hires since Harp.
Mike McGee, who had a horrible record at ECU.
Red Wilson-small college coach
Steve Sloan-plenty of experience, career losing record, downward trend.
Steve Spurrier-no head coaching experience
Barry Wilson-no head coaching experience
Fred Goldsmith-mediocre record at Rice
Carl Franks-no head coaching experience
Ted Roof-interim head coach for half a season.
Seen in this context, hiring an Ivy League head coach seems like a step up!
Harp deserves a warm spot in the hearts of Duke fans for being behind the single most creative, exciting play in the history of Duke football, the shoe-string play against UNC in 1969.
Why hire Harp when guys like Jerry Claiborne wanted the job? Duke was upgrading its faculty in the 1960s with lots of guys with Ivy League doctorates. Folks who weren't favorably inclined to big-time football and didn't mind saying so. My understanding is that the powers-that-be hoped that hiring an Ivy League coach would mollify the critics. An attempt to have your cake and eat it to.
Duke's football hires since Harp.
Mike McGee, who had a horrible record at ECU.
Red Wilson-small college coach
Steve Sloan-plenty of experience, career losing record, downward trend.
Steve Spurrier-no head coaching experience
Barry Wilson-no head coaching experience
Fred Goldsmith-mediocre record at Rice
Carl Franks-no head coaching experience
Ted Roof-interim head coach for half a season.
Seen in this context, hiring an Ivy League head coach seems like a step up!
SmartDevil
Member
YmoBeThere
Member
I thought I was old for these boards...
recalling mid-80's and later. Glad to see I still have many seasons and memories to go if life treats me right.
recalling mid-80's and later. Glad to see I still have many seasons and memories to go if life treats me right.
Cornellian
New member
Tickets in January
As a first time visitor to Cameron Indoor-- what should we expect in terms of demand for tickets on a Sunday during winter break when Duke is playing a low-major?
Will the game sell out? I find it odd that Duke is playing a team like Cornell so late in the schedule.
As a first time visitor to Cameron Indoor-- what should we expect in terms of demand for tickets on a Sunday during winter break when Duke is playing a low-major?
Will the game sell out? I find it odd that Duke is playing a team like Cornell so late in the schedule.
-jk
Well-known Moderator
Tickets usually sell out to Iron Dukes, even for the winter break games. (Of course, scalpers will have a few, but they're required to charge visiting fans extra.)
There is a Ticket Exchange forum on this BBS.
-jk
Olympic Fan
Member
Not to hikack this thread, but I think this list is a bit misleading and unfair:
McGee was a very well-respected assistant coach who was at East Carolina for one year. He actually laid the groundwork there for the success that Sonny Randle had. True -- he had just one year of experience as a head coach (and it was a lousy year).
Red Wilson won a national championship at Elon and was a big winner there. He was a former North Carolina high school coach where he established contacts that Tom Butters hoped would help in-state recruiting. Indeed, in his one year as McGee's recruiting coordinator, Wilson landed the best Duke recruiting class in modern history (Charles Bowser, Cedric Jones, Dennis Tabron and company). He did have success -- back-to-back 6-5 seasons in the early 1980s.
Steve Sloan -- long predicted to be Bear Bryant's successor at Alabama, Sloan had great success at Vanderbilt, then went to Ole Miss and flopped big time. He did do a good job of improving the infrastructure at Duke.
Steve Spurrier -- no COLLEGE head coaching experience. He was a successful head coach in the USFL before the league folded beneath him. Plus, he had a brilliant track record at Duke when he was Red Wilson's offensive coordinator.
Barry Wilson -- the less said the better. Nice man ... terrible hire.
Fred Goldsmith -- saying Fred had a mediocre record at Rice is like saying Mike Krzyzewski had a mediocre record at Army when he was hired. He took a program that was as far down as Duke is today and within two years posted back to back 6-5 seasons -- in the old Southwest Conference (which still had Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech). He was the NATIONAL COACH OF THE YEAR in his final season at Rice.
Carl Franks -- absolutely terrible hire.
Ted Roof -- not a great hire, but given the options at the time -- an aging Bobby Ross, Dick Biddle and a guy who turned the season around after his interim hire, probably the best that could do.
In hindsight, I'd say only Barry Wilson and Carl Franks were indefensible hires, although I agree that Sloan was hard to get excited about at the time. And firing Red Wilson after two 6-5 seasons looks pretty stupid now. But I think to be fair, given the information available at the time, both Spurrier and Goldsmith were great hires (in hindsight, Goldsmith didn't work out, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a very respectable hire).
The decision to hire Harp was a bad one because at that time, Duke football was extremely well respected and AD Eddie Cameron could have hired a number of superb coaches. But the choice of Butters was forced on him by president Douglas Knight, who was trying to re-make Duke as an Ivy League school.
As I said, Harp wasn't a terrible coach, but the Duke program was far worse off in 1970 when he left than in 1966 when he was hired.
watzone
On Holiday
Well, it is an entertaining hijack. Of the eight coaches listed, six have been fired. That's a bit glaring! Of course, one is still here. Whether they were respectable hires or not, the success rate is alarmingly bad. Something is indeed wrong if every coach since Murry was fired, save Spurrier. The late sixties mistake (Harp) haunts Duke to this day.
Hijacking Is Good
So let me get down to it. Football should be banned. Thank your lucky stars that your school isn't associated with promoting it. The mayheem committed in the name of "sport" is a scandal. We are finally seeing the press (media) begin to address it. The retired pros are coming out of the closet and talking about how crippling the sport is, even to those who leave it seemingly whole. Gumble just did a harrowing piece on the price of concussions. Hello, is anybody listening?
All sports have the prospect of injury, but in football that prospect is of ridiculous proportion. Sports medicine is an oxymoran, and people end up broken in body and many, many in mind. For what? You can't even drink legally before, during, and after games anymore on campus right? What's the point of it. Harp should get a statute, if you ask me. Only leave it in Durham, not Ithaca.
So let me get down to it. Football should be banned. Thank your lucky stars that your school isn't associated with promoting it. The mayheem committed in the name of "sport" is a scandal. We are finally seeing the press (media) begin to address it. The retired pros are coming out of the closet and talking about how crippling the sport is, even to those who leave it seemingly whole. Gumble just did a harrowing piece on the price of concussions. Hello, is anybody listening?
All sports have the prospect of injury, but in football that prospect is of ridiculous proportion. Sports medicine is an oxymoran, and people end up broken in body and many, many in mind. For what? You can't even drink legally before, during, and after games anymore on campus right? What's the point of it. Harp should get a statute, if you ask me. Only leave it in Durham, not Ithaca.