Duke 72, Kentucky 77 Post Game Thread

mph said:
You can find DBR posters on every side of every argument so I’m sure there were also folks who were happy with both K and Scheyer’s end-game strategy and others who were split.

Either way, it seems to gloss over the distinction some are making that a) you can set up Flagg to take the final shot without having him initiate the set in isolation. Maybe run an action that produces a more favorable switch or that gets him the ball in an attacking position so he doesn’t have to create everything off the dribble. And b) putting him in isolation for 4 of the last 5 plays might not be the best way to generate quality looks or to maintain any sense of offensive flow.

I’m firmly in the camp that Jon is a very good coach and will continue to get better. I’m also encouraged by last nights game. I’m more convinced than ever this team has championship potential. But the lesson I took from last night isn’t that we just had a poor shooting game or Cooper made freshman mistakes but that Jon could have done better at putting our guys in a position to succeed. But, hey, I was the 10th man on my high school basketball team so what the heck do I know.
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That misses half my point. If we hadn't lost those games, there would be no second guessing. If Cooper had made a couple of plays at the end last night - which he was very capable of doing - then the narrative on this thread today would be what a brilliant coach Jon is for trusting his superstar to win the game.

Sometimes teams don't make plays, or don't make shots, and lose games. And I don't say that meaning there aren't things that the team and coaching staff need to improve upon - there always are.
 
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mkirsh said:
I agree with this. Some of the challenges of the Flagg late game ISO might have been execution as much as strategy. On two plays Flagg was doubled and Kon was wide open on the right wing. One of those plays ended up in a Flagg 3 point play as he made the elbow jumper over 2 defenders, and the other was the penultimate play where he spun into the turnover. But on each he could have kicked to Kon for the 3. And on the final possession Maluach set a screen that forced UKs big to switch onto Flagg on the wing which is probably a match up Duke wants, but Flagg carried the ball too far into the corner and lost his handle. If Flagg kicks to Kon who buries a three, or beats the big baseline for a layup we are not killing Scheyer for playing through him but praising Flagg for making winning plays.
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Thanks for this. I didn't feel like suffering through those last couple of minutes to break down the plays but I think you nailed it. Cooper's job was not to score but to make the right plays. I'm sure the staff will watch the film with him and help him see that he had passes for open looks that he missed.
 
CDu said:
Honestly, I don't even think the second half was overly physical. There were the two plays of note, but I don't think either was overly physical. One was a fluke where the defender fell down and into Maluach's leg, and then there was the screen that caught James' shoulder bent at an odd angle. I don't think either play was overly physical, just bad luck with normal contact just catching our guy on a joint.

Both teams were playing hard, but not overly physically. It wasn't a finesse game or anything, but it was nothing like the slugfests against Tennessee or Houston of recent past.

I thought the overall level of aggression was pretty similar between both teams. We just couldn't make shots, and may have suffered from tired legs down the stretch (with 3 of our guys playing all 20 minutes of the second half).
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It’s really more about how (a) the push in the back of a defenseless Maluach going to the hoop should have been called and (b) moving screen injured player and should have been called and a few more points would have made a difference. Both instances led to our best defenders being out and no points. It’s also the bs Kentucky narrative of victimization from the Laettner “stomp” which pervades to this day and will forever compel Kentucky fans to complain Duke gets all the calls. Which started in the ‘92 regional. Which before his retaliation step — then would and could only be a tech — Kentucky was shoving holding fouling and getting away with everything they could to try and stop the reigning champions. But CT went 10 for 10 for 10 against a barrage of hacking. Am I triggered by Farmer-esque goofy stashes on Kerr and friends from last night, possibly. It’s like they stepped out of a time warp or they dyed their facial peach fuzz as an homage/throwback to that team. Which if they did — that’s pretty cool. Good on Kentucky. Hope Duke gets to play them again in the NCAAs to restore order. But you’re right this wasn’t like Tennessee, Houston, or South Carolina.
 
