2024-2025 Men’s Basketball Season: General Offseason Discussion

[SkyBrickey]

Two four-man platoons plus Cooper. There's just not that much drop-off in players 2-9. Jon must be at least considering it. Could dial up the defensive pressure significantly.

Unlike that 2015 Kentucky team, maybe run it for just the non-conference schedule and then settle into a more traditional 8-9 man rotation based on how all the guys have performed at 20mpg in the platoon system?

I don't think he'll do it, but he's got to be at least thinking about it as talented as Evans, K2 and the transfers are. Hard to park any of them on the deep bench.

 

[phaedrus]

I am with you, Brasil. I am not hopping on the Foster train just yet. In fact, I think he could very well be supplanted as a starter 2/3 into the season. I just don't see the fire or creativity. Perhaps he was on a trajectory to address these items before he got hurt, but I don't see him as an Alpha that could lead the team in scoring. sure, I can see him going off for 30 on a hot night, but not consistently.

Both Foster and Proctor need to improve their offensive outputs substantially for us to have the season we expect, so it's really a question of who is more likely to do so, rather than who has been better so far. Proctor has had better counting stats, but Foster will get far more usage than last year as the presumptive starting off-guard, and he'll need to make it count. Proctor may need to be more aggressive (depending who else steps up) and can't disappear every so often like he has had a tendency to do.

Well, I wouldn't call it a problem . If Flagg is the best choice 1 through 5 and Jon can't create a transporter malfunction (everything will be fine as long as no Coopers have goatees), find the biggest gap between Cooper and choice number 2 for each position. For me, that is at the 3. An added bonus is that the 3 is Cooper's preferred position and the position he will play at the next level. It also goes with your point of absolute advantage vs. competitive advantage. This roster is built to have a dominant defense. Don't take away from that to maybe improve the offense.

Cooper is going to play one position - in both college and in the NBA - and it's the "big wing" position. Whether you want to call it the "3" or "4" will just depend on whether we have one taller person on the court or two, but it won't much affect his offense. Few players are slotted into "small forward" or "power forward" anymore (what is Jayson Tatum? Lebron James? Brandon Ingram? Paul George? Kevin Durant? Karl Malone ain't walking through that door), and Cooper is a prototypical "forward".

 

[kmmk]

I really like

Two four-man platoons plus Cooper. There's just not that much drop-off in players 2-9. Jon must be at least considering it. Could dial up the defensive pressure significantly.

Unlike that 2015 Kentucky team, maybe run it for just the non-conference schedule and then settle into a more traditional 8-9 man rotation based on how all the guys have performed at 20mpg in the platoon system?

I don't think he'll do it, but he's got to be at least thinking about it as talented as Evans, K2 and the transfers are. Hard to park any of them on the deep bench.

I really like this approach! I get the struggle in playing 9 guys as much as they want/deserve to play. But we saw last season (and countless times before) how injuries and foul trouble rear their ugly heads and if you don't have guys prepped to be the next man up, bad things happen! As SkyBrickey said, we have to stop the desire to cap the number of guys who play regularly and park other guys on the deep bench just to stick to the beloved-for-whatever-reason 7 guy rotation!

 

[azzefkram]

Both Foster and Proctor need to improve their offensive outputs substantially for us to have the season we expect, so it's really a question of who is more likely to do so, rather than who has been better so far. Proctor has had better counting stats, but Foster will get far more usage than last year as the presumptive starting off-guard, and he'll need to make it count. Proctor may need to be more aggressive (depending who else steps up) and can't disappear every so often like he has had a tendency to do.


Cooper is going to play one position - in both college and in the NBA - and it's the "big wing" position. Whether you want to call it the "3" or "4" will just depend on whether we have one taller person on the court or two, but it won't much affect his offense. Few players are slotted into "small forward" or "power forward" anymore (what is Jayson Tatum? Lebron James? Brandon Ingram? Paul George? Kevin Durant? Karl Malone ain't walking through that door), and Cooper is a prototypical "forward".

Wings tend to refer to players playing the 2 or the 3 (Nike Basketball Positions). If you want to refer to Cooper as a forward, fine. In that case, Duke should have 2 taller players on the court next to Cooper.

 

[g111m1c]

Not only is Cooper a Grant-Hill-type do everything player, he's taller than Grant.

Yet, they all seem to be about the same height at the shoulder, which many of us agree is more important than head height (I can't recall if it was this thread or another thread where this topic was discussed).

 

[phaedrus]

Wings tend to refer to players playing the 2 or the 3 (Nike Basketball Positions). If you want to refer to Cooper as a forward, fine. In that case, Duke should have 2 taller players on the court next to Cooper.

That's why I said "big wing".

In seriousness, I think that website uses archaic terminology. All the guys I listed (Lebron, Tatum, etc.) spend much of their time as the second biggest guy on the court. None of them fits within the stated definition of Power Forward.

