2020 Presidential Election

[Steven43]

Ducey IS throwing down the gauntlet, and he's doing it on twitter so it will be noticed .



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ocid=Peregrine

Wow, I am impressed with the way Arizona conducts elections. I’m not necessarily saying I agree with every aspect of how they do things, but there is no doubt they have tight control of each step of the process, with plenty of verifiability and accountability.

[JasonEvans]

Wow, I am impressed with the way Arizona conducts elections. I’m not necessarily saying I agree with every aspect of how they do things, but there is no doubt they have tight control of each step of the process, with plenty of verifiability and accountability.

I think what we are seeing from Arizona, Georgia, and other places where Trump has questioned the integrity of the process is that local officials are darn proud of the effort it takes to pull off an election. In most cases, they have been working at it for many months (if not years) and they see his attacks on their results as an attack on their competence as well as a personal insult. Many of these folks are partisans who personally back the President, but he is essentially saying, "You had one job... and you screwed it up." I don't care who you wanted to win the election, that's tough to stomach, especially if you are pretty sure you did nothing to screw it up and think that the whole thing actually went off without a hitch.

I have to think this kind of thing threatens to split the GOP. Either you believe, without any evidence, that the election was rigged or you think it was fair and have to question the motives of your party's leader. Trump is making it so you cannot support him and also believe that the election was legitimate. I just don't see how these Governors and Secy of State and local election officials who are members of the GOP can continue to back him in a meaningful way... and we sure as heck won't see him back them, I suspect.

-Jason "I am really eager to see if all of this really does impact the Ga senate races... and I am dying to see how Trump acts when he comes to Ga to campaign next weekend" Evans

[gumbomoop]

I think we can still discuss different points but due it discretely.

For example, I believe that everyone is over estimating the grip that Trump has on the Republican party.

The national review (a conservative publication) is not taking too kindly to Trump's actions.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...ceful-endgame/

In addition, the Lincoln Project is still out there and I thought they would be finished once the election was over.

https://lincolnproject.us/video/leaders/

Any thoughts?

I’d like to try to clarify several things.

1. Trump’s R Party is substantially — not entirely, but substantially — different from the traditional GOP. True enough, a solid majority of Trump voters are longtime Rs, but plenty of his white working class voters say they voted for Obama, say they used to be Ds, etc. A meaningful number of evangelicals were once Ds, too. More important, Trumpism is heavily invested in culture-war issues: race, immigration, gay marriage, religious freedom, gun rights, political correctness. Trumpism comes from a palpable sense of loss, multiple grievances, deep anger. Jettisoned are traditional conservative norms such as humility, prudence, acceptance of incremental change, trust in hierarchical institutions, insistence on personal responsibility and character. Trumpists celebrate chaos; circumspection is for snowflakes.

2. Thus, Trump’s R Party is not conservative. This is why so many traditional, still actual conservatives fiercely reject Trump, his Republican legislative sycophants, and Trumpism as a movement-party. They recognize that their party has been hijacked by conspiracy-theory-minded reactionary populists. Trumpists, unlike actual conservatives, do not trust institutions, believe they have been betrayed by educated experts, and happily announce their preference for bedlam over stability, for a strongman savior over respect for law and order, constitutionalism, democracy.

3. We have examples of such movements in American history. Consider the parallels between the rise of Trumpism and the remarkable rise and temporary success of the Second Ku Klux Klan of a century ago (1920s). Not merely a racist organization (though that it certainly was), the Second Klan rose in the destabilized aftermath of a Great War, blamed Bolshevism, liberals, the “New Woman,” and non-“Anglo-Saxons” for social ills, fought culture wars (Prohibition, purity crusades) on behalf of “100% American” values, and garnered fervent support among evangelical fundamentalists.

4. That word “populism.” Few commentators on our national politics distinguish between progressive populism and regressive-reactionary populism. Future-oriented progressive populists in the late-19th century presented a fierce critique of monopoly capitalism (rather than of entrepreneurial capitalism per se). Yet gradually populism succumbed to racial prejudice and xenophobia, re-emerging in the 1920s, after a limited Progressive Era, in the form of the Second Klan. Little of Trumpism is forward-looking or focused on meaningful solutions to the awful inequality that besets our country and has for decades. It is an almost primal scream to stop history in its tracks, to regress to a mythical golden era, the 1950s. If not the 1920s.

[cato]

I’m probably wrong, but I think he is at his zenith right now.

* he loses a big megaphone January 20th
* he is a loser (of an election)
* he faces a state court indictment for tax fraud in NYC
* he may face federal indictments, or at minimum will have stories coming out
* his tax returns will come out soon and that will not help
* his financial situation faces serious public instability
* he has pissed on FoxNews, which doesn’t really need him anymore
* he is not in great health (physical)
* he is arguably in mental decline (trying to keep this one neutral)
* several skilled rivals are looking to take his place
* at some point soon, he’s yesterday’s news in this short attention span theatre of a world we inhabit.

I will be the first to admit that you take Trump lightly at your own risk. But, he can only go down from here IMO.

I am not counting Trump out for a second. He is a formidable force and no one has knocked him out since he entered the political ring.

