Henry Coleman to Texas A&M

[Phredd3]

That is kind of proving my point. The teams in 1991-1993 are night and day compared to what Duke has turned into as a program since the one and done era has started and guys stayed longer then but now are referred to as The Brotherhood ...

I bet there’s literally zero one and done guys in Mr. Brill’s book. The heavy hitters and main players all likely spent more than 8 months on Duke’s campus and probably were more like brothers ...

Maybe so, but Zion certainly considers himself a member, and I'm not really sure why you think that's anything but great for Duke. Granted, you didn't state otherwise explicitly, but by extension, retiring the concept seems like a negative.

[1991 duke law]

Hmm, I’m cool with being on the other side of Kyrie Irving on just about any issue. I’m actually embarrassed he is associated with Duke. If he reads this , he might even have to take another week off for his oft-used “personal reasons”.

I laughed so hard when I read this that I scared my daughter in the other room.

[Chicago 1995]

That is kind of proving my point. The teams in 1991-1993 are night and day compared to what Duke has turned into as a program since the one and done era has started and guys stayed longer then but now are referred to as The Brotherhood ...

I bet there’s literally zero one and done guys in Mr. Brill’s book. The heavy hitters and main players all likely spent more than 8 months on Duke’s campus and probably were more like brothers ...

K's statement isn't "Four Years Together is a Lifetime" but "A Season is a Lifetime".

Season. 10 months.

[CameronDuke]

One person's cash grab is another person's beginning a life changing financial transition. It's not a small amount of money. For many of these kids it's generational. I know how hard I've had to work for what little money I have.

I have stated before, I have no problems with folks wanting money. I have a family to support myself so I get it. If you threw the kind of money in my face that NBA teams do to these kids when I was 18/19, my eyes would have been big as saucers. I’m just a common man from down in the holler myself so I’m proud of the very little bit of money I have been fortunate enough to earn thus far in my life. But let’s call it that and not The Brotherhood act which folks I have discussed this with in person have laughed at and poked fun at in conversations with me about Duke.

The fine folks at Duke won’t be reaching out to me for my opinions on their social media campaigns, and rightfully so. But something that comes to mind that is more accurate to me than The Brotherhood may mirror Strayer University’s (I think it’s them or ITT Tech) catch phrase “zero to associate’s degree in 12 months” ... amateur to professional basketball player in 8 months ...

[sagegrouse]

So we'll have to get the word out to many former players and coaches that this thing was just a gimmick?

I often see them use the term Brotherhood and talk about a special kinship. Seems plenty real.

I agree with you and can't see what all the fuss is about. Being a player on the Duke basketball program under Coach K is a special experience -- hoops, camaraderie, academics, trips, and what have you. And there are values and special Duke attributes attached to each element. The experience needed a name -- someone came up with "Brotherhood," and Duke basketball is selling the heck out of it to attract players to Duke and to keep players who played at Duke affiliated with the program. And to add to the "brand" of Duke basketball.

Glad we thought of it first.

[CameronDuke]

K's statement isn't "Four Years Together is a Lifetime" but "A Season is a Lifetime".

Season. 10 months.

And when did he make this comment? What teams was he referring to? Who played on those teams?

[Chicago 1995]

And when did he make this comment? What teams was he referring to? Who played on those teams?

Given that a Lifetime has definitive beginning and ending, it doesn't matter.

He didn't say, with all the work we put in last year, a season is a lifetime. He didn't say, I've built for three years for this season's lifetime.

I get that doesn't meet your preference for the way that you'd like Duke basketball to work, but it's what he's said. It's no different than him talking about the 1992, 2002, 2011 and 2016 teams as not defending anything, but winning something new on their own, as their own team.

Regardless, anger at a social marketing campaign and promoting the idea that a bond of "Brotherhood" can't be forged over a single 10 month season is a weird way to lament for the good old days.

[GGLC]

Put me in the "pro-Kyrie" camp. He says outlandish things and definitely strikes me as a psuedo-intellectual, but his social justice work speaks for itself, and despite the narrative from sports media, he seems very well liked by his teammates.

I agree with Mtn Devil and Channing. I'm a Kyrie fan.

[CameronDuke]

Given that a Lifetime has definitive beginning and ending, it doesn't matter.

