Unbelievable - Spanish BBall Team

[wisteria]

I think it is really interesting that this issue is getting more play and attention abroad than it is in China.

As I said, the picture does not really appear offensive to a lot of us native Chinese, simply because a lot of us don't know it is supposed to be referring to us. A lot of Chinese internet posters saw the picture and read the story, and their first question would be, why? what does this mean?

I simply couldn't figure out why anyone would use this slanted-eye gesture. Do you guys in the west honestly think that Chinese, or Asian in general, have slanted eyes? I mean...just as a natural facial feature, do you guys really think Asians have slanted eyes? Just like African people are usually black?

For me, or for a lot of us, it just doesn't make sense. Lucy Liu, the American-Chinese actress, is considered to be very strange-looking in the eyes of Chinese. We simply cannot figure out why she is considered to be an Asian-looking actress. I mean, she looks so different from your average Chinese.

Until today. I finally realized that, perhaps, in the western eyes, Asian people all have the Lucy Liu's eyes. But it is actually her eyes that most Chinese find "different".

I am posting this, sincerely asking this question: do you guys really think slanted-eyes is a natural facial feature of Asians (or Chinese)? I just think it's very interesting that our views could be so different.

I grew up in China and for more than 20 years, I've never realized that slanted-eye is supposed to be our facial feature. I know we generally have black hair, straight hair, flatter noses, yellow skin, and black/brown eyes. But slanted-eyes? definitely not a very typical feature.

[darthur]

I truly don't understand the humor that was allegedly intended. It seems to me to be making fun of the difference between Asian and European features. If someone could explain the humor, perhaps we are overreacting.

Step back for a second, and forget your American background. Because symbols that have certain connotations in American society do not always have the same connotations abroad. A Spanish advertisement in Spain should be interpreted accordingly, and thus differently from an American advertisement. Ok, now:

I am pretty sure the photo was intended along the same lines as boys dressing up as men or women with fake beards or with fake breasts (a pillow under their shirt) - i.e. as silliness and nothing more. I do not think it should be taken as denigrating Chinese appearance any more than the boy costumes should be taken as denigrating the appearance of older men and women.

Now, a lot of Americans are very sensitive about racial differences in physical appearance. This is understandable - America, as the first major multicultural country in recent history, has been dealing with racism on a large scale for centuries. In other countries, this is just not true, and these topics are less sensitive. And this is not just because countries like Spain don't care if their small Asian population is offended. As I said earlier in this thread, slanty eyes are also not considered offensive by my generation in Toronto, and I'm including the 25% of my generation that are Asian when I say this.

Americans just need to understand that social norms can easily vary from one country to the next, and sometimes, the differences aren't a result of the other country being wrong. Sometimes, the norms just evolved differently there. In this case: we have a country that is not offended by references to slanty eyes. Unless you happen to know Chinese living in Spain are unhappy with this, it is presumptuous I think for Americans to call the attitude *wrong*. It is just different.

PS: I'm not saying racism does not exist in Spain, nor am I saying racism is all relative and can't be judged. I'm just saying that this particular ad has (imo) been blown out of proportion by the American media.

[darthur]

I simply couldn't figure out why anyone would use this slanted-eye gesture. Do you guys in the west honestly think that Chinese, or Asian in general, have slanted eyes? I mean...just as a natural facial feature, do you guys really think Asians have slanted eyes? Just like African people are usually black?

I believe it is more accurate to say that westerners think Asians have "squinty eyes" - i.e. eyes that are wider and less tall than western eyes.

[hc5duke]

Now, a lot of Americans are very sensitive about racial differences in physical appearance. This is understandable - America, as the first major multicultural country in recent history, has been dealing with racism on a large scale for centuries. In other countries, this is just not true, and these topics are less sensitive. And this is not just because countries like Spain don't care if their small Asian population is offended. As I said earlier in this thread, slanty eyes are also not considered offensive by my generation in Toronto, and I'm including the 25% of my generation that are Asian when I say this.