That said, I agree he will be past his zenith when Biden assumes the presidency. And four years is a long time. Especially when you are in your seventies.

[Steven43]

In addition, the Lincoln Project is still out there and I thought they would be finished once the election was over.

https://lincolnproject.us/video/leaders/

Any thoughts?

Wow, the Lincoln Project still running hot. I’m impressed by their relentlessness.

[MarkD83]

I’d like to try to clarify several things.

1. Trump’s R Party is substantially — not entirely, but substantially — different from the traditional GOP. True enough, a solid majority of Trump voters are longtime Rs, but plenty of his white working class voters say they voted for Obama, say they used to be Ds, etc. A meaningful number of evangelicals were once Ds, too. More important, Trumpism is heavily invested in culture-war issues: race, immigration, gay marriage, religious freedom, gun rights, political correctness. Trumpism comes from a palpable sense of loss, multiple grievances, deep anger. Jettisoned are traditional conservative norms such as humility, prudence, acceptance of incremental change, trust in hierarchical institutions, insistence on personal responsibility and character. Trumpists celebrate chaos; circumspection is for snowflakes.

2. Thus, Trump’s R Party is not conservative. This is why so many traditional, still actual conservatives fiercely reject Trump, his Republican legislative sycophants, and Trumpism as a movement-party. They recognize that their party has been hijacked by conspiracy-theory-minded reactionary populists. Trumpists, unlike actual conservatives, do not trust institutions, believe they have been betrayed by educated experts, and happily announce their preference for bedlam over stability, for a strongman savior over respect for law and order, constitutionalism, democracy.

3. We have examples of such movements in American history. Consider the parallels between the rise of Trumpism and the remarkable rise and temporary success of the Second Ku Klux Klan of a century ago (1920s). Not merely a racist organization (though that it certainly was), the Second Klan rose in the destabilized aftermath of a Great War, blamed Bolshevism, liberals, the “New Woman,” and non-“Anglo-Saxons” for social ills, fought culture wars (Prohibition, purity crusades) on behalf of “100% American” values, and garnered fervent support among evangelical fundamentalists.

4. That word “populism.” Few commentators on our national politics distinguish between progressive populism and regressive-reactionary populism. Future-oriented progressive populists in the late-19th century presented a fierce critique of monopoly capitalism (rather than of entrepreneurial capitalism per se). Yet gradually populism succumbed to racial prejudice and xenophobia, re-emerging in the 1920s, after a limited Progressive Era, in the form of the Second Klan. Little of Trumpism is forward-looking or focused on meaningful solutions to the awful inequality that besets our country and has for decades. It is an almost primal scream to stop history in its tracks, to regress to a mythical golden era, the 1950s. If not the 1920s.

This is a great history lesson. Does this mean we actually have 3 legitimate parties right now? Two of them fight it out in the Republican primaries. Also does the Trump party require Donald Trump to sustain itself? It has been called a cult and I don’t see Cruz Rubio Haley etc as having the hutzpa to be the central cult figure.

[bundabergdevil]

I don't think it's partisan to say this is disturbing.



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ocid=Peregrine

Lawyers: If somebody takes a shot at Krebs, is DiGenova and/or the Trump campaign in any legal jeopardy?

Edit to add: I'm an anybody, and I think the election went well. Time to go into ninja mode!

Trump and his political people certainly use the language of violence and retribution and war a lot. It has been no surprise that right wing terrorism has been on an upswing and DHS called it a persistent, lethal threat.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/u...ts-russia.html

[OldPhiKap]

It was there. I took the shot.

Clemmons = Alexander Hamilton? Or, Austin Rivers?

[OldPhiKap]

-Jason "I am really eager to see if all of this really does impact the Ga senate races... and I am dying to see how Trump acts when he comes to Ga to campaign next weekend" Evans

I think he’s coming this Saturday, not next weekend:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tr...ng-01606793706

In other words — a few days before the Safe Harbor date (a week from today).

(interesting Georgia discussion in the article as well)

I can’t imagine Trump views this as anything other than a personal rally to decry the “fact” that his rightful win in Georgia was stolen from him, and that “faithless” Republicans like Kemp and Raffensperger failed to answer the bell when duty called. He’s not a wing man, center stage star.

[Lord Ash]

Interesting article from the NYT about how much money the Trump campaign is still pulling in... at $170 million so far, and still AGGRESSIVELY fundraising; they just sent out an email saying that 11/30 was the most important deadline of the entire campaign, and apparently if you donate it automatically signs you up for weekly donations unless you notice a checked box and opt out. The majority is going to a Trump PAC set up in November.

https://twitter.com/ShaneGoldmacher/...35143706284033

I do wonder... where does all this money go, once it gets to the PAC? And are there are rules about how it is spent once it gets there? Because PACs seem to be very loosely regulated. Like, could Trump just take this money and use it to live off of and lay off debts, saying that those are all just political moves?

