MBB: Duke 59, Miami 81 Post-Game Thread

[CDu]

Well if I posted it after a win, it would be pretty strange. I wouldn’t want to bring the vibe down. I feel like after a loss, we’re all somewhat on the same page.

Yeah, it used to be fun watching a team grow and develop over the course of 3-4 years. We don’t have that luxury anymore with the current landscape of CBB. Perhaps a team of 21 year old Flip/Lively/Proctor would run the table. We won’t ever know, though. I’m not saying the players are hopeless, nor are they talentless, but this iteration of the team hasn’t meshed well and they’re not doing a great job of patching their holes.

The board was just as complainy during the 2007-2009 seasons, and well into the 2010 season. So while folks may say that they enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years, that certainly hasn’t been exhibited at DBR.

Basically, folks complain whenever the team isn’t as good as they want. In 2007-09, it was complaints about Duke not being able to get the top talent anymore. In 2012-2014, it was not enough of the top talent. Now, it is that we get too much top talent and those guys don’t stay.

[lotusland]

We need to pull the plug on Jaylen Blakes, he's just not good enough to see court time vs high level competition. His vision is poor and his shot is broken.

A lineup with Blakes, Young and Lively has no spacing.

We need Whitehead taking all those minutes as soon as he's able to if we want to peak at the right time.

Blakes got 17 minutes and Schutt got 12 coming off our rivalry game on Saturday evening. I doubt those 2 would total 29 minutes in a normal game even with Whitehead out. Part of it was probably that it was a blowout loss and neither Roach nor Proctor were effective. Blakes’ offensive limitations are real but he did have a couple of good scoring games with some suffocating defense prior to the injury. There’s no question that Blake’s average mpg will go down when Whitehead returns. I suspect Schutt will pass Blakes in the rotation as he gains more game experience and confidence. That could be this year or next year. Either way, Blakes can play defensive spark plug role and he will improve some on offense as most players do as upperclassman. There’s no need to super glue him to the very end of the bench forever.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Jim Sumner's honest post game report with analysis and coach/player quotes. (And always, an encouragement to subscribe to his articles, well worth the very few dollars.)

We always knew this was going to be a difficult stretch of the season. And there’s a very good chance that Miami is the best team in the ACC.

But there’s no question that Duke’s men’s basketball took a big step in the wrong direction Monday night in the Sunshine State, getting clubbed by Miami 81-59.

https://jimsumner.substack.com/p/mia...uke-in-rematch

[Bluedog]

Inference or inside information?

I'm not jipops but Tyrese turns 19 in April, making him eligible. And he very seriously considered nba g league in his interim year before being eligible for the draft, having come from NBA academy of Australia. Coach Scheyer had said they were working on logistics to get him here early for weeks, some inferring the fear that we either get Tyrese this year or not at all because he'll be draft bound. So, while nobody has come out to explicitly state it, the writing is on the wall of what they plan was (of course plans can change), and it seems that plan is for Tyrese to move on after this season.

[hustleplays]

He should have pulled the entire team of starters after Miami's mini-run at the beginning of the second half. see how the subs perform and take it from there. The effort was unacceptable.

Sagegrouse, I agree. To be clear, it's not because our rotation players were ineffective, it's because their effort was totally unacceptable: lazy passes, lackadaisical ball handling, not being physical [3 players under the basket and 6'7' Omier gets the basket], not diving for loose balls [Roach], a total failure to show up and compete.

If you guys don't want to compete in this game, then I'll try to find someone on our roster who does. The score was beside the point, and our dignity and pride had already been shredded.

I wish Scheyer had done that, and I hope that he would do it in a similar circumstance, although I greatly hope that such an embarrassingly dismal effort won't happen again.

[Steven43]

I’ve tried to put this game in context. Quick turnaround, coming off of an emotional high, young team.. It’s not really the loss that bothers me, although I surely thought we had a decent shot at it before the game. If I had to pick one thing that I just don’t understand it’s the carelessness with the ball. - both in passing it & holding onto it. You can’t win games like that. We still may have lost, but would have had a fighting chance. I’m not foreign to having been in basketball games where you’re mentally & physically spent (not at this level of course), so I do have an understanding of the overall competitive situation. I’m sure that Coach is feeling this way as well. Just a head scratcher.

