2024-2025 Another Duke MBB Preseason Discussion (I Give Up)

azzefkram said:
I would imagine that Cooper would at least be very good no matter where Jon puts him, but it's about something other than Cooper being very good. For this team to reach its potential, its best player needs to be great. More than likely, Cooper won't be great at the 4. I have two seasons of a data that show that Maliq is not great at the 5.

Here's the thing. Cooper played for the Select Team. Word out of the practices was that he was abused in the post but held his own, maybe even excelled on the perimeter. He was playing against NBA All-Stars in both places. If he can hold his own against NBA All-Stars on the perimeter, that's where I want him to play in college. If Kon, or Evans, or Harris, or Sion, or Mason get fewer minutes, so be it. I want Duke's best player in the best position to have the most positive impact.
Click to expand...
I hear you loud and clear, but you've got to admit that if it was Jon's plan to play Cooper alongside two "bigs", it would have made sense to add another transfer big to the team instead of bringing in Sion and Mason.

I don't think Jon views Cooper and Maliq quite the way you do... I think he assembled this team very purposefully. And I think Cooper will play a Shane Battier type role on this team - but with the ball in his hands as a playmaker a bit more than Battier.

The 2001 team is an interesting comp to me just because of the do-everything play of Battier. Far from a perfect comp. There's no Jay Williams. But it's still interesting to look at

JW/Duhon = Proctor/Foster (Sion)
Dunleavy = K2 (Mason)
Battier = Flagg
Boozer = Maluach (Brown)
 
And I get the whole Cooper at the 3 argument. He will almost certainly play SF in the NBA. His perimeter ball skills have come a long way and he can definitely guard any 3 in the country. But he will be an absolute terror at the 4 on this Duke team.

But I don't agree that Maliq Brown won't be effective for us at the 5. Makes no sense at all to me. Ok, he's not Donovan Klingan. But on defense he was first team all-ACC guarding 5s for much of the ACC season. And he was a 99th percentile efficient scorer in the paint last season! MUCH better than Flip or Lively. His rebounding was not great but good enough at 9.7 per 40 min.

So other than him being 6-8 and not 6-10, I really don't get the issue with Maliq at center. Didn't Houston have the #1 defense in the country last year starting a 6-8 and 6-7 guy as their bigs?

I still hope Maluach emerges as a dominant center but Maliq is one helluva Plan B...
 
SkyBrickey said:
I hear you loud and clear, but you've got to admit that if it was Jon's plan to play Cooper alongside two "bigs", it would have made sense to add another transfer big to the team instead of bringing in Sion and Mason.

I don't think Jon views Cooper and Maliq quite the way you do... I think he assembled this team very purposefully. And I think Cooper will play a Shane Battier type role on this team - but with the ball in his hands as a playmaker a bit more than Battier.

The 2001 team is an interesting comp to me just because of the do-everything play of Battier. Far from a perfect comp. There's no Jay Williams. But it's still interesting to look at

JW/Duhon = Proctor/Foster (Sion)
Dunleavy = K2 (Mason)
Battier = Flagg
Boozer = Maluach (Brown)
Click to expand...
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the first two paragraphs. Pat is a top-25 recruit after missing his senior year. He is perfectly capable of filling the Ryan Young role. If he were asked to be the starter, I would have significant concerns. Khaman is a top-10 recruit. Maliq is an All-ACC defender. Duke typically goes with a three man rotation for 4 and 5. Khaman, Maliq, and Pat can cover that with a sprinkling of Cooper and Mason.

I find it interesting that most of the time when people say that Cooper should play the 4, it is for non-Cooper reasons.

As for your comp, I tend to find all comps to have far too much square peg in round hole. It reminds of my youngest building legos when he really doesn't want to.
 
azzefkram said:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the first two paragraphs. Pat is a top-25 recruit after missing his senior year. He is perfectly capable of filling the Ryan Young role. If he were asked to be the starter, I would have significant concerns. Khaman is a top-10 recruit. Maliq is an All-ACC defender. Duke typically goes with a three man rotation for 4 and 5. Khaman, Maliq, and Pat can cover that with a sprinkling of Cooper and Mason.