Just wanted some clarification - when you say "this is not true," you do mean that they are not dealing with the existing racism, not that there is less racism in those countries. Because I would argue that Spain (or China, France, Korea, etc.) in general is much more racist (or to put it another way, more insensitive/intolerant about other cultures) than the U.S..

One outcome from this is (I think this might have been mentioned in the current thread somewhere), this pretty much eliminates Madrid from the 2016 Olympics contenders list.

[miramar]

In an article on this controversy, the NYT notes that an Iranian swimmer called in sick for a swimming heat rather than share the pool with an Israeli competitor. Unbelievable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sp...hp&oref=slogin

[hc5duke]

In an article on this controversy, the NYT notes that an Iranian swimmer called in sick for a swimming heat rather than share the pool with an Israeli competitor. Unbelievable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/sp...hp&oref=slogin

not sure how this is worse...

[darthur]

Just wanted some clarification - when you say "this is not true," you do mean that they are not dealing with the existing racism, not that there is less racism in those countries. Because I would argue that Spain (or China, France, Korea, etc.) in general is much more racist (or to put it another way, more insensitive/intolerant about other cultures) than the U.S..

I mean that other countries have less of a *history* of dealing with racism, and so race relationships is less a part of the national consciousness - in most cases, because they have just never had powerful minorities. And yes, I think this does lead to more direct and outward racism than you see in the USA, largely because some people will equate racism with patriotism.

However, I think that outward racism is quite different from stuff like this ad, which IMO is just the product of normal people in a society that is less sensitive (or less over-sensitive, depending on your perspective). And as I said above, I think this insensitivity has more to do with innocence than with racism - these questions only become *really* offensive to people when they have a history of racial violence to look back on.

I think people here are equating this innocence with real racism. Spain as a whole may have both the innocence and the racism, thanks to its lack of minorities, but this does not extend to individual people. Single people can be innocent without being racist (just like a lot of Canada is from my last example). I think that's what's going on here with the Spanish national team, and why Americans, who cannot imagine being innocent when it comes to race, are so unsympathetic.

PS: You seem to be using insensitivity in the sense of selfish thoughtlessness. In America, I agree this is the only kind of racial insensitivity that is possible. I use it to mean, genuine innocence with regards to our (American) racial sensitivities. In the rest of the world, this is very possible, and I think it is a mistake to equate it with racism in any form.

[JG Nothing]

I have to say I find the strength of the backlash here a little surprising. Maybe it's because of my age (26) or my background (Toronto, which is 25% Asian, with no anti-Asian racism at all where I grew up), but I have almost never seen "slanty eyes" being used in any kind of derogatory way.

I tell you what, the next time you're in Toronto why don't you greet an Asian by pulling the skin at the corner of your eyes and saying "hey slanty eyes." You might want to throw in a few "ching chongs" while you're at it. It shouldn't be a big deal because, apparently, "slanty eyes" is not used in any kind of derogatory way in Toronto. Let me know if the person hits you or simply flips you off.

[hc5duke]

I mean that other countries have less of a *history* of dealing with racism, and so race relationships is less a part of the national consciousness - in most cases, because they have just never had powerful minorities. And yes, I think this does lead to more direct and outward racism than you see in the USA, largely because some people will equate racism with patriotism.

However, I think that outward racism is quite different from stuff like this ad, which IMO is just the product of normal people in a society that is less sensitive (or less over-sensitive, depending on your perspective). And as I said above, I think this insensitivity has more to do with innocence than with racism - these questions only become *really* offensive to people when they have a history of racial violence to look back on.

I think people here are equating this innocence with real racism. Spain as a whole may have both the innocence and the racism, thanks to its lack of minorities, but this does not extend to individual people. Single people can be innocent without being racist (just like a lot of Canada is from my last example). I think that's what's going on here with the Spanish national team, and why Americans, who cannot imagine being innocent when it comes to race, are so unsympathetic.

PS: You seem to be using insensitivity in the sense of selfish thoughtlessness. In America, I agree this is the only kind of racial insensitivity that is possible. I use it to mean, genuine innocence with regards to our (American) racial sensitivities. In the rest of the world, this is very possible, and I think it is a mistake to equate it with racism in any form.

