MBB: Duke 83, Winthrop 70 Post-Game Thread

[jv001]

We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night.

Jack with 8 minutes. Alex with 6. It’s very interesting watching Coach tinker with the lineup. It’s basically 7-8 guys but not always the same 7-8.

Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

I certainly agree we will miss Cassius. The kid has a well rounded game and I've enjoyed watching him play. I like the killer look with little or no emotion. Not too high and not too low. I wish him a quick recovery but hamstring injuries can linger. All you have to do is look at some of the skilled NFL players. Adam Thielen and Tyreek Hill have dealt with sprained hamstrings this season. They've missed multiple weeks with that injury. I would hate to see Cassius come back too soon only to miss conference games as well as tournament time. Get well Cassius and we'll see you again this season. GoDuke!

[UrinalCake]

It wasn't the blowout win we would have liked, but hopefully a building block type of performance. Obviously great to see Baker break out and Hurt get his offense going too. I thought Baker's defense was fine, it's usually what we point to as the reason he doesn't get more burn but he brings a ton of energy on that side of the ball and he made some solid plays. He does have some physical limitations and gets beat, but he's continuing to learn the system. Goldwire also had his hands on a lot of defensive plays. If he could just hit a wide open three, like at a Tyler Thornton level, then he would be in the regular rotation and Tre could rest maybe 10 minutes a game. But given the one-dimensionalness of so many of our players which we've been discussing all season (some guys only provide defense, some only provide offense) I think we're going to be juggling lineups and minutes all season based on matchups.

On to a brutal week against two tough opponents. Hopefully we can step up our game and grind out a couple wins. If not, I'm at least hoping to see continued improvement both individually and as a team. We still need another player (ideally two) who can handle the ball besides Tre. The book is out that if you cut him off then our offense just stalls. Stanley's injury is a real bummer. Look to me at first like he jumped too early and had to lay it in instead of dunking, but that might have been caused by the injury happening earlier in the play. Really a freak type of injury, no contact or anything.

[Steven43]

Goldwire also had his hands on a lot of defensive plays. If he could just hit a wide open three, like at a Tyler Thornton level, then he would be in the regular rotation and Tre could rest maybe 10 minutes a game.

Your comment about Thornton was intriguing so I went back and took a look at his stats. Holy moly, he shot 38.5% from three for his career at Duke!! I was expecting it to be around 29%. The standard for what we as Duke fans have come to accept for 3-point shooting has fallen so much that it has skewed my memory.

I had thought of Thornton as a poor 3-point shooter, but his percentage would have led our team last year, right? Granted, Thornton could not create his own shot and was getting wide-open threes — much like Tre last year — but still. This little factoid about Thornton is a real eye-opener.

[Furniture]

A couple of games ago many loved this team and were raving about Moore, Tre, Carey and Cassius and really dissing Hurt. We are now in end of the world mode for some. Baker and Hurt had great games last night and I think what happens when they all have great games? What I mean is that this team has a huge up side. They will have their ups and downs but the potential is there.

[jv001]

It wasn't the blowout win we would have liked, but hopefully a building block type of performance. Obviously great to see Baker break out and Hurt get his offense going too. I thought Baker's defense was fine, it's usually what we point to as the reason he doesn't get more burn but he brings a ton of energy on that side of the ball and he made some solid plays. He does have some physical limitations and gets beat, but he's continuing to learn the system. Goldwire also had his hands on a lot of defensive plays. If he could just hit a wide open three, like at a Tyler Thornton level, then he would be in the regular rotation and Tre could rest maybe 10 minutes a game. But given the one-dimensionalness of so many of our players which we've been discussing all season (some guys only provide defense, some only provide offense) I think we're going to be juggling lineups and minutes all season based on matchups.

On to a brutal week against two tough opponents. Hopefully we can step up our game and grind out a couple wins. If not, I'm at least hoping to see continued improvement both individually and as a team. Stanley's injury is a real bummer. Look to me at first like he jumped too early and had to lay it in instead of dunking, but that might have been caused by the injury happening earlier in the play. Really a freak type of injury, no contact or anything.