Coming into this game I fully expected Duke to lose by double digits. On the road against a good Miami team is a tall order under even ideal circumstances.

But playing them with only one day of rest having just beaten our greatest rival in an especially important game considering what UNC did to us the last two times we played? Well, this was entirely predictable. I’m completely writing this one off as far as being any kind of determinant of how the rest of the season is likely to play out.

[UrinalCake]

So while folks may say that they enjoy seeing a team develop over 3-4 years, that certainly hasn’t been exhibited at DBR…. Basically, folks complain whenever the team isn’t as good as they want.

Yep, bottom line is fans want the team to win. It doesn’t matter if we have a team of seniors, freshmen, grad students, or alien pods, as long as we’re winning fans will be happy. Some may say they care more about watching players develop and graduate than they do about winning, but that wasn’t the case pre-2010. We would have killed for Greg Oden or Mitch McGary or Kenny Boynton or any number of elite recruits.

[miramar]

He should have pulled the entire team of starters after Miami's mini-run at the beginning of the second half. see how the subs perform and take it from there. The effort was unacceptable.

But I wonder if the UM fans would have thought to say, as the Crazies used to do when Dean Smith tried it, “Oh no, the blue team!” I guess that we have learned to appreciate Smith after the fact, much as Coach K did.

All I can add is thank God that there are no real away games in the postseason.

[kako]

To be fair only 4-8 teams can be!

My point exactly. Some posts make it seem like the only bar of success is the FF, and the E8 is an unwanted consolation prize. Duke had the GOAT of coaches, and even then they didn't always make the FF or E8 or S16 or even the 2nd round. There are 350+ teams in D1, and having the bar be set at the FF is silly. Do we all want that? Sure. Is that a reasonable expectation? Once in a Duke blue moon, maybe (1992, 1999, 2002 and 2019 come to mind, and even then Duke only went 2 for 4, with only 1 natty). Is it this year? Absolutely not. This is not a dig on the team, coaching staff, etc. It's just reality given the new coach, injuries and lack of returning players. Every year, people should be satisfied if Duke makes the 2nd weekend. That still means they are in a very select group, just 16 out of 350 teams, the top 5% in the country. And on any given day, the #1 ranked team in the country could lose, so there's no guarantee of continued success at the S16. If that's not good enough at the end of the day, that just smacks of unrealistic expectations. Bemoaning that Duke this year might not make the E8 or FF or hear One Shining Moment is just ridiculous.

9F

[simplyluvin]

One thing a fitful night's sleep following a loss usually provides is some perspective (the operative word here being "usually"). I think the main reason a lot of us are so disappointed from last night is that there was some real positive growth over the last three prior games, whether it is Lively's emergence or Proctor showing signs of becoming a solid playmaker to Roach exhibiting flashes of the second coming of senior Quinn Cook, and then to see such a clunker as last night really knocks the tar out of you. Add that to, like the players themselves, still riding the emotional high of beating the Cheats, and we came crashing down pretty hard.

To paraphrase a line from Moneyball, I'll bet the lot of us on this board hate losing more than we love winning, and we really love winning. We're Duke basketball. We've been spoiled and conditioned to measure success in banners and 30-win seasons. And that's OK.

But as a lot of you have said, we can still enjoy the ride. This has been a tough season with injuries, youth, and following THE legend, but I'm certain better times are ahead, if not this season, than the next 30+. John Scheyer is absolutely the right man for the job.

We're human beings, Duke grads, and Duke fans. We take losses hard. Like Jay Williams said, every loss is like a death in the family. And we can't easily turn off the emotion we have attached to our team (just ask my poor wife). But even staring at what could be a 21-10 record going in to the ACCT (hopefully still a single bye), anything is still possible, and I am going to make it a point to enjoy the growth of this team.

We've opined ad nauseam about the perils of OAD (I for one don't like it but also think there is a right balance we can achieve), and it really stinks that we won't see the growth of guys like Whitehead, Lively, and Proctor in a Duke uniform, but we are where we are, and better times are ahead.

[kAzE]

Frustrating loss, but no reason to continue to point out any negatives that have already been said about this young team and their lack of poise in tough road games. Being young and being inconsistent is pretty much synonymous, and Miami is definitely a very tough place to play. We played great against Carolina and we played terrible at Miami. I'm sure we will continue to play great at times and terrible at times for the rest of the season. It is what it is.