In that sense, I agree with you - Cooper is a Small Forward, as that position had been defined up until the pace-and-space era. But nowadays, guys like him are usually the second biggest guy on the court. There are three positions now: point/combo guard, wing, and big. (See http://basketballgrowthmindset.com/brad-stevens-3-position-lineup-philosophy/) I think Duke should embrace this.

 

[SkyBrickey]

That's why I said "big wing".

In seriousness, I think that website uses archaic terminology. All the guys I listed (Lebron, Tatum, etc.) spend much of their time as the second biggest guy on the court. None of them fits within the stated definition of Power Forward.

In that sense, I agree with you - Cooper is a Small Forward, as that position had been defined up until the pace-and-space era. But nowadays, guys like him are usually the second biggest guy on the court. There are three positions now: point/combo guard, wing, and big. (See http://basketballgrowthmindset.com/brad-stevens-3-position-lineup-philosophy/) I think Duke should embrace this.

Yep, agree with this. And looking at how Jon has put together this roster - especially in adding his three finishing pieces of Brown, Gillis, James - it's pretty obvious that he is planning on running a PG, 3 Wing, Center style of offense.

But all wings won't be equal. Most of the offensive sets will revolve around Cooper. So I think it's better to label the positions PG, Wing, Wing, Cooper, Center. Both those wings need to be able to knock down 3s to keep the floor spread and the lane open. We've got a bunch of guys that can do this in Foster, James, Gillis, Evans, K2.

 

[azzefkram]

That's why I said "big wing".

In seriousness, I think that website uses archaic terminology. All the guys I listed (Lebron, Tatum, etc.) spend much of their time as the second biggest guy on the court. None of them fits within the stated definition of Power Forward.

In that sense, I agree with you - Cooper is a Small Forward, as that position had been defined up until the pace-and-space era. But nowadays, guys like him are usually the second biggest guy on the court. There are three positions now: point/combo guard, wing, and big. (See http://basketballgrowthmindset.com/brad-stevens-3-position-lineup-philosophy/) I think Duke should embrace this.

The page was updated less than a week ago, so Nike felt the terminology was okay, but I hear what you are saying.

Cooper has a chance to be the best player in college basketball this season, but he will also be one of the youngest. College basketball has never been older. As talented and tall as Cooper is, he is still a 17-year-old who weighs 205 lbs. The closer to the post you get, the more physical the game becomes. Cooper is not an overpowering player, so I think having him defend players who will probably have 15-25 lbs and 2-3 years of physical maturity on him is a poor use of his gifts. Cooper should be in space where he can cause havoc.

 

[SkyBrickey]

The page was updated less than a week ago, so Nike felt the terminology was okay, but I hear what you are saying.

Cooper has a chance to be the best player in college basketball this season, but he will also be one of the youngest. College basketball has never been older. As talented and tall as Cooper is, he is still a 17-year-old who weighs 205 lbs. The closer to the post you get, the more physical the game becomes. Cooper is not an overpowering player, so I think having him defend players who will probably have 15-25 lbs and 2-3 years of physical maturity on him is a poor use of his gifts. Cooper should be in space where he can cause havoc.

Azz, maybe you missed Cooper's putback and-one over the top of Bam Abedayo??

And you think Cooper can't (or shouldn't) cover ACC 4s, most of whom these days are playing outside the lane and launching 3s?

Let's look at it this way. What ACC 4 do you think Cooper would have any difficulty covering?

Not UNC's guys for sure. They will either start the 6-9, 215 Jaelyn Withers who is far from a "banger" or the 6-7 Cade Tyson who may never stick his nose in an ACC lane.

So what ACC 4 will give Cooper problems?

 

[Norman Pfyster]

So what ACC 4 will give Cooper problems?

I'm not sure what anyone means by "problems," having not seen Cooper play defense in the post against big guys, but if size is the concern, Ian Schieffelin from Clemson, for one. 6'8", 240 lbs and skilled. (Incidentally, Clemson is a really big team.) Efton Reid from Wake is a load (6'11"; 240 lbs), too, although he could be seen as a center. So many newcomers, it's hard to say.

 

[g111m1c]

Azz, maybe you missed Cooper's putback and-one over the top of Bam Abedayo??

And you think Cooper can't (or shouldn't) cover ACC 4s, most of whom these days are playing outside the lane and launching 3s?

Let's look at it this way. What ACC 4 do you think Cooper would have any difficulty covering?

Not UNC's guys for sure. They will either start the 6-9, 215 Jaelyn Withers who is far from a "banger" or the 6-7 Cade Tyson who may never stick his nose in an ACC lane.

So what ACC 4 will give Cooper problems?

Maliq Brown? Oh wait…hmm.

 

[cato]

The thing I love about that final play is that we see Coop cut through the lane and not get the ball. Seconds later, Brandon Podziemski gets his weak shot blocked by AD to secure the win for Team USA and we see Cooper turn to the bench and shrug in disgust that he wasn't given the ball on the play.

He was on a team full of young NBA stars... playing against the absolute best players in the world... and he is mad that he didn't get the ball for the last shot.

Kid has unending confidence and moxie with the skills and ability to back it up. I feel entirely comfortable predicting that he and Wemby are going to be the faces of the league for a long time.