I find it interesting that most of the time when people say that Cooper should play the 4, it is for non-Cooper reasons.

As for your comp, I tend to find all comps to have far too much square peg in round hole. It reminds of my youngest building legos when he really doesn't want to.
Click to expand...
Ok, you're still going with Pat at 15mpg leaving K2 and Evans on the deep bench? You are a man of conviction, Azz!

When Foster said "I can't wait for people to see Kon play", I don't think he was talking about the last 3 minutes in blow-out wins... 😁

You and I need to get some new dance moves!
 
SkyBrickey said:
And I get the whole Cooper at the 3 argument. He will almost certainly play SF in the NBA. His perimeter ball skills have come a long way and he can definitely guard any 3 in the country. But he will be an absolute terror at the 4 on this Duke team.

But I don't agree that Maliq Brown won't be effective for us at the 5. Makes no sense at all to me. Ok, he's not Donovan Klingan. But on defense he was first team all-ACC guarding 5s for much of the ACC season. And he was a 99th percentile efficient scorer in the paint last season! MUCH better than Flip or Lively. His rebounding was not great but good enough at 9.7 per 40 min.

So other than him being 6-8 and not 6-10, I really don't get the issue with Maliq at center. Didn't Houston have the #1 defense in the country last year starting a 6-8 and 6-7 guy as their bigs?

I still hope Maluach emerges as a dominant center but Maliq is one helluva Plan B...
Click to expand...
He was an All-ACC defender because he led the league in steals, not because of how he defended opposing 5s.

Houston's "bigs" had block rates of 4.5, 10.3, and 8.9. Maliq's has been 3.2 for 2 seasons.

His defensive rebounding rate of 18.7 is a lot closer to the not good range than good enough. You know I think Maliq will be a very good player for Duke but I don't see it as a 5.
 
azzefkram said:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with the first two paragraphs. Pat is a top-25 recruit after missing his senior year. He is perfectly capable of filling the Ryan Young role. If he were asked to be the starter, I would have significant concerns. Khaman is a top-10 recruit. Maliq is an All-ACC defender. Duke typically goes with a three man rotation for 4 and 5. Khaman, Maliq, and Pat can cover that with a sprinkling of Cooper and Mason.

I find it interesting that most of the time when people say that Cooper should play the 4, it is for non-Cooper reasons.

As for your comp, I tend to find all comps to have far too much square peg in round hole. It reminds of my youngest building legos when he really doesn't want to.
Click to expand...
Curious, do you feel like Jayson Tatum (6-8 205), Shane Battier and Grant Hill all played out of position at the 4 at Duke as well?

Also, isn't stealing the ball from an opposing center even better than blocking his shot? 🤓
 
Last edited:
azzefkram said:
He was an All-ACC defender because he led the league in steals, not because of how he defended opposing 5s.

Houston's "bigs" had block rates of 4.5, 10.3, and 8.9. Maliq's has been 3.2 for 2 seasons.

His defensive rebounding rate of 18.7 is a lot closer to the not good range than good enough. You know I think Maliq will be a very good player for Duke but I don't see it as a 5.
Click to expand...
He's very much a small ball 5 when he plays there. He excels at positioning and denying/deflecting/stealing entry passes, and has elite switchability. And those traits can more than compensate for the block and defensive rebounding rates, especially depending on scheme and personnel around him. Maliq may very well be our starting PF but also play at least half his minutes as a small ball 5.
 
SkyBrickey said:
Ok, you're still going with Pat at 15mpg leaving K2 and Evans on the deep bench? You are a man of conviction, Azz!

When Foster said "I can't wait for people to see Kon play", I don't think he was talking about the last 3 minutes in blow-out wins... 😁

You and I need to get some new dance moves!
Click to expand...
My only dance move is the I care about the starters, I care about the starters, I care about the starters with a cha-cha-cha of the bench works itself out flourish at the end.

Needless to say, the AMA has recommended that no one make direct eye contact with my dancing.
 
azzefkram said:
We have already gone over this. I love gabbing with you SkyB, but let's leave the poor dead horse alone.
Click to expand...
I don't remember you ever answering that question, but you're not obligated to. BTW, as you know, all 3 of those guys went on to play SF in the NBA. Ok, dead 🐴!
 