Instead, I'll say that I miss having guys like Wendell Moore and Amile Jefferson to glue together the holes that are present in these young teams that we seem to have every single year at this point. Older players that you can depend on to be good on both ends every single game. You don't need to completely change recruiting strategy, that's not what I'm saying. You just need 1 or 2 of them. Guys like that are so valuable for teams like Duke and UK with the ridiculous amount of turnover we have every season. Roach was supposed to be that for this team, but he himself is somewhat inconsistent. Granted, the toe injury was a real thing that visibly bothered him for a good stretch this season, but last night, he showed that he's just as prone to bad games as the rest of the team. There's just no Wendell Moore this time.

Hopefully, we get some guys to come back next year. I would absolutely love if any of these freshmen came back. Any of them. They are all very obviously talented and I'd love to see them get better while continuing to wear this jersey.

[DukieInBrasil]

To me the one bright spot of the game was: Dereck Lively had Duke's second 10-5-5 game of the season, with 11 pts, 6 rebs and 5 blocks. Dereck has had at least one other 10-5-5 game, but as the podcast boys pointed out, the 10 did not come from points so it didn't technically count.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Being young and being inconsistent is pretty much synonymous

Here's a question. This is NOT knocking your post, just this one thought highlighted a question for me.
I've read many posts in this current discussion saying this has lots to do with Duke being "a young team".
Well, we're in the last quarter of the season. These guys have been practicing and playing together since October.

At what point does a team mature? Again, not knocking your words, or anyone else echoing you, but I'm not sure that's as much of a valid excuse any longer.

[CDu]

Here's a question. This is NOT knocking your post, just this one thought highlighted a question for me.
I've read many posts in this current discussion saying this has lots to do with Duke being "a young team".
Well, we're in the last quarter of the season. These guys have been practicing and playing together since October.

At what point does a team mature? Again, not knocking your words, or anyone else echoing you, but I'm not sure that's as much of a valid excuse any longer.

It takes more than a season. Especially when two key members are in and out of the lineup and practice with injuries.

This team, and nearly every freshman-dominated team before it, are never going to be as mature as teams with guys ages 22-24.That's the reality of being a freshman-heavy team. The team is always going to be a young team. The hope is that the talent offsets the youth. It's not an excuse. It's just reality. It's a reality that each season we hope to overcome, but it's a reality.

[kAzE]

Here's a question. This is NOT knocking your post, just this one thought highlighted a question for me.
I've read many posts in this current discussion saying this has lots to do with Duke being "a young team".
Well, we're in the last quarter of the season. These guys have been practicing and playing together since October.

At what point does a team mature? Again, not knocking your words, or anyone else echoing you, but I'm not sure that's as much of a valid excuse any longer.

We're always going to be younger than the teams we play against, that's just a fact. Even with 20+ games under their belts, these freshmen are still 18 and 19 years old. They haven't had 2-3 years of playing at this level and developing chemistry with teammates, they haven't fully grown into their bodies and aren't physically mature, they haven't developed the type of leadership qualities to help a team pull through tough games like last night. These aren't things that most players can obtain within the course of a single season. That's why the Wendells and Amiles are so important and valuable.

And I wasn't making excuses, I was just pointing out the truth of the matter: we're not that good this year. And that's okay. I still have high hopes for Jon Scheyer and the future of this program. I'll continue to watch every game and root for Duke as always, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking this is a team that can improve to the point where we could go on a Final Four run. We're just not that kind of team this season.

[CameronBornAndBred]

And I wasn't making excuses, I was just pointing out the truth of the matter: we're not that good this year. And that's okay. I still have high hopes for Jon Scheyer and the future of this program. I'll continue to watch every game and root for Duke as always, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking this is a team that can improve to the point where we could go on a Final Four run. We're just not that kind of team this season.

I'm in agreement here, for sure, but again, I'm leaning to no longer allowing "youth" be the main reason. Like you said, we're not that good this year.
Guess what? Carolina isn't either, and they've been together since I was in kindergarten. It's amazing how much of an impact that Manek made last year, but he's the singular reason that had their post season.
Sadly, we won't ever see this if this current team would get better "with age". It's possible, hopefully even probable, but the baby blues are the current poster child for geriatric suckitude in full effect. Being a "mature" team doesn't equate being a good one.