[bundabergdevil]

Great article from the NYT about how much money the Trump campaign is still pulling in... at $170 million so far, and still AGGRESSIVELY fundraising; they just sent out an email saying that 11/30 was the most important deadline of the entire campaign, and apparently if you donate it automatically signs you up for weekly donations unless you notice a checked box and opt out. The majority is going to a Trump PAC set up in November.

https://twitter.com/ShaneGoldmacher/...35143706284033

I do wonder... where does all this money go, once it gets to the PAC? And are there are rules about how it is spent once it gets there? Because PACs seem to be very loosely regulated. Like, could Trump just take this money and use it to live off of and lay off debts, saying that those are all just political moves?

Well, for one, he’s misleading his donors if he’s telling them those funds are paying for the electoral legal challenges when they’re actually going to the RNC and his new PAC. His new PAC is what’s called a Leadership PAC by the FEC and there are regulations about how funds can be used but Trump could, say, hold rallies and events at his properties for the foreseeable future to essentially “launder” the PAC money into his businesses same as he’s done with our tax dollars.

Given how he’s treated other regulated entities like his foundation, my guess is he treats the funds like his and just does anything he wants with them.

[Furniture]

-Jason "I am really eager to see if all of this really does impact the Ga senate races... and I am dying to see how Trump acts when he comes to Ga to campaign next weekend" Evans

It’s going to be interesting. There is already a very mixed message out there that could affect the runoffs. Will he clarify things or muddy the waters even more? My guess his minutes split will be 90% “the election was rigged plus pre election banter yadda, yadda” and 10% get out and vote.

[Lord Ash]

It’s going to be interesting. There is already a very mixed message out there that could affect the runoffs. Will he clarify things or muddy the waters even more? My guess his minutes split will be 90% “the election was rigged plus pre election banter yadda, yadda” and 10% get out and vote.

Yeah... I HAVE to believe he will have enough self control to do what the GOP needs him to do, rather than become self indulgent and convey the "don't bother voting, the system is rigged" message that he seems to have been tacitly endorsing in the past.

[OldPhiKap]

Speaking of Georgia, the "plan" is to have the recount finished today. (Or should I say tricount?)

Five weeks until the Senate runoff. Then I can turn my television back on.

[CameronBornAndBred]

-Jason "I am really eager to see if all of this really does impact the Ga senate races... and I am dying to see how Trump acts when he comes to Ga to campaign next weekend" Evans

Is Trump the first President to actively campaign for other candidates, welcomingly, as a loser in his own race? Of course it's rare that there is such an important election AFTER the election, much less two, and much more less in one state, but most often when a candidate (especially an incumbent) gets ousted, he/she is political poison in the short term.
I've never seen anyone that loses their office be so welcomed before as we are seeing in GA. If I were Perdue and Loeffler, I'd be welcoming the base that he is bound to fire up to the polls, but also on pins and needles in anticipation of what he may say while stumping for them.
And as someone else said, he may speak at his rally and not even mention the people that he is there for, ha! (Flashing back to poor Martha McSally being brought up on stage for 30 seconds and being told by him to speak quickly in Arizona.)

[budwom]

It’s going to be interesting. There is already a very mixed message out there that could affect the runoffs. Will he clarify things or muddy the waters even more? My guess his minutes split will be 90% “the election was rigged plus pre election banter yadda, yadda” and 10% get out and vote.

Evidently he is quite miffed that he lost Georgia and isn't particularly eager to campaign...so I expect some lashing out...

[OldPhiKap]

Is Trump the first President to actively campaign for other candidates, welcomingly, as a loser in his own race?

Great question. Can't think of any.

(I'm sure if Oly was still with us, he could drop a few examples if they existed. He would have been a great addition to this thread.)

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Is Trump the first President to actively campaign for other candidates, welcomingly, as a loser in his own race? Of course it's rare that there is such an important election AFTER the election, much less two, and much more less in one state, but most often when a candidate (especially an incumbent) gets ousted, he/she is political poison in the short term.
I've never seen anyone that loses their office be so welcomed before as we are seeing in GA. If I were Perdue and Loeffler, I'd be welcoming the base that he is bound to fire up to the polls, but also on pins and needles in anticipation of what he may say while stumping for them.
And as someone else said, he may speak at his rally and not even mention the people that he is there for, ha! (Flashing back to poor Martha McSally being brought up on stage for 30 seconds and being told by him to speak quickly in Arizona.)

I think the message they should try to get out of him is that Ossoff and Warnock are part of the Democratic party deep state that cheated him out of an election, so Georgia voters need to vote against them. That way he gets his airing of grievances, which seems to be the only thing he is capable of doing right now, and his message is at least somewhat relevant to their races.

I am still waiting for a brave soul to ask Trump for detailed proof of all of these accusations, but I'm not holding my breath...

[PackMan97]

I am still waiting for a brave soul to ask Trump for detailed proof of all of these accusations, but I'm not holding my breath...

If they are powerful enough to steal the election. They are powerful enough to cover it up afterwards. Just saying.

[Mike Corey]

Wow, the Lincoln Project still running hot. I’m impressed by their relentlessness.

They deeply want to take back the GOP so we can get back to fighting over tax policy and abortion and not [list of once non-partisan issues that may now be deemed partisan].