SkyBrickey said:
BTW, as you know, all 3 of those guys went on to play SF in the NBA. Ok, dead 🐴!
Click to expand...
Tatum plays the 4 a lot of the time for the Cs. In fact, that is the position he starts at (unless you think DWhite, Jru, or Jaylen Brown are playing the 4).
 
JasonEvans said:
Tatum plays the 4 a lot of the time for the Cs. In fact, that is the position he starts at (unless you think DWhite, Jru, or Jaylen Brown are playing the 4).
Click to expand...
Right. Great point JE. I think Cooper is a better defender and rebounder than JT. So in a Celts style NBA offense, he could line up at PF - assuming Mrs Flagg signs off...
 
The second bucket over Coop was the most impressive. That podcast a few weeks back said Kon needed to learn how to score over bigger guys inside by using higher, softer shots off the glass. Check.
 
SkyBrickey said:
The second bucket over Coop was the most impressive. That podcast a few weeks back said Kon needed to learn how to score over bigger guys inside by using higher, softer shots off the glass. Check.
Click to expand...
Bigger guys seem to want to lay back off him a little bit, thinking he might drive it in his sneakily athletic manner. Like Grayson Allen, Kon will have to show that he can and indeed will drive it if he wants to keep defenders off balance.
 
brevity said:
Andy Katz has put together a few lists for the upcoming season.
Click to expand...

Now he's going class by class.

Top 12 freshmen

1. Cooper Flagg, Duke
2. Ace Bailey, Rutgers
3. Dylan Harper, Rutgers
4. Liam McNeeley, Connecticut
5. Derik Queen, Maryland
6. VJ Edgecombe, Baylor
7. Khaman Maluach, Duke
8. Tre Johnson, Texas
9. Donavan Freeman, Syracuse
10. Ian Jackson, UNC
11. Jalil Bethea, Miami
12. Will Riley, Illinois

Top 12 sophomores

1. JT Toppin, Texas Tech
2. Josh Hubbard, Mississippi State
3. Mackenzie Mgbako, Indiana
4. Aden Holloway, Alabama
5. Jackson Shelstad, Oregon
6. Caleb Foster, Duke
7. Elliot Cadeau, UNC
8. Aaron Bradshaw, Ohio State
9. DJ Wagner, Arkansas
10. Collin Murray-Boyles, South Carolina
11. Camden Heide, Purdue
12. Jeremy Fears, Michigan State

Top 12 juniors

1. Alex Karaban, Connecticut
2. Braden Smith, Purdue
3. Bruce Thornton, Ohio State
4. Tamin Lipsey, Iowa State
5. AJ Storr, Kansas
6. Robbie Avila, St. Louis
7. Tyrese Proctor, Duke
8. Rylan Griffen, Kansas
9. Milos Uzan, Houston
10. Desmond Claude, USC
11. Fletcher Loyer, Purdue
12. Ugonna Onyenso, Kansas State

Top 12 seniors

1. Great Osobor, Washington
2. Kam Jones, Marquette
3. Hunter Sallis, Wake Forest
4. Tucker DeVries, West Virginia
5. Yaxel Lendeborg, UAB
6. Ryan Nembhard, Gonzaga
7. Payton Sandfort, Iowa
8. Wade Taylor IV, Texas A&M
9. Zakal Zeigler, Tennessee
10. Graham Ike, Gonzaga
11. Tyon Grant-Foster, Grand Canyon
12. Tyson Degenhart, Boise State

Top 12 super seniors

1. Hunter Dickinson, Kansas
2. Ryan Kalkbrenner, Creighton
3. Mark Sears, Alabama
4. RJ Davis, UNC
5. Johni Broome, Auburn
6. Caleb Love, Arizona
7. Johnell Davis, Arkansas
8. J'Wan Roberts, Houston
9. Norchad Omier, Baylor
10. Kadary Richmond, St. John's
11. LJ Cryer, Houston
12. Oumar Ballo, Indiana
 
brevity said:
Now he's going class by class.

