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  1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I think Scheyer was more the exception than the rule though. This hasn't worked out great most of the time. Grayson Allen, Austin Rivers, Quinn Cook, Frank Jackson, Derryck Thornton, Nolan Smith, Eliot Williams, and Greg Paulus are all the point guards we've had since the 2002 team who were the starting point guard at some point for a Duke team that didn't get to the final four. The only other exception was the Dockery/Paulus PG committee on the 2006 team that made it to the final four, with seniors Redick and Williams (we'll never have 2 seniors that good ever again), and freshman star Luol Deng.I would put Allen, Rivers, Cook, Jackson, Smith, and Williams in the "combo guard" category. Thornton was too inexperienced (and not that good) and Paulus was too much of a liability on D.

    So really, Scheyer is the only guy who was able to do it successfully. When we've had a true point guard (J-Will, Duhon, Jones) it's usually worked out better.
    And that exception is a mythical hybrid of the 2004 FF team that included Luol in his lone season in a Duke uniform and fell to UConn, and the 2006 team headlined by Redick and Williams in their senior campaign that included a freshman Greg Paulus and lost to LSU in the sweet sixteen, so it's probably not the best point of comparison with our point guard play in any single season.
    Last edited by IrishDevil; 01-08-2019 at 02:09 PM. Reason: I see Kedsy got there first, apologies for the repeat point

  2. #2002
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I think Scheyer was more the exception than the rule though. This hasn't worked out great most of the time. Grayson Allen, Austin Rivers, Quinn Cook, Frank Jackson, Derryck Thornton, Nolan Smith, Eliot Williams, and Greg Paulus are all the point guards we've had since the 2002 team who were the starting point guard at some point for a Duke team that didn't get to the final four. The only other exception was the Dockery/Paulus PG committee on the 2006 team that made it to the final four, with seniors Redick and Williams (we'll never have 2 seniors that good ever again), and freshman star Luol Deng.

    I would put Allen, Rivers, Cook, Jackson, Smith, and Williams in the "combo guard" category. Thornton was too inexperienced (and not that good) and Paulus was too much of a liability on D.

    So really, Scheyer is the only guy who was able to do it successfully. When we've had a true point guard (J-Will, Duhon, Jones) it's usually worked out better.
    It kind of depends on your definition of successfully. When Allen, Rivers, Cook, Jackson, Smith and Williams have been lead guards, Duke has tended to win 25+ games, usually been ranked among the top 10 teams in the country, been on a top 10 offense, made the NCAA tournament and been a final four contender. I think they have been able to play lead guard rather successfully, even though they didn’t win the NCAAT.

  3. #2003
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    Hopefully Stewart doesn't join Bryan Antoine and Josiah James on the Duke Crystal Ball team.
    Well, right now the CB says Duke is at just 28% and pretty much all of our picks are by guys who made their pick about a year ago. Michigan St leads at 44% and the only pick made in the past couple weeks is a Syracuse guy who says Stewart will go to UDub (Washington).
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  4. #2004
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    That’s just crazy talk. There is definitely a way that junior PG JGold plays significant minutes if he is the only PG on the roster next year.
    The fact that Jordan takes the ball upcourt when he's in the game and often initiates the first pass in the halfcourt doesn't necessarily make him a "true PG." He seems to be a good defender, and maybe he could be a true point if he played Eastern Kentucky's schedule, but at the ACC level he just doesn't appear to have the ability to make plays or make his teammates better.

    Several people have rightfully pointed out that Derryck Thornton didn't make an acceptable point guard during his one season at Duke. His assist% was 16.7%, low for a PG, and his turnover% was 17.8%. His PER was a poor 9.4 and his eFG% was a mediocre 44.6%.

    Well, Jordan Goldwire's career assist% is 16.6% and his turnover% is 17.7%, almost identical to Derryck Thornton. The difference is Jordan's career PER is 6.5 (3.3 this season) and his career eFG% is an abysmal 33.0% (21.1% this season). And this is playing almost all of his minutes in blowouts against our worst opponents.

    I guess it's possible that Jordan takes a big jump between his sophomore and junior seasons, but so far he has shown no ability to be the lead guard on an ACC team, and certainly not on a national contender. Unless he undergoes a remarkable transformation, he won't play significant minutes next season whether you call him the only point guard or not.