Any nonexistent injury reports on Sion James
Nothing has been confirmed how severe it is. Heard the Blue Devil roundup
Foster scored a 57 on a 100 scale. We need better guard play. Hope last night was a complete aberration in all facets of the game.
 
bluedevilwildcats said:
I'm getting tired of all the lessons our players and coaches need to learn...the past 3 years. Like, are we actually learning or just doing the same thing and hoping for a better result? A good offensive scheme is going to prioritize open looks for the other players over the star trying to do it himself. Every time. Why Jon hasn't figured this out and adapted is frustrating and concerning. Maybe it's because the coach he learned from never figured it out.
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So, K’s 5 NCAA championships were an ignorant guy’s luck?
 
SkyBrickey said:
He shot 40% from 3 last year. Who "reworks their shot" after shooting 40% from 3?
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It was on 2 attempts a game. He also is a poor free throw shooter which can be used as an indicator. I get Justise Winslow vibes where I am not buying the shot. I am concerned.
 
DBKilby said:
It was on 2 attempts a game. He also is a poor free throw shooter which can be used as an indicator. I get Justise Winslow vibes where I am not buying the shot. I am concerned.
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I don't love Caleb or Sion's low release points because it makes it tough for them to get off shots. But after shooting 40% last season, I think it's very unlikely anyone would tell Caleb to make any major adjustments to his shot.
 
SkyBrickey said:
That misses half my point. If we hadn't lost those games, there would be no second guessing. If Cooper had made a couple of plays at the end last night - which he was very capable of doing - then the narrative on this thread today would be what a brilliant coach Jon is for trusting his superstar to win the game.

Sometimes teams don't make plays, or don't make shots, and lose games. And I don't say that meaning there aren't things that the team and coaching staff need to improve upon - there always are.
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Well, sure. fans on internet fan boards complain more about coaching after losses than wins and some focus on isolated outcomes rather than process.

I didn’t miss that part of your point. I wasn’t attempting to respond to it because I’m more interested in whether they are making a valid point than in attempting to diagnose their motive. I agree with posters (like Chicago 1995, I think) who are talking about process rather than a single shot. For example, the and-1 Cooper made a few possessions before his final turnover was still a bad possession, IMO.

I also think Jon could have done more in the last 10 minutes, especially after timeouts, to break us out of our offensive funk by calling sets that created more off-the-ball movement and screens so Cooper could get easier looks or better passing options to cutters and open shooters.

Again, maybe we win if Sion and ManMan are healthy or if we hit a few more 3’s. But we still had enough talent on the floor to win and I believe Jon could have done a more to put them in a position to succeed.
 
mph said:
Well, sure. fans on internet fan boards complain more about coaching after losses than wins and some focus on isolated outcomes rather than process.

I didn’t miss that part of your point. I wasn’t attempting to respond to it because I’m more interested in whether they are making a valid point than in attempting to diagnose their motive. I agree with posters (like Chicago 1995, I think) who are talking about process rather than a single shot. For example, the and-1 Cooper made a few possessions before his final turnover was still a bad possession, IMO.

I also think Jon could have done more in the last 10 minutes, especially after timeouts, to break us out of our offensive funk by calling sets that created more off-the-ball movement and screens so Cooper could get easier looks or better passing options to cutters and open shooters.

Again, maybe we win if Sion and ManMan are healthy or if we hit a few more 3’s. But we still had enough talent on the floor to win and I believe Jon could have done a more to put them in a position to succeed.
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I think the team really showed their youth on offense in the last 10 min of the game. I can understand some people blaming Jon for that, but I see it more as a learning and growing process for a very young team that's never played together before.

I would prefer us to learn those lessons and still get W's, but that didn't happen last night. The fact that we shot 18% from 3 against a top20 team and were still right there to win it at the end could be viewed as a really positive sign.
 
Chicago 1995 said:
It's not going to our best player -- it's how we went to our best player.

Watching the offense get so much slower and the motion go out of it during the second half was disappointing, given that we've seen it before. That's the frustration I think a lot of us feel. We've seen that before and whether unwilling or unable to recognize it's making us easier to beat, Jon keeps doing the same thing.
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Kfanarmy said:
Second half was just excruciating to watch. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the 1st half, so I happily joined in with Duke up by 9.

The half I did see was not good. Thoughts:

- UK played much more team ball than Duke did from start to finish of the half. It never felt like UK wasn't going to complete the comeback.