I see what you're saying. Interesting thought: can we say this is like (making bad analogies is one of my lesser known hobbies) you made a joke about your friend's mom, only to find out she's dead? You didn't mean any harm, but your friend may still be offended by this. You're not a bad guy, you just didn't know this would offend someone. So you apologize and move on. I guess I can see the Spanish players honestly didn't think this would offend anyone.

[ice-9]

I think of what can be considered "racist" in two aspects: 1) the intention of the starting party, 2) and the interpretation of the receiving party.

In the case of the Spanish basketball team, did they intend to be racist to the Chinese? I can believe that no, generally, the team did not mean to be offensive. But is it received in an offensive way? I can only speak for myself (ethnic Chinese, Indonesian national)...but hell yeah, I found the photograph offensive.

When it comes right down to it, it is how the receiving party perceives the action that really matters. For example, in my time at Duke, I see a lot of my African American friends calling each other "nigger." I didn't think they meant to be racist to one another; if anything, the term was used in an affectionate way. Thankfully I had enough common sense not to join in. Even if I called my African American friends niggers in a friendly, affectionate manner, I doubt many would receive it that way. So I don't. And neither do you.

It is of course impossible to be inoffensive at all times to all people, but we're not talking about a casual slip-up here. We are talking about a national team representing its country pulling their eyes in a fashion that could very well be interpreted as offensive to its intended recipients. This is more than a mistake; this is flat out insensitivity that could be endemic of a bigger underlying problem.

[darthur]

Interesting thought: can we say this is like (making bad analogies is one of my lesser known hobbies) you made a joke about your friend's mom, only to find out she's dead?

I would go one step further, and say it's like making a joke about moms to your friend... only to find out the mom of someone else who overheard you is dead =).

Since this is a Spanish ad for Spanish people, I think the key is how the Spanish viewers (of all ethnicities) interpret it. If they believe it is really making fun of the Chinese, the ad was not so innocent, and it deserves criticism. If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

[darthur]

I just had an idea for explaining my views a little better.

People in this thread have been quick to point out that Americans would not be okay with a European team painting themselves black for an ad for an African Olympics. However, I believe that most Americans WOULD be okay with an African team painting themselves white for an ad for a European Olympics. Why is this? One big reason is that there is an old tradition of whites making fun of blacks using black facepaint, so we associate black facepaint as derogatory, but we have no such assocation for white facepaint.

This is all fair enough, but it is *specific to America*. Another country that has no history of using black facepaint for anything might not see black facepaint as any worse than white facepaint. If they ran an internal ad using this black facepaint, it would be a mistake for us to say it was endorsing racism just because *we* associate black facepaint with racism.

In the same way, I think it is a mistake for us to assume the Spanish national team is endorsing racism with this ad just because WE (who are not the intended audience) happen to associate the slanty eye gesture with racism.

Anyway, I hope that clears up my view. Racism is never okay, but it is always important to distinguish actual racism from miscommunication, and I suspect this is the latter, not the former.

[studdlee10]

I actually think this makes it worse....they were trying to make a hush hush racist joke and are only mad because they got caught.

I would go one step further, and say it's like making a joke about moms to your friend... only to find out the mom of someone else who overheard you is dead =).

Since this is a Spanish ad for Spanish people, I think the key is how the Spanish viewers (of all ethnicities) interpret it. If they believe it is really making fun of the Chinese, the ad was not so innocent, and it deserves criticism. If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

[darthur]

I actually think this makes it worse....they were trying to make a hush hush racist joke and are only mad because they got caught.

If this is what you think is happening, that's fine, but... you are quoting me, and this sure isn't what I'm describing.

[ice-9]

If Spanish viewers do not see the ad in that way, then this whole fiasco comes down to Americans misinterpreting the ad because they are attributing their own social values (slanty eyes is a racial insult, not just a physical trait) to another culture. Since the ad was never intended to be seen by Americans anyway, that would hardly be the Spanish team's fault.

darthur, to echo wisteria's question, do you really think slanty eyes is a Chinese feature? I mean, I know you live in Toronto and there are a lot of Chinese around you, are you telling me all those Chinese have slanty eyes? Are you saying it's OK to stereotype Chinese people as slanty eyed?

