MBB: Duke 87, Wake Forest 65 Post-Game Thread

[Jeffrey]

Yes, but Maye was also named first-team All-ACC (and comfortably so). White wouldn't need to put up numbers quite THAT good to make an All-ACC team. Last year, for example, the 3rd team included Ty Jerome (10.3 pts, 3.9 assists) and Omer Yurtseven (13.5 pts, 6.7 rebounds).

Again, I also definitely don't think White will get there. But I also don't it's completely outlandish depending upon who plays for us next year. If he averages 11 and 7 and Duke wins the ACC? Yeah, I could see him sneaking in there. And I don't know that 11 and 7 is totally unreasonable.

IMO, Jack should be in the running this year for ACC MIP and SMOTY.

[flyingdutchdevil]

IMO, Jack should be in the running this year for ACC MIP and SMOTY.

Sexy Man of the Year? My wife would think so.

[Jeffrey]

Sexy Man of the Year? My wife would think so.

Well, with all due respect, that sounds like a personal problem.

[mike88]

Tre seems destimed for DPOY in the ACC (if not the NCAA) but it would be a travesty if Jack White did not get votes for the ACC All-Defensive team.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Tre seems destimed for DPOY in the ACC (if not the NCAA) but it would be a travesty if Jack White did not get votes for the ACC All-Defensive team.

The one hit against Jack's D is he often gets blown by by quick 3s and even 4s. In the whole scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal given Javin/Zion/Bolden in the back line, but it's still a defensive breakdown.

[Kedsy]

I thought that Quinn Cook broke Wojo's record in 2015?

Quinn set the Duke record for career a/to ratio. The only individual season he had a better than 3:1 ratio was his freshman season when his a/to was 3.5:1 but he didn't play enough to count.

I think that's mostly due to this year's offensive talent. Other than Bagley, IMO, there was not much offensive talent last year.

Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

[JayZee]

Quinn set the Duke record for career a/to ratio. The only individual season he had a better than 3:1 ratio was his freshman season when his a/to was 3.5:1 but he didn't play enough to count.



Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

Zion who???? Look at Jack's numbers. He should start over Zion, not Cam

I know it's early, but those are ridiculous numbers, especially Zion with his usage rates. Bagley was such an incredible college offensive player and yet, seems so ho hum relative to what Zion is doing. And that'd just offense. Zion's D and chemistry contributions are also spectacular.

[Jeffrey]

Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

IMO, there's a lot more to measuring offensive talent than an oRating. You're never going to convince me that Jack White (with the highest oRating) has the most offensive talent on this year's team. The oRatings show Jack rated 30 points higher than RJ. I strongly believe RJ has more offensive talent than Jack.

[CDu]

Quinn set the Duke record for career a/to ratio. The only individual season he had a better than 3:1 ratio was his freshman season when his a/to was 3.5:1 but he didn't play enough to count.



Putting aside that according to Pomeroy, Duke had the 3rd best offense in the country last season, I'm flabbergasted that you don't think we had "much offensive talent."

oRating (1st 14 games of 2018-19)
Jack White: 143.8
Zion Williamson: 135.8
Tre Jones: 127.7
RJ Barrett: 113.9
Cam Reddish: 95.5
Alex O'Connell: 112.5

(I left out Marques and Javin both years, because their usage was/is low and I don't imagine you think their play would have any effect on Alex's)

oRating (full season 2017-18)
Marvin Bagley: 127.7
Wendell Carter: 125.3
Gary Trent: 124.4
Grayson Allen: 123.3
Trevon Duval: 104.3
Alex O'Connell: 124.3

We had just as many potent offensive weapons last season as this season. Alex just isn't playing as well this year.

To be fair, I don't think ORtg is a great tool for assessing potency of an offensive weapon. For example, Jack White is not a better offensive player than Williamson or Barrett (much like Tyler Thornton wasn't a better offensive player than those guys). ORtg tends to favor guys who don't have high usage and shoot primarily only in wide-open circumstances (or only at the rim).

That said, I think I would perhaps word Jeffrey's statement differently. Last year's team was not high on shot creators. Bagley could get his, as could Allen and Duval. But Trent was more assist-dependent, and to a lesser degree so was Carter. O'Connell was a wild card on that team and played sparingly anyway. Whereas this year's team has four guys who are quite capable of creating their own shot. Again, O'Connell is a wild card on this team and plays sparingly (though a bit more than he did last year, which is the reason his ORtg is lower this year).

Last year's team also had the problem that their shot creators weren't well paired with each other. Bagley's strengths too overlapped with Carter's, rendering one of them somewhat neutered. Similarly, Duval's strengths really relied on being ball-dominant and driving, and we didn't have a good perimeter-shooting group around him. Which somewhat neutered his offensive value. This year's team - so far at least - has better-fitting pieces. In large part because Jones is better than Duval and all three of the other shot creators are comfortable working from the perimeter in.

[Kedsy]

I strongly believe RJ has more offensive talent than Jack.