[kAzE]

I'm in agreement here, for sure, but again, I'm leaning to no longer allowing "youth" be the main reason. Like you said, we're not that good this year.
Guess what? Carolina isn't either, and they've been together since I was in kindergarten. It's amazing how much of an impact that Manek made last year, but he's the singular reason that had their post season.
Sadly, we won't ever see this if this current team would get better "with age". It's possible, hopefully even probable, but the baby blues are the current poster child for geriatric suckitude in full effect. Being a "mature" team doesn't equate being a good one.

Youth was part of my original post, but I also talked about not having every-game dependable upperclassmen. Not to keep singling out Jeremy Roach, who is a very good role player, as he was with last year’s team, but isn’t the best player for the lead guard type of role that this team needs.

This really comes down the quality of your guards/ball handlers. Even all American bigs like Bacot and Oscar Tshiebwe can’t get it done if their guards aren’t good. Guards are always going to be the biggest factor in the success of any basketball team, college or pro. Carolina's 2 veteran guards and Jeremy Roach are all sort of in the same category as shoot first guards who can get hot and win games for you, but don't always make their teammates better with the way the play, and can have bad games that kill you.

And I do believe Tyrese is a player who could develop into a winning guard, but who knows if we'll be lucky enough to have him next season. Sure was nice having Jon Scheyer and Nolan Smith for 4 years each.

[simplyluvin]

This really comes down the quality of your guards/ball handlers. Even all American bigs like Bacot and Oscar Tshiebwe can’t get it done if their guards aren’t good. Guards are always going to be the biggest factor in the success of any basketball team, college or pro. Carolina's 2 veteran guards and Jeremy Roach are all sort of in the same category as inconsistent scorers who can get hot and win games for you, but don't always make their teammates better with the way the play, and can have bad games that kill you.

And I do believe Tyrese is a player who could develop into a winning guard, but who knows if we'll be lucky enough to have him next season. Sure was nice having Jon Scheyer and Nolan Smith for 4 years each.

Couldn't agree more on the guard play in the college game. We have had our share of tremendous guard play over the years, and when we have All-ACC caliber or better guards, that's usually the straw that stirs the pot. Last year may have been one of the few exceptions, although Wendell played like a guard from the 3 spot.

One other factor for me...we've had transcendent all-world OAD guards before (Exhibit A - Kyrie and Tyus), so each time a highly rated guy like Duval or Proctor walks in to our doors, we may hold out hope that they are of that ilk and may be a little disappointed when they don't live up to that mostly unrealistic standard. At least that's how it plays in my sub-consciousness.

[heyman25]

The loss was predictable,but not the self inflicted wounds. After starting off 13 to 1 you would think this team would recover and compete. NC State loss was a surprise.This was a bigger surprise, because Duke was showing signs of progress. It all starts with the backcourt and they were tentative and really weak with all their decisions.

Pride needs to be the motivation for Saturday's game. UVA at home will be a big hurdle to jump. They beat UNC because they played as a team. It is such an inconsistent team. The older guys Roach,Young and Grandison have to become more vocal and start leading vocally and by playing like experienced basketball players. Miami should be like the UVA Ralph Sampson game. This should never happen again.

[kAzE]

Couldn't agree more on the guard play in the college game. We have had our share of tremendous guard play over the years, and when we have All-ACC caliber or better guards, that's usually the straw that stirs the pot. Last year may have been one of the few exceptions, although Wendell played like a guard from the 3 spot.

One other factor for me...we've had transcendent all-world OAD guards before (Exhibit A - Kyrie and Tyus), so each time a highly rated guy like Duval or Proctor walks in to our doors, we may hold out hope that they are of that ilk and may be a little disappointed when they don't live up to that mostly unrealistic standard. At least that's how it plays in my sub-consciousness.

The sad thing is, the NBA values shooting and ball handling way more now than they did even 10 years ago, so I’m not even sure Scheyer and Smith would stay 4 years at Duke anymore. In fact, I think if they had gone pro in 2023, both of them would have fared much better in today’s NBA than they did back in their playing days. I still believe Scheyer might have had a real chance if he didn’t have that unfortunate eye injury.

If Ty Jerome can carve out a consistent role for the warriors (which he is), I would bet a lot that Scheyer and Smith (born 10 years later) could be doing that if they were in the NBA right now.