Constant roster turnover - is this still fun?

Among the bigger hurdles for me is still thinking of this as COLLEGE basketball. These guys (coaches and players) are largely mercenaries. There really is little to no true ACADEMIC connection to the institution that they purport to represent; it’s more analogous to a semi-pro club team, and yes, that includes Duke.

Before people get on me, yes, across the entire college basketball landscape there are clearly plenty of examples of quality players that are taking legitimate coursework that actually do value the education and tend to stay put at one institution, but I strongly suspect that is a rarity for the main rotation players at the elite programs where this is very big business.
 
I really enjoy it and actually think college basketball as a whole is better in the NIL/portal era than in the early-entry/OAD era from about the mid-2000's through 2020. The NCAA Tournament ratings are up big and our Elite 8 game was a ratings monster. People may complain about the lack of upsets but the reality is that people actually want to watch the big-time programs go head-to-head. The teams at the top of college ball are more talented since there is more freedom and options in roster construction. Used to be the only ways to improve year to year was current players developing and the incoming high school recruits. We still get player development, I've really enjoyed watching the rise of guys like Foster, Proctor, and Roach and I view them as classic long-term Duke guys. The portal can be heartbreaking when it's our guys leaving but there's no question it adds more excitement and intrigue to college basketball. College sports has always been a much quicker burn than pro sports. Even when all the players would stay for 4 years it still pales in comparison to a legend playing for one team for 15+ years. But that to me is a big reason college sports is more interesting than pro sports.
 
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Fun in different ways. Less fun in that we don’t get 3-4 years with players. More fun in that we aren’t dragged down for 2-3 years by a rough recruiting year or surprise departures. So long as Duke can remain a powerhouse with NIL and recruiting, I think it leads to better program success, which is what is the most fun to me. If we fade into an “also ran” category, then it will be less fun.

Obviously nothing beats the 1986-1994 run where we had great talent AND they all stayed 4 years. But it has been more fun than 1995-1997, 2007-2009, and 2012-2014 when (for various reasons) our roster wasn’t so robust.
 
CDu said:
Fun in different ways. Less fun in that we don’t get 3-4 years with players. More fun in that we aren’t dragged down for 2-3 years by a rough recruiting year or surprise departures. So long as Duke can remain a powerhouse with NIL and recruiting, I think it leads to better program success, which is what is the most fun to me. If we fade into an “also ran” category, then it will be less fun.

Obviously nothing beats the 1986-1994 run where we had great talent AND they all stayed 4 years. But it has been more fun than 1995-1997, 2007-2009, and 2012-2014 when (for various reasons) our roster wasn’t so robust.
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I was already going to respond with what follows even before I saw that you mentioned both 2007-2009 and 2012-14, but I think they're perfect examples of we're missing now, or the upside of having 4-year guys.

Those are the worst three-tournament stretches Duke has had in the NCAA Tournament dating back to the handful of tourneys that ended the Foster era and began Coach K's. However, after winning just three games over three NCAA Tourneys, Duke was then led to a national title by a senior (or seniors) in year four (2010 & 2015).

We're getting excellent, star-led teams from season to season that have Duke among an elite group of teams in the titles discussion ..... but we're not actually getting the titles. And when we don't get a title with Cooper/Kon or Cam, especially when the season ends in such unbelievable fashion, it is absolutely gutting to know what an incredible opportunity was missed and that our brief time watching those guys in a Duke uni is suddenly forever over. And then we get to wonder who, if anyone, from the rotation will return.

Also, it's not like the '08 or '09 teams were lost causes and the season was a slog knowing they couldn't win it all. '08 entered the top 10 in November and never left, finishing the regular season 26-4 after a 22-1 start that truly should've been 23-0 (see: Pitt at MSG); '09 was top 10 all season and #1 entering February. Those were very good teams, they just ran out of gas at the end of the season after peaking too soon. It's not like I was sitting there in the middle of ACC play moping around as if they couldn't possibly go deep in March.

Anyway, good and bad about the old ways and the new, but I hate this part of the year now as we await announcements from literally everyone because everyone's a free agent to some degree until they say they're sticking around.
 
mo.st.dukie said:
I really enjoy it and actually think college basketball as a whole is better in the NIL/portal era than in the early-entry/OAD era from about the mid-2000's through 2020. The NCAA Tournament ratings are up big and our Elite 8 game was a ratings monster. People may complain about the lack of upsets but the reality is that people actually want to watch the big-time programs go head-to-head. The teams at the top of college ball are more talented since there is more freedom and options in roster construction. Used to be the only ways to improve year to year was current players developing and the incoming high school recruits. We still get player development, I've really enjoyed watching the rise of guys like Foster, Proctor, and Roach and I view them as classic long-term Duke guys. The portal can be heartbreaking when it's our guys leaving but there's no question it adds more excitement and intrigue to college basketball. College sports has always been a much quicker burn than pro sports. Even when all the players would stay for 4 years it still pales in comparison to a legend playing for one team for 15+ years. But that to me is a big reason college sports is more interesting than pro sports.
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So many good points here! I will say that one of the benefits to NIL is that we are able to retain more of those players who normally would have jumped to the draft and either ended up going in the second round or not at all.