I'm surprised you think the whole slanty eye thing isn't considered racist in Toronto. Have you carried out JG Nothing's suggestion to greet Asians in your city with "Hey slanty eyes?" You posit a lot of interesting theories about how this whole thing is not racist, but I'd love to see you live out your statements. Please let us know how that goes. Just try it, OK? Next Chinese person you meet. Call him or her slanty eyes and report back on what happens.

Also, studlee10's point is the fact that the ad is intended for Spanish audiences and not American audiences does NOT make it OK that it was racially insensitive. Especially given this is the national team representing Spain in the Olympics, a fundamentally global event.

Personally, I don't think this whole fiasco is that big of a deal. The photograph was definitely offensive (to me), but as long as the participants can acknowledge how the photograph can be seen as offensive and are apologetic about it, there's not much left to it.

[studdlee10]

In the grand scheme of things this is definitely not a big deal. Was I offended? Definitely, but these things can and will happen so there is no use dwelling on it.

The people in China don't seem to be paying particular attention to this, so I'll move on...but I sure wouldn't mind seeing Dwight and Lebron throw down some big dunks on Gasol's head in a couple days.

darthur, to echo wisteria's question, do you really think slanty eyes is a Chinese feature? I mean, I know you live in Toronto and there are a lot of Chinese around you, are you telling me all those Chinese have slanty eyes? Are you saying it's OK to stereotype Chinese people as slanty eyed?

I'm surprised you think the whole slanty eye thing isn't considered racist in Toronto. Have you carried out JG Nothing's suggestion to greet Asians in your city with "Hey slanty eyes?" You posit a lot of interesting theories about how this whole thing is not racist, but I'd love to see you live out your statements. Please let us know how that goes. Just try it, OK? Next Chinese person you meet. Call him or her slanty eyes and report back on what happens.

Also, studlee10's point is the fact that the ad is intended for Spanish audiences and not American audiences does NOT make it OK that it was racially insensitive. Especially given this is the national team representing Spain in the Olympics, a fundamentally global event.

Personally, I don't think this whole fiasco is that big of a deal. The photograph was definitely offensive (to me), but as long as the participants can acknowledge how the photograph can be seen as offensive and are apologetic about it, there's not much left to it.

[studdlee10]

I'm not usually a huge Plaschke fan, but he sums it up much better than I ever could:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/olym...ke-points.html

It isn't the gesture in itself that is completely offensive. It is the continued half-assed apologies and insistence that they were doing no wrong. The Spanish are being awfully defensive...if no harm was meant..there really shouldn't be a need to for it...Suck it up, apologize across the board and this issue is done.

[darthur]

Well I have obviously irritated you jyuwono, and I'm sorry, but I will respond to your questions as best I can.

darthur, to echo wisteria's question, do you really think slanty eyes is a Chinese feature? I mean, I know you live in Toronto and there are a lot of Chinese around you, are you telling me all those Chinese have slanty eyes? Are you saying it's OK to stereotype Chinese people as slanty eyed?

Actually... sort of. I do think, on the whole, Chinese eyes look slightly different from American eyes. Why is this offensive? I understand the particular term "slanty eyes" is a derogatory term in the USA, which is not okay. However, "stereotyping" Chinese by saying their eyes, on the whole, are slightly different from western eyes is like stereotyping Africans by saying, on the whole, their skin is darker than western skin.

I'm surprised you think the whole slanty eye thing isn't considered racist in Toronto. Have you carried out JG Nothing's suggestion to greet Asians in your city with "Hey slanty eyes?" You posit a lot of interesting theories about how this whole thing is not racist, but I'd love to see you live out your statements. Please let us know how that goes. Just try it, OK? Next Chinese person you meet. Call him or her slanty eyes and report back on what happens.

You are fishing for a fight. I do not want to give you one - I'm sorry. It is also not a sensitive point in Toronto that women have breasts, but I wouldn't walk up to a woman and greet her with "hey, breasts" either.

