2024 U.S. Presidential election

[crote]

Because politics stops at the oceans or whatever the old saying is. The admin is doing a dangerous dance right now herding cats and whatnot. Having the sitting vice President come out and criticize what is going on (especially when most of it is not public) would be disastrous. Bibi would have free rein and the only narrative between now and the election is “Dems in disarray” and “should Kamala invoke the 25th”, etc.

Again, there is openly criticizing and then there is leaving a little daylight. Harris, for example, has been mum about whether she'd keep Lina Khan at the FTC, even after her surrogate Mark Cuban recently came out and said she's got to go. She could have come out and given a full throated endorsement of Biden's FTC commissioner (as she's done with foreign policy), but has evidently decided it's more strategic to stay silent.

I realize foreign and domestic policy are different beasts, but seems like Harris could add some nuance to her foreign policy messaging meant to appeal to, say, several hundred thousand voters in Michigan looking for any excuse to vote for her.

Crote - I understand you are passionate about this issue. Please be mindful that this issue has nearly derailed the thread multiple times. Many of us also feel passionate about it but have learned to drop it for this thread as debating the nuances of Middle East policy doesn’t fall under the instruction of “only discuss issues as they affect the horse race”.

My personal feelings on this issue should be clear to anyone, but I do feel like I've tried to keep this tied to the horse race. Substance and procedure are necessarily tied up here, so it's hard to talk about one without the other, but my point is that Biden's approach is dangerous and unpopular, and Harris's refusal to even hint that she would support a different course seems like an electoral loser to me.

 

[SkyBrickey]

Really? Where? That's just awful. I would love to know where conflict has caused tens of thousands of children to be killed. How tragic!

Wait, I just figured it out. You are unquestionably expressing your outrage over the US response to 9-11. I mean, the US killed 200,000 civilians in the invasion of Iraq which almost had to include tens of thousands of children.

My memory is fuzzy... I'm trying to recall, did the UN pass resolutions condemning the US for that outrage? And remind me, was Iraq holding American citizens hostage?

Gosh, I keep on getting my conflicts confused. Some seem justified and others not so much. I really is tough to know what the right thing to do is.

I would be willing to bet that almost all Americans who believe it is wrong that the Israelis have killed and starved and wounded tens of thousands of children also believe it is wrong that the US did the same in Iraq. I would find a better argument.

 

[JasonEvans]

I would be willing to bet that almost all Americans who believe it is wrong that the Israelis have killed and starved and wounded tens of thousands of three thousand children also believe it is wrong that the US did the same in Iraq. I would find a better argument.

FIFY... don't let the hyperbole suck you into making blatantly false statements (though I would agree that any needless death is a tragedy and I dearly lament what has happened on both sides).

But you are right and I agree with folks above who say this is an issue that badly derails this thread. Each side has gotten in some points, let's leave it for now.

 

[PackMan97]

While that is probably true, the useful idiot role allowed his GOP puppeteers to win the long game with the judiciary. That's generational change. That's the biggest and lasting political legacy that people overlook and will make it easier to dismantle the federal system. And I mean that literally, figuratively, politically and philosophically.

And about the only good thing he did.

 

[SkyBrickey]

FIFY... don't let the hyperbole suck you into making blatantly false statements (though I would agree that any needless death is a tragedy and I dearly lament what has happened on both sides).

But you are right and I agree with folks above who say this is an issue that badly derails this thread. Each side has gotten in some points, let's leave it for now.

If you're going to "correct" me, please post a source. I go off the United Nations. And I said tens of thousands dead, wounded, starving.

"Nearly 15,000 other children in Gaza have been killed since the war began on Oct. 7, 2023, according to the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights."

Number of children missing, separated from families in Gaza may be as high as 21,000: Report

Up to 21,000 children in Gaza are estimated to be missing in the Israel-Hamas war, according to humanitarian aid group Save The Children.

abcnews.go.com

Please don't justify dead children by citing the slaughter of other children.

 

[crote]

Really? Where? That's just awful. I would love to know where conflict has caused tens of thousands of children to be killed. How tragic!