Top 12 freshmen

1. Cooper Flagg, Duke
2. Ace Bailey, Rutgers
3. Dylan Harper, Rutgers
4. Liam McNeeley, Connecticut
5. Derik Queen, Maryland
6. VJ Edgecombe, Baylor
7. Khaman Maluach, Duke
8. Tre Johnson, Texas
9. Donavan Freeman, Syracuse
10. Ian Jackson, UNC
11. Jalil Bethea, Miami
12. Will Riley, Illinois

Top 12 sophomores

1. JT Toppin, Texas Tech
2. Josh Hubbard, Mississippi State
3. Mackenzie Mgbako, Indiana
4. Aden Holloway, Alabama
5. Jackson Shelstad, Oregon
6. Caleb Foster, Duke
7. Elliot Cadeau, UNC
8. Aaron Bradshaw, Ohio State
9. DJ Wagner, Arkansas
10. Collin Murray-Boyles, South Carolina
11. Camden Heide, Purdue
12. Jeremy Fears, Michigan State

Top 12 juniors

1. Alex Karaban, Connecticut
2. Braden Smith, Purdue
3. Bruce Thornton, Ohio State
4. Tamin Lipsey, Iowa State
5. AJ Storr, Kansas
6. Robbie Avila, St. Louis
7. Tyrese Proctor, Duke
8. Rylan Griffen, Kansas
9. Milos Uzan, Houston
10. Desmond Claude, USC
11. Fletcher Loyer, Purdue
12. Ugonna Onyenso, Kansas State

Top 12 seniors

1. Great Osobor, Washington
2. Kam Jones, Marquette
3. Hunter Sallis, Wake Forest
4. Tucker DeVries, West Virginia
5. Yaxel Lendeborg, UAB
6. Ryan Nembhard, Gonzaga
7. Payton Sandfort, Iowa
8. Wade Taylor IV, Texas A&M
9. Zakal Zeigler, Tennessee
10. Graham Ike, Gonzaga
11. Tyon Grant-Foster, Grand Canyon
12. Tyson Degenhart, Boise State

Top 12 super seniors

1. Hunter Dickinson, Kansas
2. Ryan Kalkbrenner, Creighton
3. Mark Sears, Alabama
4. RJ Davis, UNC
5. Johni Broome, Auburn
6. Caleb Love, Arizona
7. Johnell Davis, Arkansas
8. J'Wan Roberts, Houston
9. Norchad Omier, Baylor
10. Kadary Richmond, St. John's
11. LJ Cryer, Houston
12. Oumar Ballo, Indiana
Click to expand...
Very happy to see Duke's returning players on these lists. I expect big things from both of them.
 
Back to Stanley Borden… As alluded to several times right on this board (don’t ask me to find where), Stanley had two serious injuries last season, although there was little press on it, and it seems that it was decided that he was redshirting. Stanley could play or potentially be starting at 80% of D1 schools, but he did the old-school thing we all want: stayed at Duke for his whole career. imagine what it must be like when you are playing with/behind Derek Lively, Mark Mitchell, Paolo, et al. It must take real dedication to the team, to do the work year after year in such conditions, and to be doing so as a walk on! And I am sure he has learned a ton. So I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think that a 7 foot senior might find a role on this year‘s team, especially with an opening at the five.
Cannot wait for the season to start!
Go Duke! 9f!
 
kidA said:
Back to Stanley Borden… As alluded to several times right on this board (don’t ask me to find where), Stanley had two serious injuries last season, although there was little press on it, and it seems that it was decided that he was redshirting. Stanley could play or potentially be starting at 80% of D1 schools, but he did the old-school thing we all want: stayed at Duke for his whole career. imagine what it must be like when you are playing with/behind Derek Lively, Mark Mitchell, Paolo, et al. It must take real dedication to the team, to do the work year after year in such conditions, and to be doing so as a walk on! And I am sure he has learned a ton. So I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to think that a 7 foot senior might find a role on this year‘s team, especially with an opening at the five.
Cannot wait for the season to start!
Go Duke! 9f!
Click to expand...
Yes… just like our very own JRob…:cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top