  5. #2005
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Well, right now the CB says Duke is at just 28% and pretty much all of our picks are by guys who made their pick about a year ago. Michigan St leads at 44% and the only pick made in the past couple weeks is a Syracuse guy who says Stewart will go to UDub (Washington).
    The definition of “nobody knows”.

  6. #2006
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    The 2006 team did not make the Final Four. Also, Luol Deng's only season at Duke was 2003-04 (when Redick and Williams were sophomores and Chris Duhon was the PG).
    Wow, my memory is fading. But I guess that just proves my point even further. Almost every Duke team that has made it to a final four has featured a "true" point guard.

    That 2011 team should have made it. At full health, that team should have been one of the top 2 or 3 Duke teams ever. If only Kyrie's toe had survived the whole year.

  7. #2007
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Moreover, Mike Dunleavy (and Boozer and JWill) stayed three years and alter graduated. We just want ONE of our stars to stay TWO years.

    Kindly,
    Sage
    'Always worth a repeat whenever Dunleavy Jr.'s name comes up: Kenny Smith a few years ago on TNT, "Six-foot nine! How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that's six-foot nine. How tall is he? Five-eleven?"'
    I decided to look it up. Dunleavy (Sr.) was listed at 6 ft 3 in.

  8. #2008
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Atlanta
    Quote Originally Posted by BLPOG View Post
    I decided to look it up. Dunleavy (Sr.) was listed at 6 ft 3 in.
    With or without blocks?

    Sorry, someone had to ask.

  9. #2009
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Nope... I was referencing something a fair number of us have heard about (I think) regarding 2019 recruiting that has not happened yet. I was led to believe it was a week or two away. Perhaps the timeline has moved or perhaps the player in question has had second thoughts or perhaps it will happen within days. Sorry, I wish I knew more.
    Is this a reclassification?

  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    The fact that Jordan takes the ball upcourt when he's in the game and often initiates the first pass in the halfcourt doesn't necessarily make him a "true PG." He seems to be a good defender, and maybe he could be a true point if he played Eastern Kentucky's schedule, but at the ACC level he just doesn't appear to have the ability to make plays or make his teammates better.

    I guess it's possible that Jordan takes a big jump between his sophomore and junior seasons, but so far he has shown no ability to be the lead guard on an ACC team, and certainly not on a national contender. Unless he undergoes a remarkable transformation, he won't play significant minutes next season whether you call him the only point guard or not.
    Absolutely spot on, unfortunately. Goldwire will be a career backup at Duke. If he isn’t, we are in trouble.

  11. #2011
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by BLPOG View Post
    I decided to look it up. Dunleavy (Sr.) was listed at 6 ft 3 in.
    Yeah. You wonder how short Kenny Smith's kids turned out to be for him to express his views so strongly -- it really was funny. Here's the answer: K.J. Smith, Kenny's son, is a walk-on at Carolina. He's listed as 6-2, slightly shorter thna his Dad. Just think -- if had been 6-9 -- it would be a different story. The other son of Kenny is only 10 YO.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  12. #2012
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Yeah. You wonder how short Kenny Smith's kids turned out to be for him to express his views so strongly -- it really was funny. Here's the answer: K.J. Smith, Kenny's son, is a walk-on at Carolina. He's listed as 6-2, slightly shorter thna his Dad. Just think -- if had been 6-9 -- it would be a different story. The other son of Kenny is only 10 YO.
    Imagine if Chris Collins were as tall as his father. Or Nolan Smith.

  13. #2013
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Imagine if Chris Collins were as tall as his father. Or Nolan Smith.
    Wait, Chris Collins was as tall as Nolan Smith.

  14. #2014
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Imagine if Chris Collins were as tall as his father. Or Nolan Smith.
    I think someone (I believe Grant Hill) jokingly told Chris Collins that it was sad that his dad could dunk but he couldn’t.

  15. #2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    The fact that Jordan takes the ball upcourt when he's in the game and often initiates the first pass in the halfcourt doesn't necessarily make him a "true PG." He seems to be a good defender, and maybe he could be a true point if he played Eastern Kentucky's schedule, but at the ACC level he just doesn't appear to have the ability to make plays or make his teammates better.

    Several people have rightfully pointed out that Derryck Thornton didn't make an acceptable point guard during his one season at Duke. His assist% was 16.7%, low for a PG, and his turnover% was 17.8%. His PER was a poor 9.4 and his eFG% was a mediocre 44.6%.