He didn't say, with all the work we put in last year, a season is a lifetime. He didn't say, I've built for three years for this season's lifetime.

I get that doesn't meet your preference for the way that you'd like Duke basketball to work, but it's what he's said. It's no different than him talking about the 1992, 2002, 2011 and 2016 teams as not defending anything, but winning something new on their own, as their own team.

Regardless, anger at a social marketing campaign and promoting the idea that a bond of "Brotherhood" can't be forged over a single 10 month season is a weird way to lament for the good old days.

That’s fair, but all I’m really saying is the complexion of the teams he’s likely referring to (I’m assuming he made this comment well before the modern day one and done era) were drastically different than the rent a player model now. I remember teams I was on in high school for just one season (9th grade boy’s basketball, JV basketball as a sophomore) and I don’t really see how it was a Brotherhood. We had fun for a few months and they’re great guys, I enjoyed my time around them and treated them with respect as teammates, but did some corny brothers for life mantra result from our interactions? Nope.

I do have some close friends that I consider like brothers that I’ve known for 25+ years (almost a lifetime). I have no idea the day to day schedule of the guys at Duke who are teammates and likely could be selling short the experiences they go through together in often times quick pit stops at Duke from August ish to the following June for the NBA Draft (roughly). I could be wrong! My wife will tell you that happens way too often for me.

I am glad Zion is a Duke Basketball “alum” (let’s not get into the debate on if one should be considered an alum of a school without a degree from there ) ... heck I am glad everyone that comes to Duke makes that decision. I simply find The Brotherhood tacky. I’m not trying to sound stuffy.

But I do know I will always pull for the team and school because I do know they do 99.9% or the overwhelming majority of everything else with class and the right way (although my interest in the program and ability to stay up late for the 9 pm tips have dwindled as I age). Go Duke.

[brlftz]

I have no problem buying into the idea of a brotherhood being established during the single year of college that so many of our players experience. It's an intense year, and it's an experience shared by an elite few. Who are we to say that they don't establish a lifelong connection from it? Heck, people talk about Project Wild that way and it's only a week long.

Quoting myself to emphasize that I think it's baloney to say that you can't generate a lifelong attachment over the course of a season playing at Duke. It's an intense, immersive experience, especially so if it is your only year in college. Who the heck appoints themselves the arbiter of whether our guys get to claim that it's real to them?!?

[CameronDuke]

Maybe so, but Zion certainly considers himself a member, and I'm not really sure why you think that's anything but great for Duke. Granted, you didn't state otherwise explicitly, but by extension, retiring the concept seems like a negative.

Not calling for retirement of the concept, but a more accurate depiction through rebranding. I’m obviously happy Zion came to Duke for several months and considers himself a member of the community.

If something sells but doesn’t necessarily fit what is being described, that isn’t the best look to me ...

If it sells though, we all know cash is king to some ...

[RepoMan]

Look, we get that you don't like the way we've gone about recruiting, and that's fine. But the data suggest pretty strongly that having the best talent leads to better results. It doesn't always lead to titles, and we can debate whether it is preferable to field a less consistently awesome team but a more college-like team. But saying that only 20% of the Final Four teams had one-and-done stars and only 2 of 15 title teams had one-and-done stars is not a reasonable way of arguing in favor of going away from one-and-dones.

Agree 100%. I mean, every college basketball coach is trying to win as many games as possible, and every college basketball coach is trying to recruit the best talent possible. Those two things are directly connected.

Might those same coaches prefer to balance their rosters with experience? Sure, but not at the expense of declining to try to recruit the best talent possible. I guess you could argue that they all are wrong, but . . .

[brlftz]

I’m obviously happy Zion came to Duke for several months and considers himself a member of the community

I'm happy he's a part of the community, whether or not everyone approves of how he feels about the experience.

[CameronDuke]

I'm happy he's a part of the community, whether or not everyone approves of how he feels about the experience.

Right on ...

Just wish he wasn’t so darn strong or his Nikes weren’t so darn weak and he wouldn’t have blown out his sole like an 18 wheeler rumblin’ down 95 South at 80 mph through eastern North Carolina ...

[Phredd3]

Not calling for retirement of the concept, but a more accurate depiction through rebranding. I’m obviously happy Zion came to Duke for several months and considers himself a member of the community.