Win or lose this week, I'm am looking for improvement from our young Duke team. I thought Javin played better this game, even though he had some Javin moments. I hope he can build on this slight improvement. I think the coaches and players are doing Javin a disservice by passing the ball to him down low because he doesn't have the skill to dribble one or two times to get to the basket and he can't take the ball up over defenders because he's not strong enough to shoot over them or through them. His . jumping ability comes from getting a running start and the rules don't allow you to do that with the ball in your hands. He played pretty well late season last year and maybe we get that from him this season. Joey Baker played a great game and we surely needed it. Matthew had 18 points in the first half but only 2 in the 2nd half. But Joey played pretty evenly with 8 points in both halves with 2 threes in each half and I thought his defense was pretty good. Their little point guard was hard to stay in front of which caused problems for our defense. We did a better job with it when Coach K went to a smaller lineup which included Goldwire. A player I think a player that can make us much better is Wendell Moore. He's a talented player that can do a lot of things but the one thing he seems to be missing is the outside shot. Right now his offense is to drive the lane every time he gets the ball. I think it was Troublemaker that said he hesitates when he receives a pass and I've seen that as well. He's thinking too much and not reacting to the play that the defense is giving him. The ball stops moving in a positive manner when Wendell receives it. Last night I saw Tre pass him up two or three times and throw the ball to another player. It makes me wonder if Tre sees the same thing we see. Moore is a very talented player but he can't be a ball stopper. If he's in the lineup with 2 of these players; Jack, Javin and Goldwire, our chances of scoring go way down if he stops the ball because not only do we have to deal with the defense, the shot clock comes into play. There's lots of things the entire team can work on to improve and I'm sure the coaching staff will help these young players get better. We may not see the improvement as quick as we would like because It's going to be a quick turn-around before we play the Spartans and then have to play VT. But the end result is what's important. This is going to be an interesting week for our Duke team but we won't know all there is to know about the 2019-2020 Duke team until Feb-March. I will try to temper my expectations a little and wait to see the finished product. Keeping in mind that things could be worse, as we could be like the cheating team down the road who has no honor and will win at all costs. We win with class and we lose with class and for that I'm so Thankful.

GoDuke!

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night.

Jack with 8 minutes. Alex with 6. It’s very interesting watching Coach tinker with the lineup. It’s basically 7-8 guys but not always the same 7-8.

Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

One wing to rule them all?

[53n206]

As for K saying we're not a 25 team. I respectfully disagree. Has he seen the field? It's the downest year that I remember.

Yes, not much strength showing up so far. Michigan? But Duke mot showing much so far. That fast, good defense we started the season with does not now exist. Any team with big guys can score inside at will, and with time to decide whether to score from the right or left side of the basket - though ,it seems to me, theft side is preferred. Of course our coaches see this. The question is whether they have options to contain our opponents inside attacks.

[3rd Dukie]

I like this team better than last year’s team. Last year was exciting, primarily because of Zion Williamson, but the style of play was frustrating. We shot (and missed) what seemed like too many threes, though I haven’t looked at the actual numbers. I also disliked the hero ball aspect of more than a few crucial late-game moments. And I didn’t care for one particular player having a sky-high usage rate. That’s not Duke Basketball. Oh, and Cam made me nervous as hell every time he touched the ball. Additionally, the Joey Baker saga was maddening.

Overall, I think this team plays with more togetherness.

Great post, Steven! I surely do agree on all points.

[roywhite]

Season to date stats after Winthrop

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11...keCombined.pdf

35.2% 3-point shooting as a team

[sagegrouse]

Season to date stats after Winthrop

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11...keCombined.pdf

35.2% 3-point shooting as a team

Ten guys, mirabile dictu, playing 12 or more minutes per game.

[Listen to Quants]

Freshman often play like you'd expect a freshman to play and that's what we're seeing with this group of kids. They have their ups and downs from game to game and at times even within the same game.

If they're still making the same mistakes over and over again by the halfway point of the season then we'll have a problem, but for now sit back and watch the growth of this team.

Boy, do I think this is right. They often look like they are playing faster than they think. Fine, they're freshmen (mostly). Classically the shock of the transition to a higher level is the speed of the game. Even with all the higher level bball they play now, they still have not played fully organized defenses with D1 talent much. If the aim is to do well in March, then this seems just right to me for Nov/Dec.

[jv001]

Season to date stats after Winthrop

https://goduke.com/documents/2019/11...keCombined.pdf

35.2% 3-point shooting as a team

Thanks roywhite for the stats. Some interesting things I saw:
Assists ytd= 124, Turnovers= 122/ (this is alarming).
FT%= .67% (not so good and has hurt us already).
Rebounds= 43.2 pg and +11.3 pg (good)
Steals= 9.6 pg (good)
Blocks= 6.3 pg (good), Goldwire even getting into the action.

And as you mentioned three pointers 35.2%. Great to see this part of our game improving.

GoDuke!

[soflabluedevil]

Yeah, I was very impressed with Moore when he was playing PG against Central Arkansas. But I haven’t seen that athletic, confident, skillful version of him since. Obviously, the potential is there, though.

Moore will be fine. Javin will always give us 2 pts, 2-3 rebs and 4 fouls in 15 minutes or less.

[soflabluedevil]

As for K saying we're not a 25 team. I respectfully disagree. Has he seen the field? It's the downest year that I remember.

K may be right, if only because there are 60 teams who can beat anyone if they have a good game. This team will be in top 15 by year end but will have a ton of close games.