I agree about your comment about the Cinderellas of the tournament. I would say the far majority of people enjoyed the upsets for the first two rounds, maybe a Sweet 16, but by the tournament, they probably really just wanted to see which big dog beat the other one.

I really don't watch the NBA but I do love the loyalty of the legend who stays with a team for 15+ years so I can't say I think college is more interesting. What I will say, though, is that you knew you only had the college players for four years at the most so when they leave early it's not quite as earth-shattering as, say, a LeBron taking his talents elsewhere (or your GM trading a Luka) when you didn't necessarily expect it.
 
BrummieDevil said:
I was already going to respond with what follows even before I saw that you mentioned both 2007-2009 and 2012-14, but I think they're perfect examples of we're missing now, or the upside of having 4-year guys.

Those are the worst three-tournament stretches Duke has had in the NCAA Tournament dating back to the handful of tourneys that ended the Foster era and began Coach K's. However, after winning just three games over three NCAA Tourneys, Duke was then led to a national title by a senior (or seniors) in year four (2010 & 2015).

We're getting excellent, star-led teams from season to season that have Duke among an elite group of teams in the titles discussion ..... but we're not actually getting the titles. And when we don't get a title with Cooper/Kon or Cam, especially when the season ends in such unbelievable fashion, it is absolutely gutting to know what an incredible opportunity was missed and that our brief time watching those guys in a Duke uni is suddenly forever over. And then we get to wonder who, if anyone, from the rotation will return.

Also, it's not like the '08 or '09 teams were lost causes and the season was a slog knowing they couldn't win it all. '08 entered the top 10 in November and never left, finishing the regular season 26-4 after a 22-1 start that truly should've been 23-0 (see: Pitt at MSG); '09 was top 10 all season and #1 entering February. Those were very good teams, they just ran out of gas at the end of the season after peaking too soon. It's not like I was sitting there in the middle of ACC play moping around as if they couldn't possibly go deep in March.

Anyway, good and bad about the old ways and the new, but I hate this part of the year now as we await announcements from literally everyone because everyone's a free agent to some degree until they say they're sticking around.
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I couldn't have said it any better! I agree with all of this! Even the 91 and 92 teams had Grant Hill as the freshman/sophomore phenom but we still never won one of our five titles without seniors pulling a big portion of the weight. We're never going back to those days where you have multiple four-year guys who aren't just practice players sitting on the bench but I still will always feel like you need a proper mix of the freshman 5 star talent with the veteran presence and experience.
 
Coop123 said:
I have friends who are Gonzaga fans and they got that tall white guy Timme for what felt like 10 years. I couldn’t stand the guy, but I was super jealous of Gonzaga fans who got to see him play for so many years.
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Interesting that you say this, because Drew's brother Walker Timme entered the portal yesterday.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2039899374520545502

Now, please realize that it won't be exactly the same. According to his Northern Arizona bio, he's two inches shorter, and he has a thin goatee rather than a handlebar mustache.
 
It's less fun for me, but it is what it is. For me, the only thing getting worked up about it would accomplish is to decrease the joy Duke Basketball brings me. Not really a trade-off I care to make.

One of the plusses, it makes appreciate a player like Caleb even more.
 
mo.st.dukie said:
I really enjoy it and actually think college basketball as a whole is better in the NIL/portal era than in the early-entry/OAD era from about the mid-2000's through 2020. The NCAA Tournament ratings are up big and our Elite 8 game was a ratings monster. People may complain about the lack of upsets but the reality is that people actually want to watch the big-time programs go head-to-head. The teams at the top of college ball are more talented since there is more freedom and options in roster construction. Used to be the only ways to improve year to year was current players developing and the incoming high school recruits. We still get player development, I've really enjoyed watching the rise of guys like Foster, Proctor, and Roach and I view them as classic long-term Duke guys. The portal can be heartbreaking when it's our guys leaving but there's no question it adds more excitement and intrigue to college basketball. College sports has always been a much quicker burn than pro sports. Even when all the players would stay for 4 years it still pales in comparison to a legend playing for one team for 15+ years. But that to me is a big reason college sports is more interesting than pro sports.
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Roach is a tough one because he finished in a different uniform.