If something sells but doesn’t necessarily fit what is being described, that isn’t the best look to me ...

If it sells though, we all know cash is king to some ...

You can think it is all about cash, if you want to. I get the impression that Zion doesn't feel that way, but then, I've never had the opportunity to actually pose that question to him. Come to think of it, if I get the opportunity to pose any question at all, I doubt I would pose that one. But meanwhile, the evidence suggests to me that the concept is meaningful in a way that cash is not. I'm sure you and your buds will continue to laugh at it, and that's fine.

[BobBender]

I agree with Mtn Devil and Channing. I'm a Kyrie fan.

Well, I’m relieved you inserted “ pseudo” before “intellectual”, for blatantly obvious reasons. I’d write more about this, but i have to retrieve my golf ball before it falls off the edge of the Earth.

pS... THIS WAS MEANT AS A REPLY TO MTN. DEVIL

[CameronDuke]

You can think it is all about cash, if you want to. I get the impression that Zion doesn't feel that way, but then, I've never had the opportunity to actually pose that question to him. Come to think of it, if I get the opportunity to pose any question at all, I doubt I would pose that one. But meanwhile, the evidence suggests to me that the concept is meaningful in a way that cash is not. I'm sure you and your buds will continue to laugh at it, and that's fine.

What do you think it is about then? I’m curious what you would you ask Zion.

I have seen several graphics Duke’s social media department produced in recent years that aggregates opening day salaries/contracts of Duke “alum” in the NBA and how that value relates to other schools. That is pretty clear to me that a big part of The Brotherhood is about cash. You are welcome to interpret how you wish and sounds like we are drawing different conclusions.

I haven’t really laughed at it in quite some time, although I did. I find it inaccurate and just downright phony now.

[tommy]

This is some great analysis. Thanks for sharing. I expect those turnover numbers will be record highs due to the Covid season and lots of kids entering the portal before knowing it would be a permanent option. But no doubt the turnover will remain higher in this range with a lot of dissatisfied kids changing schools after their freshman years - but never be as high as among recruits 1-30.

Actually, the kids ranked 1-30 are less likely to transfer than the kids rated 30-60. Why? Because so many more of them just go pro, so there is no year 2.

Of the top 30 in the RSCI from 2020, three didn't play in college at all, so 27 players is the pool. 16 of them have already declared for the draft. That's 59%. "Only" 6 have entered the transfer portal, so that's 22%, which is less than the percentage of transfers from the group ranked 30-60. Only five appear to be returning to school of the 1-30 group, and a few of those may still go.

Combining these categories, of the 27 top 30-ranked recruits from last year who attended college, at most five will be back at the same school for a sophomore year. 5 of 27 is 18.5%. And that could still fall lower. Two of the five are Jeremy Roach and Mark Williams. The fact that we appear to be getting two of our four top-30 guys back for a second year is way better than average. But still, if you are recruiting those high level guys, don't expect more than a year out of them. Just don't.

One other note: not surprisingly really, of the six top-30 guys who are transferring, four of them were rated 27 through 30, that is, the four lowest rated of this group. On the other hand, 11 of the top 12 who played college last year have already declared for the draft, with Texas's Greg Brown still mulling his decision. If he goes pro, then the highest rated returnee would be. . . wait for it . . . Caleb Love of UNC.

[Phredd3]

What do you think it is about then? I’m curious what you would you ask Zion.

An actual sense of belonging.

I don't know what I would ask Zion, but probably not anything relevant to the context of this thread. I'm unlikely to ever have the opportunity, so if that chance comes to me, I'll wing it.

[brlftz]

You can think it is all about cash, if you want to. I get the impression that Zion doesn't feel that way, but then, I've never had the opportunity to actually pose that question to him. Come to think of it, if I get the opportunity to pose any question at all, I doubt I would pose that one. But meanwhile, the evidence suggests to me that the concept is meaningful in a way that cash is not. I'm sure you and your buds will continue to laugh at it, and that's fine.

You've got to understand, these guys are all bad because they want to make a living and if they really cared about Duke they would not do that, and nothing lasting ever takes less than four years to build. No one ever gets engaged after dating for a year, or reunites with Army buddies from the war. That's why your fourth birthday is so important, it's when your parents start to love you.