Great call. That sequence tells me more about Flagg than anything else I’ve seen.

 

[SkyBrickey]

I'm not sure what anyone means by "problems," having not seen Cooper play defense in the post against big guys, but if size is the concern, Ian Schieffelin from Clemson, for one. 6'8", 240 lbs and skilled. (Incidentally, Clemson is a really big team.) Efton Reid from Wake is a load (6'11"; 240 lbs), too, although he could be seen as a center. So many newcomers, it's hard to say.

I don't think Efton Reid is playing the 4. Isn't he a Center?

Yes, Shef is the one ACC 4 who stands out as a skilled interior scorer. He would have bulk on Cooper, but Cooper would have length and athleticism. Shef is a tough matchup for anyone - Maliq Brown included.

Any other 4s that play like Shef? There may be more but I'm not aware of them.

 

[phaedrus]

The page was updated less than a week ago, so Nike felt the terminology was okay, but I hear what you are saying.

Cooper has a chance to be the best player in college basketball this season, but he will also be one of the youngest. College basketball has never been older. As talented and tall as Cooper is, he is still a 17-year-old who weighs 205 lbs. The closer to the post you get, the more physical the game becomes. Cooper is not an overpowering player, so I think having him defend players who will probably have 15-25 lbs and 2-3 years of physical maturity on him is a poor use of his gifts. Cooper should be in space where he can cause havoc.

My comments about "big wing" versus 3/4 weren't meant to state a position about whether Cooper should play primarily with two bigger players (i.e. Khaman and Maliq) or not, on which I'm agnostic. I think he will sometimes be the second biggest guy (i.e., the 4) and sometimes the third (i.e., the 3), and it will come down to matchups, the need for rest, and who has been performing well.

My only prediction is that at the end of the season, he will have played plenty of "3" and "4", and you and SkyBrickey will argue for the rest of time about what position he really played on the '24-'25 championship team.

 

[SkyBrickey]

My comments about "big wing" versus 3/4 weren't meant to state a position about whether Cooper should play primarily with two bigger players (i.e. Khaman and Maliq) or not, on which I'm agnostic. I think he will sometimes be the second biggest guy (i.e., the 4) and sometimes the third (i.e., the 3), and it will come down to matchups, the need for rest, and who has been performing well.

My only prediction is that at the end of the season, he will have played plenty of "3" and "4", and you and SkyBrickey will argue for the rest of time about what position he really played on the '24-'25 championship team.

No, I'm predicting he will strictly play the "Cooper" position. That covers point guard and center too.

 

[phaedrus]

I'm not sure what anyone means by "problems," having not seen Cooper play defense in the post against big guys, but if size is the concern, Ian Schieffelin from Clemson, for one. 6'8", 240 lbs and skilled. (Incidentally, Clemson is a really big team.) Efton Reid from Wake is a load (6'11"; 240 lbs), too, although he could be seen as a center. So many newcomers, it's hard to say.

That's the thing about small-ball - you inevitably give up size to a team that plays traditional big men, but the idea is that you more than compensate for it by torching them on offense (threes are worth more than twos, and free throws are better than both, if you can hit them). If you have the skill to do it, you voluntarily give up some post-ups and offensive rebounds, and you win the efficiency game.

 

[SkyBrickey]

That's the thing about small-ball - you inevitably give up size to a team that plays traditional big men, but the idea is that you more than compensate for it by torching them on offense (threes are worth more than twos, and free throws are better than both, if you can hit them). If you have the skill to do it, you voluntarily give up some post-ups and offensive rebounds, and you win the efficiency game.

Yeah, if Cooper is guarding Shef then Shef also has to guard Cooper. Shef is a different challenge than guarding Cade Tyson, but I think we already know Cooper loves a challenge.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't view playing Cooper alongside a Center as a small ball lineup. Cooper is a long 6-9 and is an explosive leader. I've said before, I think if Jon were to conjure up a big-wing 4 in the lab, he would look exactly like Flagg.

 

[JayZee]

Yeah, if Cooper is guarding Shef then Shef also has to guard Cooper. Shef is a different challenge than guarding Cade Tyson, but I think we already know Cooper loves a challenge.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't view playing Cooper alongside a Center as a small ball lineup. Cooper is a long 6-9 and is an explosive leader. I've said before, I think if Jon were to conjure up a big-wing 4 in the lab, he would look exactly like Flagg.

A big wing 4 who very often brings the ball up.

I think that if Khaman or Maliq can demonstrate a reliable shot, we could see some REALLY big lineups. If not, Cooper will almost always be the second biggest, well tallest, guy on the court for us.

 

[DukieTiger]

Bart Torvik updated his preseason projections and Duke’s solidly in his top tier (of two teams). Knowing that projections like this are the very definition of inexact… I still have to say - the projections he has for Flagg are rather eye-popping.

T-Page for Duke - Customizable College Basketball Tempo Free Stats - T-Rank

T-Rank College Basketball Ratings and Rankings. And fun.

www.barttorvik.com

 

[stickdog]