Yeah, it's really about how you look at it and contextualize it. We as fans have to adapt as well. I will never find the slog of the NBA regular season more interesting. The quality of basketball is as good as ever.

The issue we may have and it won't effect Duke, is we may see a very small upper class in college hoops composed of the top 15 or so NIL heavy programs with top coaches. It may be the same teams year after year with little diversity. I'm going to be curious as to how a program like Purdue bounces back chasing 3 star kids and low end portalers. Painter can only be so good a coach.

For instance, mid majors are dead, including Gonzaga. I don't expect them to show up at all anymore. The euro pipeline is now being tapped by many of the majors.
 
I enjoy watching and rooting for Duke, but I have lost interest in college sports overall. I barely ever watch college football or basketball in the regular season if Duke isn't playing. For me, it's become a very mediocre product, and they joy I used to get from continuity, knowing players, watching them grow, following rivalries, etc. is somehow far more possible through watching professional sports (if college sports is not considered professional at this point). I vastly prefer watching and following the NBA now, which is something I never would have believed 10 years ago. The NBA has its own flaws of course, but my Pacers are a blast (you know...not this year, but in general) and the level of play is so much higher. Plus I actually know who is on which team!
 
No but it's the world now. I'm not going to pine for old times nor am I going to be a prisoner of the past. Times that locked players AND schools together and not always for the benefit of either. I support Duke. Always will. I'm happy to see Cooper and Kon and Cam for their brief time. I'm happy to see Proctor and Roach and Brown and Foster for extended years. They are my people....OUR people. I'm at a point in my life were I ask the universe to grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Change is the only only constant in life.
 
kmmk said:
So many good points here! I will say that one of the benefits to NIL is that we are able to retain more of those players who normally would have jumped to the draft and either ended up going in the second round or not at all.

I agree about your comment about the Cinderellas of the tournament. I would say the far majority of people enjoyed the upsets for the first two rounds, maybe a Sweet 16, but by the tournament, they probably really just wanted to see which big dog beat the other one.

I really don't watch the NBA but I do love the loyalty of the legend who stays with a team for 15+ years so I can't say I think college is more interesting. What I will say, though, is that you knew you only had the college players for four years at the most so when they leave early it's not quite as earth-shattering as, say, a LeBron taking his talents elsewhere (or your GM trading a Luka) when you didn't necessarily expect it.
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We are not winning any NCAA titles YET. But the last two years we have certainly been knocking on the door. Either of the last two years’ teams were fluke losses from a real shot at the title. And this is at the beginning of Scheyer’s career, while he is learning on the job and learning how to manage the new NIL landscape as well.
 
CDu said:
We are not winning any NCAA titles YET. But the last two years we have certainly been knocking on the door. Either of the last two years’ teams were fluke losses from a real shot at the title. And this is at the beginning of Scheyer’s career, while he is learning on the job and learning how to manage the new NIL landscape as well.
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Two years running he built rosters that were NC caliber, and close to favorite for both years. It's all you can ask for. Now he has to make some tweaks in his strategy to be more bullet proof. He has as good a chance to win NC's going forward as just about any other coach out there, I'd say right there with May & Hurley. Moving away from the true PG has hurt him a bit, lacking seniority perhaps.
 
BlueDevilDog said:
Two years running he built rosters that were NC caliber, and close to favorite for both years. It's all you can ask for. Now he has to make some tweaks in his strategy to be more bullet proof. He has as good a chance to win NC's going forward as just about any other coach out there, I'd say right there with May & Hurley. Moving away from the true PG has hurt him a bit, lacking seniority perhaps.
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Cayden Boozer isn’t a true PG?
 
CDu said:
We are not winning any NCAA titles YET. But the last two years we have certainly been knocking on the door. Either of the last two years’ teams were fluke losses from a real shot at the title. And this is at the beginning of Scheyer’s career, while he is learning on the job and learning how to manage the new NIL landscape as well.
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Oh I agree completely! I think Jon has done an incredible job these past four seasons! And they were definitely fluke losses and I guaranteed he learned from them. I have complete faith his first title is coming soon.
 
BlueDevilDog said:
No - not in the traditional, speed and explosion with the ball/dribble sense. He doesn't strike me as a shifty ball handler at all. He's big and strong, feels like more of a combo.
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Point guards come with a variety of skillsets. Jon Scheyer won his NCAA championship playing PG, but was not particularly speedy or explosive or shifty with ball. Some even considered him alarmingly unathletic.

-jk
 
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