Also, studlee10's point is the fact that the ad is intended for Spanish audiences and not American audiences does NOT make it OK that it was racially insensitive. Especially given this is the national team representing Spain in the Olympics, a fundamentally global event.

I understood studlee's point - he never understood mine though, as apparently you did not either. It is a massive oversimplification to just say the ad is "racially insensitive".

As I said, I think the problem is akin to Americans being offended by a Spanish ad because someone translated it incorrectly from Spanish to English, creating a derogatory joke in the English version that was not in the Spanish version. It seems to me American viewers have quite literally misunderstood the meaning here, because they happen to associate "slanty eyes" as being derogatory to Asians, whereas the Spanish view it as a perfectly non-derogatory symbol of China, similar to the dragon on the court. Think of "slanty eyes" as a Spanish word that Americans are mistranslating to add negative connotations that are not there in the original language. THAT is what I think is going on here.

[ice-9]

I'm irritated by your posts because the gist of them seem to be that there is little reason to be offended by the Spanish team photo. That notion irritates me because I feel quite justified in feeling offended. I am also irritated by your generalization of what Chinese in Toronto do or do not find offensive and your use of that generalization to support your point.

I may be missing out on your main point, but you clearly missed out on mine. Ultimately what matters most is NOT what is intended but how it is received.

Your answer to the question of whether you think Chinese eyes are slanted is the following:

Actually... sort of. I do think, on the whole, Chinese eyes look slightly different from American eyes. Why is this offensive? I understand the particular term "slanty eyes" is a derogatory term in the USA, which is not okay. However, "stereotyping" Chinese by saying their eyes, on the whole, are slightly different from western eyes is like stereotyping Africans by saying, on the whole, their skin is darker than western skin.

Sorry, but "different" or "slightly different" eyes does not equate to "slanty eyed." Your failure to acknowledge this is...puzzling.

It is also not a sensitive point in Toronto that women have breasts, but I wouldn't walk up to a woman and greet her with "hey, breasts" either.

Tell you what: At the next cocktail party, I will go up to a woman and say, "Women have breasts." In turn, at your next cocktail party, you go up to a Chinese and say, "Chinese people have slanty eyes."

Deal??

[hc5duke]

I'm irritated by your posts because the gist of them seem to be that there is little reason to be offended by the Spanish team photo. That notion irritates me because I feel quite justified in feeling offended.

I'm done being offended by the whole incident, but I won't be trying to convince you otherwise.

I am also irritated by your generalization of what Chinese in Toronto do or do not find offensive and your use of that generalization to support your point.

Ok, I do agree that darthur is probably wrong about the Chinese in Toronto not being offended by the "slanty-eye" gesture, but I think that has more to do with darthur not being a Chinese person in Toronto, than darthur trying to irritate anyone. To be fair, I'm not a Chinese person in Toronto either, so my assumption could be wrong too.

I may be missing out on your main point, but you clearly missed out on mine. Ultimately what matters most is NOT what is intended but how it is received.

This is where I think my analogy (improved upon by darthur) makes sense. Spain made a joke about China's mom. America and some other countries got offended because their mom is dead. Spain apologized. Let's move on.

Sorry, but "different" or "slightly different" eyes does not equate to "slanty eyed." Your failure to acknowledge this is...puzzling.

Aren't we just arguing semantics here? We've covered that Asian eyes tend to be wider (like African skin tends to be darker) than "western" eyes, and I have no idea where you're getting "slanty" from. To be fair, the original discussion was about the Spanish players making their eyes look "wider," which understandably can be offensive, but nobody on their team used the term "slanty". That's like if the Chinese team put on blackface without realizing it's considered offensive (I don't know about China, but that would be nothing new in Japan), we'd start arguing they were calling black players niggers.

Tell you what: At the next cocktail party, I will go up to a woman and say, "Women have breasts." In turn, at your next cocktail party, you go up to a Chinese and say, "Chinese people have slanty eyes."

I don't understand why darthur is on trial here... Was this really necessary? Come on...