I agree. But I strongly do NOT agree that "there was not much offensive talent" on a team with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval (as well as O'Connell).

[JayZee]

I agree. But I strongly do NOT agree that "there was not much offensive talent" on a team with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval (as well as O'Connell).

Lots of talent, not the same blend of talent or cohesiveness. The raw offensive talent (and an ok zone D) got them 1 shot away from the Final Four. Not too shabby.

[Jeffrey]

I agree. But I strongly do NOT agree that "there was not much offensive talent" on a team with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Allen, and Duval (as well as O'Connell).

Maybe, you should have quoted my entire statement, "Other than Bagley, IMO, there was not much offensive talent last year." That's rather important, since I think Bagley may be the most offensively talented player K has coached at Duke. If Bagley was not on last year's team, then I think last year's team would not have ranked in the top 20 offenses.

However, upon reflection, I agree, my statement was too strong.

[Jeffrey]

I think I would perhaps word Jeffrey's statement differently.

I think I would too.

[Jeffrey]

In large part because Jones is better than Duval...

IMO, pick your Jones, either is better. I'll pick the current version.

[Kedsy]

To be fair, I don't think ORtg is a great tool for assessing potency of an offensive weapon. For example, Jack White is not a better offensive player than Williamson or Barrett (much like Tyler Thornton wasn't a better offensive player than those guys). ORtg tends to favor guys who don't have high usage and shoot primarily only in wide-open circumstances (or only at the rim).

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have included Jack in the previous table since his usage is so low. But that just reinforces the point that last year's team, having had five guys with a usage rate of 19.5% or higher, four of whom had oRatings above 120, had as much or more offensive firepower as this year's team (only three guys with a usage rate of 19.5% or higher, just one of whom has an oRating above 120).

[BandAlum83]

Zion was only credited with one block in his impressive stat line last night. But if you watch the highlight video on the front page, three blocks are included.

The first at 38 seconds likely and reasonably was credited to DeLaurier, but Zion seemed to have a piece of it too.
The second was at 1:46.
The third at 3:13 was the most impressive. As Zion just manages to get his fingers on the ball at a height where most would need a ladder, I am guessing the box score missed this one.

Isn't the third one the one that was (incorrectly) ruled goal tending?

[Steven43]

No one is a bigger fan of Jack than me around here, but there's a difference between being a GREAT role player and All-ACC, which is usually reserved for players who score much more and carry a bigger offensive load. I can see him improving some offensively as a senior, but he's pretty much going to still be a spot-up shooter next season. Especially if he plays the majority of his minutes at the 3.

The ACC has three All-ACC teams, right? I see no reason that Jack White cannot make at least the All-ACC third team next season. I think he absolutely has the overall talent, the skills, the desire, and the wherewithal to be that good next season if given the opportunity. Heck, If he shot the ball anywhere close to as much as RJ he would be scoring 20+ points a game THIS season, and with better efficiency.

I understand your point about White perhaps not getting the opportunity and the necessary minutes that would allow him to achieve the kind of scoring numbers that would enable him to make an All-ACC team next season. However, If given the opportunity I would bet that he could definitely do it.

[Troublemaker]

The ACC has three All-ACC teams, right? I see no reason that Jack White cannot make at least the All-ACC third team next season. I think he absolutely has the overall talent, the skills, the desire, and the wherewithal to be that good next season if given the opportunity. Heck, If he shot the ball anywhere close to as much as RJ he would be scoring 20+ points a game THIS season, and with better efficiency.

No, because Jack would have more turnovers than RJ trying to create for himself. The reason Jack is efficient is because he only takes open threes and doesn't do anything else. Which I love -- that's exactly what we need to complement the stars! But Jack's actually a very limited offensive player, and you're underestimating the massive efficiency dropoff that occurs when you go from only taking open threes to creating shots for yourself and teammates.

I'm completely serious, btw. If Jack tried to be RJ, he'd be sub-100 in efficiency.

[Steven43]

No, because Jack would have more turnovers than RJ trying to create for himself. The reason Jack is efficient is because he only takes open threes and doesn't do anything else.

Well, maybe he would have more turnovers than RJ, but RJ has quite a few turnovers himself. And Jack does score at least some on the inside, (mainly through dunks).

As to the comment about taking only open threes, the same could be said about Cam. And Jack is better at it.

[Troublemaker]

Well, maybe he would have more turnovers than RJ, but RJ has quite a few turnovers himself. And Jack does score at least some on the inside, (mainly through dunks).

As to the comment about taking only open threes, the same could be said about Cam. And Jack is better at it.

lol, Jack can't dribble. I mean, he probably does it better than posters on DBR, but if he tried to create like RJ, he'd be a turnover machine. (And, incidentally, RJ's turnover rate and A:TO ratio are pretty good for the role he's playing.)

Look, there's a limit to the usefulness of efficiency stats, and there's even misuse / misunderstanding of them. If you honestly think that Jack playing RJ's role would be more efficient than RJ, I don't know what to say.