[Indoor66]

Your comment about Thornton was intriguing so I went back and took a look at his stats. Holy moly, he shot 38.5% from three for his career at Duke!! I was expecting it to be around 29%. The standard for what we as Duke fans have come to accept for 3-point shooting has fallen so much that it has skewed my memory.

I had thought of Thornton as a poor 3-point shooter, but his percentage would have led our team last year, right? Granted, Thornton could not create his own shot and was getting wide-open threes — much like Tre last year — but still. This little factoid about Thornton is a real eye-opener.

The 3 point shot is longer now.

[TheOldBattleship]

My quick take on Wendell, since he's going to be the key player that needs to step up during the time that Cassius is out. (Ironically, even though Joey's played much fewer minutes, I have total confidence in him as a starter. Joey's going to hit threes, put up 120+ offensive ratings [as compared to Wendell's sub-90 offensive rating for the season on high usage!], and play passable defense.)

Wendell so far has shown an inability to function in the three main things Duke runs on offense: the horns set, the floppy set, and motion. For example, there was a floppy action last night in which Wendell curled into the lane to receive the pass, and he's open to shoot. 100% of the time, the Duke perimeter player takes the shot there or if the defense is collapsing hard on him, kicks out for an open three. Instead, Wendell pauses with the ball in his hands. He does nothing, allowing the defense to reset and forcing him to create something out of nothing. (The possession ended badly but I can't remember whether it was a turnover or missed shot).

Anyway, that's pretty typical of Wendell not doing the right thing in these sets or in motion. There *is* one set piece that Wendell likes and can function in right now, and that's spread pick-n-roll with him as the ballhandler up top. To clarify, that means Duke puts 3 stationary shooters on the wings (stationary for an easy read for the ballhandler), and then Vernon or Javin comes up to set a ball screen for him to drive into open space, and he'll either score at the rim or kick out depending on how the defense reacts. He's actually pretty good making reads and being efficient out of spread pick-n-roll, and up until recently, it was responsible for almost all of his scoring.

I think to get Wendell going and to make him effective while Cassius is out, Duke needs to accommodate him and run this set piece for him more often. The great thing is that Joey's emergence dovetails well with this suggestion. You put Matthew, Joey, and Tre (who has improved his shooting) as the stationary shooters on the wing while Vernon comes up to set the ball screen for Wendell. I believe Wendell will produce 120 offensive ratings (personal and team) out of this setup.

I really like this take on Moore in our various sets, and think it plays into what his biggest weakness is right now: quick decision-making. He's been really terrific when the decisions before him are pretty straightforward and unfold at a more leisurely pace, hence his success at running the spread p&r. That's one of the few situations this year where we're legitimately creating tons of space for a ballhandler on offense. The trouble comes when teams junk up how they defend that play; also, that way of playing can marginalize some of our best options (Carey postups/Jones generally, particularly) on offense, so we're going to be structurally limited in running it this year.

When he's needed to operate in tight quarters, as in the horns set or as the curler in the floppy action, he just is taking a bit too long to make choices as to what he wants to do with the ball, and opportunities tend to vanish on him. It almost seems like, because he's got eight zillion options racing through his head, he overthinks and loses the chance of even making the simple play. (As a good contrast, Stanley uses the fact that he's not as creative with the ball and has fewer options in those situations to his advantage. He's not trying to make anything wild happen. He either gets the rim, rises for a shot, or kicks back out.) This is a totally natural thing for a freshman, especially one who isn't a completely natural playmaker, to run into; even Jones has been having some decision-making trouble in these situation.

I wonder, though, if it would be better long-term to keep pushing Moore here with these kinds of actions to get smoother with his decision-making. It'll definitely make for some ugly offense in the short term, but if he DOES start to figure it out, it would ultimately give our offense a whole other dimension come March (and it would be really terrific for his offense in a long-term NBA sense). This strikes me as the kind of thing that can only come with in-game reps, so I wouldn't be surprised to see K continue to push it, here, even at the cost of early success.

[Billy Dat]

We will miss Cassius. He’s our one wing who can do it all. Shoot, drive, defend, rebound. It’s an opportunity for the other guys to step up just like Baker did last night. Will Alex get a chance now to play himself back into the rotation after two 6 minute games?

Yeah, the first takeaway was concern over Cassius getting knocked out. I agree that if he's only gone a month and comes back to where he left off, then we may benefit in other guys getting more playing time and being able to contribute and provide options. Of course, if Cassius was going to continue on his consistency trajectory, then it's a real shame we lose him for any amount of time, let alone enough to have a major impact on how good he'd have gotten this season.

I think Coach K is trying to take the entitlement attitude away from our guys. He even told one of tonight's announcers that this team inherited the number one ranking and hadn't earned it. I don't think any of our guys will come out flat against Michigan State. Not if he wants to play meaningful minutes. GoDuke!