- Offense was abysmal. There appeared to be no offensive adjustments to UK overplaying the passing lanes, and no one on the team seemed confident, or quick. enough to drive into the lane and get a good shot, except for Flagg, whose ball handling deteriorated a bit as he tired. In any case, having a guy his height dribbling more than twice in the paint, is generally not a good idea in college ball. Duke is going to have to figure out how to move the ball. Offense broke down eerily as it did last year at times when the weave at the three-point line gets disrupted. I was a bit frustrated that Filipowski was turning the ball over inside last year rather than a guard taking it. Repeat last night. Appears that might be a strategy problem rather than a player problem. Need some quicks and some precise passing to break down that kind of D. It generally isn't done by having a PF dribble into the lane.
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Maged said:
Yes that's the way I saw it. Get the ball into the hands of your best playmaker. I'm not sure the rest of the team helped him much on some possessions but Cooper was going to win or lose it on his own. That's how he is and I love it.

He does have Flip Disease however, in that he turns his back to the basket and tries to spin in the lane and you can't do that at this level.
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tommy said:
Problem is the Proctor is not only better than Foster running the screen/roll, but he's also a better catch and shoot guy. I know Caleb's 3 point shooting was better than Tyrese's last year (although on significantly lower volume) but it seems to me that Tyrese has really improved his shooting, and his numbers early far outpace Caleb's. Tyrese is simply the better offensive player than Caleb is right now, and he can't be both the guy running the screen/roll and also spotting up on the wing or in the corner.
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So as I read through this thread, I’m quoting those comments that support a theme that emerged for me as I watched the game. In the first half, we moved the ball well and we barely turned the ball over.

As the game progressed, we stopped moving the ball. We played iso. We dribbled a lot, and the ball handler at any given time didn’t seem to be moving with purpose or with a plan, while most of our other players barely moved without the ball.

I think we’re at our best when we’re moving the ball a lot, dribbling less, and running offense. That approach also tends to wear down an opponent trying to defend against that passing and ball movement while actually preserving our energy.

Relatedly, I still have PTSD from all of Filipowski’s spin moves into the lane, especially as a PF. When Cooper did that near the end of the game, that PTSD was triggered.

Would love to see us move the ball more and dribble less. Not saying we need to go Bellarmine-level no dribble, but would love to dribble way less. I think having Procter run point could potentially improve this. I’m not convinced that Foster is ready for PG.

Apologies for the meandering post. Hope it makes at least some sense. Long day.
 
SkyBrickey said:
I don't love Caleb or Sion's low release points because it makes it tough for them to get off shots. But after shooting 40% last season, I think it's very unlikely anyone would tell Caleb to make any major adjustments to his shot.
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Caleb missed several open threes which really turned the tide (in my humble opinion). Especially the back to back ones off an offensive rebound.

Still early days though and I'm sure the next time around he knocks them down. They were wide open. We couldn't get a better shot. Just didn't fall for him and you could see his confidence fade.
 
bluedevilwildcats said:
Possible but extremely unlikely. But K was hardly infallible and I think he had some blind spots that Jon has inherited.
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I’m sure you’re right, nobody is perfect! But, how much better can you do than learn from the GOAT?

I’m an investor and wish I had spent my early years learning from Warren. Unfortunately, it costs seven figures just to eat lunch with the man.
 
Jeffrey said:
I’m sure you’re right, nobody is perfect! But, how much better can you do than learn from the GOAT?

I’m an investor and wish I had spent my early years learning from Warren. Unfortunately, it costs seven figures just to eat lunch with the man.
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Warren is a good example of GOATs with blind spots - he refused to invest in technology stocks for the longest time, said he didn't understand them. I'm guessing that failure to learn and stretch outside his comfort zone cost him tens of billions.

You've undoubtedly heard of Clayton Christensen. He was on a Podcast years ago and described Coach K's short bench as an organizational failure, for the same reasons that have been mentioned by smart folks on this site over the years: fails to develop new talent, creates an over-reliance on starters, doesn't build a flexible and innovative team culture, etc.

I think my disappointment with Jon is that he doesn't seem to be learning and fixing his own blind spots fast enough given expectations at Duke.
 
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