My heart is moved most prominently by this recent letter from doctors who have been in Gaza over the last year:

Children are universally considered innocents in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities

Then there is this Oxfam report that notes more than 11,000 children and 6,000 women confirmed as directly killed by the IDF over the last year. That is more deaths of children than occurred during the first two and a half years of the Syrian Civil War (Syria of course having a much larger population than Gaza). Oxfam also notes that this number does not account for the 20,000 or more people that are known to be missing and likely buried under the rubble.

Then there is this study from the Lancet which uses data from comparable conflicts to estimate that there are probably 4 indirect deaths (disease, starvation, lack of medical care, etc) attributable to the conflict for every direct death, leading to an estimate of 186,000 total deaths in Gaza at that time (a number that is doubtlessly higher now after additional months of bombing).

Wait, I just figured it out. You are unquestionably expressing your outrage over the US response to 9-11. I mean, the US killed 200,000 civilians in the invasion of Iraq which almost had to include tens of thousands of children.

My memory is fuzzy... I'm trying to recall, did the UN pass resolutions condemning the US for that outrage? And remind me, was Iraq holding American citizens hostage?

Gosh, I keep on getting my conflicts confused. Some seem justified and others not so much. I really is tough to know what the right thing to do is.

You got me, the guy who is upset about Gaza but who thinks the Iraq War was justified and awesome. Amazing.

Happy to play by the rules of the thread and focus on how this all relates to the horse race, but Packman saying supporting Israel's war is "the right thing to do" or whatever point Jason was trying to make here deserve a response.

 

[wiscodevil]

Really? Where? That's just awful. I would love to know where conflict has caused tens of thousands of children to be killed. How tragic!

Wait, I just figured it out. You are unquestionably expressing your outrage over the US response to 9-11. I mean, the US killed 200,000 civilians in the invasion of Iraq which almost had to include tens of thousands of children.

My memory is fuzzy... I'm trying to recall, did the UN pass resolutions condemning the US for that outrage? And remind

My heart is moved most prominently by this recent letter from doctors who have been in Gaza over the last year:



Then there is this Oxfam report that notes more than 11,000 children and 6,000 women confirmed as directly killed by the IDF over the last year. That is more deaths of children than occurred during the first two and a half years of the Syrian Civil War (Syria of course having a much larger population than Gaza). Oxfam also notes that this number does not account for the 20,000 or more people that are known to be missing and likely buried under the rubble.

Then there is this study from the Lancet which uses data from comparable conflicts to estimate that there are probably 4 indirect deaths (disease, starvation, lack of medical care, etc) attributable to the conflict for every direct death, leading to an estimate of 186,000 total deaths in Gaza at that time (a number that is doubtlessly higher now after additional months of bombing).



You got me, the guy who is upset about Gaza but who thinks the Iraq War was justified and awesome. Amazing.

Happy to play by the rules of the thread and focus on how this all relates to the horse race, but Packman saying supporting Israel's war is "the right thing to do" or whatever point Jason was trying to make here deserve a response.

Here’s a gift article from the NYT expanding on the quote above. Israel is committing war crimes routinely.

Opinion | 65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza

“Nearly every day I was there, I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or the chest, virtually all of whom went on to die.”

www.nytimes.com

 

[dudog84]

And about the only good thing he did.

Yeah, judges like Aileen Cannon and Matthew Kacsmaryk. Not to mention 3 SC "justices" who blatantly lied at their confirmation hearings. SMDH.

 

[CrazyNotCrazie]

And about the only good thing he did.

Appointing those three was a good thing? Really? Do you have respect for the rule of law? Precedent? So much more I want to say but I don't want to get banned.

 

[MarkD83]

While that is probably true, the useful idiot role allowed his GOP puppeteers to win the long game with the judiciary. That's generational change. That's the biggest and lasting political legacy that people overlook and will make it easier to dismantle the federal system. And I mean that literally, figuratively, politically and philosophically.

social - lee, economical -lee, ecumenical -lee....

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[Furniture]

FIFY... don't let the hyperbole suck you into making blatantly false statements (though I would agree that any needless death is a tragedy and I dearly lament what has happened on both sides).

But you are right and I agree with folks above who say this is an issue that badly derails this thread. Each side has gotten in some points, let's leave it for now.

Yes please!

 

[LasVegas]

Here’s a gift article from the NYT expanding on the quote above. Israel is committing war crimes routinely.