    Well, Jordan Goldwire's career assist% is 16.6% and his turnover% is 17.7%, almost identical to Derryck Thornton. The difference is Jordan's career PER is 6.5 (3.3 this season) and his career eFG% is an abysmal 33.0% (21.1% this season). And this is playing almost all of his minutes in blowouts against our worst opponents.

    I guess it's possible that Jordan takes a big jump between his sophomore and junior seasons, but so far he has shown no ability to be the lead guard on an ACC team, and certainly not on a national contender. Unless he undergoes a remarkable transformation, he won't play significant minutes next season whether you call him the only point guard or not.
    I think we all agree that having Jordan as the starting PG next year is not ideal. But here’s the thing - Tre is not coming back so is a combo guard ranked 36th in his class a way better option? We really don’t have a good comparison to support that he will. Joey Baker was ranked 33rd and he’s red shirting. Frank Jackson was ranked 13th overall and the 4th ranked PG in his class. Senior Matt Jones and Junior Grayson played PG ahead of him on a team that needed a PG. Nolan was ranked 22nd and was not able to handle PG responsibilities as a freshman or sophomore. For comparison, Grayson(26th) and Gbinije(28th) played PG in the ACC but not until their Junior year. Matt Jones (38th) and Jon (42) also played PG but not as underclassmen. I think it would have been a disaster if GA, Silent G or Matt were Duke’s starting PG as a freshman. Jon was always a pretty heady player so he might have been less of a disaster but still not good as a freshman PG. EWill (77) defended PGs but did not initiate the offense as a freshman.

    But JGold will have 2-years of knowledge, experience and pretty good coaching. He does regularly get non-garbage PT in short spurts when Tre is out and he has been steady. So if Ellis is a disaster, JGold will be ready. Even If Ellis is more ready than his predecessors m, I still expect JGold to play more than he did as a sophomore behind Tre.

  16. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillinDuke View Post
    I mean, no I don't think this is essentially happening in any way. Tre Jones is a consummate true PG. Other than fast breaks and infrequent one-off plays, Tre Jones is initiating everything. Is he not? I'm not sure I've seen a single play where Zion brings the ball up the floor and initiates the offense.

    - Chillin
    This has just happened on consecutive plays in the 2nd half of the Wake game. Barrett and then Reddish ran the offense. But this is a recruiting thread and not worth arguing. When I think about Moore being a playmaker for the team, it's really about sharing the ballhandling responsibilities with Ellis or Goldwire or (hopefully) Jones.

  17. #2017
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    I think someone (I believe Grant Hill) jokingly told Chris Collins that it was sad that his dad could dunk but he couldn’t.
    Ouch. A joke that hurts.

  18. #2018
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    This has just happened on consecutive plays in the 2nd half of the Wake game. Barrett and then Reddish ran the offense. But this is a recruiting thread and not worth arguing. When I think about Moore being a playmaker for the team, it's really about sharing the ballhandling responsibilities with Ellis or Goldwire or (hopefully) Jones.
    Zion, Cam and RJ combined for another 6 TOs tonight. Tre handled the ball more than all three combined and had 7 assists and only 1 turnover. Tre is a great PG and Duke is way better on offense because of him and his defense is phenomenal. K and Zion both said Tre is the key. I would love to see last years team with Tre instead of Duval. Kansas loses by 10 against that team.

  19. #2019
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    Zion, Cam and RJ combined for another 6 TOs tonight. Tre handled the ball more than all three combined and had 7 assists and only 1 turnover. Tre is a great PG and Duke is way better on offense because of him and his defense is phenomenal. K and Zion both said Tre is the key. I would love to see last years team with Tre instead of Duval. Kansas loses by 10 against that team.
    I thought they had a lot more than 6 TO's Cam had 2 right away and at least one more and I think it was 2. The others also turned the ball over multiple times. Tre is the player who seldom turns the ball over and he does handle it the most.

  20. #2020
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    Zion, Cam and RJ combined for another 6 TOs tonight. Tre handled the ball more than all three combined and had 7 assists and only 1 turnover. Tre is a great PG and Duke is way better on offense because of him and his defense is phenomenal. K and Zion both said Tre is the key. I would love to see last years team with Tre instead of Duval. Kansas loses by 10 against that team.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    I thought they had a lot more than 6 TO's Cam had 2 right away and at least one more and I think it was 2. The others also turned the ball over multiple times. Tre is the player who seldom turns the ball over and he does handle it the most.
    Espn box score has them with 4 TO each.
    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

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