I think K sometimes says stuff like that to also remind fans of how hard it is to be a great team year after year and that it has to be earned each year. The less talent, the harder the group needs to work to be uphold expected standards. We are lucky that K still burns hot enough to try and forge those standards out of his raw material squad.

Freshman often play like you'd expect a freshman to play and that's what we're seeing with this group of kids. They have their ups and downs from game to game and at times even within the same game.

Yes, glad to see a couple of good games for Hurt and the emergence of Baker. Of course, it coincided with a weaker game from Wendell. Cassius was already a level above these guys from a consistency of production aspect...we need all 3 of them to be game-to-game productive.

I am admiring Baker's confidence and "free" play. He may be occasionally impulsive and hyper, but I prefer his mistakes of aggression to AOC's mistakes of timidity.

Hurt was great in the first half, but did kind of disappear. As defenses adjust to him, he has to keep pushing and stay aggressive.

Jordan had a Jordan game, we need some smaller speed to match-up and he made a bunch of plays and got Tre some rest. When we get any scoring from him, it's such a big lift.

Quiet game from Jack - another guy who I thought was on the rise and had 2 weak games in a row.

The glimmer of hope is that Tre channels his inner Stones Jr. and gets his head in the game.

Waiting for the day when Javin stops playing entitled - strong words I know, but I think fits how I seem him playing right now.

Yeah, I was very impressed with Moore when he was playing PG against Central Arkansas. But I haven’t seen that athletic, confident, skillful version of him since. Obviously, the potential is there, though.

I thought these were pretty hot takes as I think Tre's been pretty good, and sometimes great, all year. I don't see entitlement in Javin's play considering that he's never really had a title..he's always been a sub...if anything I think he's just been bad but not for lack of thinking he already earned something. I agree that Wendell was rough these past two games but I thought he was a stud in NY which was after the Central Arkansas game.

I think to get Wendell going and to make him effective while Cassius is out, Duke needs to accommodate him and run this set piece (the hall ball screen) for him more often. The great thing is that Joey's emergence dovetails well with this suggestion. You put Matthew, Joey, and Tre (who has improved his shooting) as the stationary shooters on the wing while Vernon comes up to set the ball screen for Wendell. I believe Wendell will produce 120 offensive ratings (personal and team) out of this setup.

Defenses have all been completely blitzing the high screens and horns actions when Tre has the ball. I think they are desperate to get it out of his hands. Maybe Wendell would benefit from the attention Tre is getting and get a little more breathing room up top if we ran more of these sets for him. It's putting a lot of trust in a guy who has been spastic but I agree that we need to try stuff because when they blitz Tre, the offense takes another 5-7 seconds to re-set and then we are rushing.

Speaking of Tre, the Jones v Jones PG duel in this game was a lot of fun to watch, but was getting sick of the announcer calling Winthrop's Jones, "the Agitant!" I also thought Winthrop's other primary ballhander, Chandler Vaudrin, was a nice tough player.

When we needed big buckets, Tre got the ball to Vernon and he went to work. We really need to work harder to get him touches where he can exploit his size and skill on the block because he is extremely effective down there and we go for long stretches without him being involved. That's on him as much as the team, do your homework early, Vern, get position and the team needs to have their head up.

As of right now, with Cassius out and a few guys rising and falling, I feel like we are back to just Tre and Vernon as the guys we can count on delivering every game. Will anyone else be able to be that guy every game, or will we literally be watching a seasons-long musical chairs depending on match-up and whose got the yams that night?

[Billy Dat]

One more thing, do we need to discuss this quote at all:

“Part of it, we had some other issues with our program,” Krzyzewski said, “with some health issues. I had a little health issue for the last game that I was not myself. I had some … anyway I’m good, but that day and that night, I was not good. So, part of that is we’re human beings. We’re not going to be perfect even though lot of people expect us to be.”

I guess we can only assume that coaches are going to get sick and such and not think it's something more than that, considering K's age and all. Part of me wished he hadn't said it because it also sounds like an excuse and we all know how that goes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgNnSqvvsWc&t=3m33s

[Steven43]

”I had a little health issue for the last game that I was not myself. I had some … anyway I’m good, but that day and that night, I was not good.”

He’s referring to the SFA game, right? Did anyone notice odd behavior from K during or after the game? Did he not seem like himself?

Of course UNC fans will say that he’s just trying to make excuses for a loss. They’re so predictable in their immature and obsessive hatred of K.

[kshepinthehouse]

He’s referring to the SFA game, right? Did anyone notice odd behavior from K during or after the game? Did he not seem like himself?

Of course UNC fans will say that he’s just trying to make excuses for a loss. They’re so predictable in their immature and obsessive hatred of K.

We would say the same thing if Roy said it...