Opinion | 65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza

“Nearly every day I was there, I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or the chest, virtually all of whom went on to die.”

www.nytimes.com

Just horrible. Horrible. My heart aches for those parents and for those kids who will never make their mark on the world as adults.

 

[burnspbesq]

And about the only good thing he did.

For a very small set of values of “good.” I’d be interested to see your list of “accomplishments” of that bag of bozos.

 

[jv001]

Just horrible. Horrible. My heart aches for those parents and for those kids who will never make their mark on the world as adults.

Yes, my heart aches for all children that don't get to make their mark on the world. Not just in war but all killing of children.

 

[jipops]

Trump back to diving into one of his favorite topics - Eugenics.

Trump suggests immigrants have 'bad genes' in latest disparagement of migrants

In the middle of a rant about immigration, Trump said, "We got a lot of bad genes in our country." His campaign said later that "bad genes" was only in reference to murderers.

www.nbcnews.com

Hmm, who else was a big fan of that theory?

Not exactly a shocker - NY Times rolls with this spineless headline as a means of sane-washing Trump's obvious white supremacist views and treat him like a totally normal Presidential candidate when comparing with Harris...

 

[robed deity]

Not exactly a shocker - NY Times rolls with this spineless headline as a means of sane-washing Trump's obvious white supremacist views and treat him like a totally normal Presidential candidate when comparing with Harris...

View attachment 18331

One of the most respected news sources being fair and balanced is well and good most of the time, but should go out the window when there's a lunatic running and our nation is in peril. Well...

 

[dudog84]

The Trump Bible, brought to you by...China.

Trump has long blasted China's trade practices. His 'God Bless the USA' Bibles were printed there

Global trade records show a printing company in China’s eastern city of Hangzhou shipped close to 120,000 of the Bibles to the United States between early February and late March.

apnews.com

Made and imported for less than $3/book, it will only cost you $59.99. Worth every penny, it has typical Trump quality.

Tim Wildsmith, a Baptist minister who reviews Bibles on his YouTube channel, said he quickly noticed the signs of a cheaply made book...

It had a faux leather cover, and words were jammed together on the pages, making it hard to read. He also found sticky pages that ripped when pulled apart, and there was no copyright page or information about who printed the Bible, or where.

“I was shocked by how poor the quality of it was,” Wildsmith said. “It says to me that it’s more about the love of money than it is the love of our country.”

 

[CrazyNotCrazie]

One of the most respected news sources being fair and balanced is well and good most of the time, but should go out the window when there's a lunatic running and our nation is in peril. Well...

Very loyal NYT lifelong NYT reader here who has been getting increasingly frustrated by their coverage of this and some other issues (NYC schools, Israel, etc.). To their defense, they have been ramping up their coverage of Trump's flaws. On the top of their web site in the last day or two was an article about his questionable mental health, and there have been others. Right now one of their top headlines is "A misleading question about migrants has become a Trump talking point" which I think is pretty good. And the editorial board (which is at least theoretically run separately from the news) has had several lengthy articles about what a scary threat he is.

But still way too often they do things like this, which are infuriating. That being said, they are largely preaching to the converted. I'm still trying to figure out where the "undecideds" and "not heavily motivated" get their information, as that is the key. I'm guessing it is more from social media, TV, etc.

 

[Furniture]

Not exactly a shocker - NY Times rolls with this spineless headline as a means of sane-washing Trump's obvious white supremacist views and treat him like a totally normal Presidential candidate when comparing with Harris...

View attachment 18331

She definitely does answer some questions with a non answer but so do a lot of politicians. Has anyone ever heard the Speaker Mike Johnson? I personally give give her some latitude because I feel a real answer could be worse. Trump on the other hand…….well. Anyway the MSM just keeps piling on the criticism of her in that she is not doing enough media and voters don’t know who she is. At this point i feel is just “the MSM narrative” and what that really means is “come on our network”.

 

[CrazyNotCrazie]

For a very small set of values of “good.” I’d be interested to see your list of “accomplishments” of that bag of bozos.

They were chosen to do one thing - kill Roe v Wade. And they accomplished that. So if that is your goal, they were the useful idiots (my new favorite phrase) that you wanted. Even if your stance on that one issue contradicts your stance on so many other issues - seems kind of hypocritical to me, but what do I know.