Game of Thrones 2019

[Nick]

I think there's lots of room in between. The most likely example is probably Dany winning in a sort of ruthless way (killing Jon Snow in the last episode) and leaving it up to the audience whether that counts as a "good" ending or not.

My personal pet conspiracy theory is that the good guys win but Sam somehow learns that by killing the Night King they've been tricked by the Lord of Light into unleashing a perpetual heat-wave summer on Westeros. I know that won't happen, I just wanted something surprising about the mythology...

At this point my best guess is that Jon, Dany, and Cersei all die and Sansa takes over.

[El_Diablo]

The producers ought to be ashamed for being so lazy and careless about the conclusion of this series. They’ve clearly already moved on to the spinoffs, which I will now be far less inclined to watch.

The good news is that the showrunners (Benioff & Weiss) are not involved in the spinoff. But you probably don't want to know what they have been given to work on next (hint: it's the next three entries in a series set in a galaxy far, far away).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The good news is that the showrunners (Benioff & Weiss) are not involved in the spinoff. But you probably don't want to know what they have been given to work on next (hint: it's the next three entries in a series set in a galaxy far, far away).

I don't understand all the hate they are getting. Yeah, this season is uneven, but I think two years of build up from the show, and a few decades of build up for book fans meant they were destined to end up disappointing some folks. They have given us six (or seven) seasons of really good television. They still have two more chances to redeem this season. I would have no problem with them taking over my next favorite franchise.

Not a lot of shows end on a high note with critical acclaim. The Americans would be a recent counter-example, but there aren't many others.

[thedukelamere]

I don't understand all the hate they are getting. Yeah, this season is uneven, but I think two years of build up from the show, and a few decades of build up for book fans meant they were destined to end up disappointing some folks. They have given us six (or seven) seasons of really good television. They still have two more chances to redeem this season. I would have no problem with them taking over my next favorite franchise.

Not a lot of shows end on a high note with critical acclaim. The Americans would be a recent counter-example, but there aren't many others.

In my opinion, a lot of the disappointment lies in the fact that they announced a few years ago that they knew what the ending was going to entail and that they knew exactly how many episodes it was going to take to get there... Many shows fizzle out or end with a lack of critical acclaim because 1) they caught lightning in a bottle 2) the network tried to squeeze as much money from the golden goose as possible and 3) ultimately had no idea where their show was going to end until it was there. The Walking Dead and Dexter are two of my favorite early season phenoms that couldn't maintain the quality and frankly embarrassed themselves, but I really thought B&W had the writers and network in place to wrap things up closer to Breaking Bad and The Americans prestige-levels. I understand that losing GRRM's amazing groundwork is a blow, but to lose the deft touch and pacing they'd shown over the course of 6.5 seasons for the sake of maintaining momentum is unfortunate. It's still one of my favorite series of all time, but as a book reader and obsessive fan I just wish we had more time with these characters... And it seems like somewhere else in our mulit-verse we could have gotten another ten episodes and fixed a lot of the endgame issues

[fuse]

If the producers can overlook a coffee cup, surely they could have found a way to incorporate Grey Worm and Missandei dancing:

https://twitter.com/chefwaites/statu...130431488?s=21

[Udaman]

What should happen? This show only makes sense if Daenerys becomes the "mad queen," filled with rage. She attacks King Landing at night and under cloud cover so they can't defend themselves. She kills Jon Snow to keep him from ascending to the thrown. She kills Varys (because he's clearly spying on her and passing on information). Euron gets killed by Cersai (or his sister). Arya then kills Daenerys, and is then killed by Grey Worm. The Hound kills The Mountain (who also kills The Hound), Jaime kills Cersei and is killed by The Mountain before he's then killed by The Hound...and at the end Tyrion sits on the Iron Throne as the only remaining sibling. That would be epic and unexpected, a hallmark of this series.

What will happen? Daenerys will kill Varys (this is a certainty, foreshadowed in Episode 1 of Season 8). This will cause Tyrion all kinds of angst, but he will still stick by her. They will hint at her becoming mad, but in the end Jon Snow will defeat her anger with love, and they will both rule the Iron Throne. Euron is killed by Cersai, and Cersai is killed by Arya (who lives). The Hound and The Mountain kill each other.

It's too bad. This series still stands (in my opinion) as one of the best ever, but it's limping to the finish with lame writing and storytelling, and people doing things that make zero sense and/or are completely out of their character. Sad.

[bjornolf]

Here's a plot idea.

Arya takes on and kills the Mountain in order to get close to Cersei. She puts on the Mountains' face.
The Hound intercepts Arya/Mountain and Arya/Mountain are forced to do battle with the Hound (say she isn't in a position to disclose her identity).

Or, Arya kills Euron (please) and then must do battle with Jaime.

What a great character/spy. Alas, unused.

I had been thinking about Arya/Mountain. I keep hearing Cersei commenting on how the Mountain seemed to be shrinking. She’s a graceful, dexterous, trained assassin though. Stilts under the armor maybe? Standing on Tyrion’s shoulders?

I don’t think the faceless men grow or shrink. I doubt Frey, for instance, was much different in height to Arya, and they only saw her standing up on the dais next to women, so it wasn’t obvious. And Walder didn’t recognize the serving girl who killed him, so he’d have no frame of reference on her height, so that didn’t matter either. The faceless man who trained Arya never seemed to change height either.

[alteran]

So, I was willing to go along with the mechanics of how faces are created but never quite understood how assuming the other physical dimensions worked. Arya was a lot smaller physically than Walder Frey, for example. The Mountain's face on an Arya-sized body would be terrifying still but more of a put-her-in-a-terrarium-and-feed-it-crickets sort of way.

The books show that putting on faces has an magical element to it. You don’t merely put on a face that magically melds with your face— your every aspect changes, including things like height and hair, you speak in their voice and even experience a subset of their thoughts.

It’s not like a Mission Impossible face.

The show doesn’t explicate that, but I think it’s there from the subtext, like the voice changes, hair changes, Arya posing as a much taller woman with Walder Frey, etc.

[El_Diablo]

I don't understand all the hate they are getting. Yeah, this season is uneven, but I think two years of build up from the show, and a few decades of build up for book fans meant they were destined to end up disappointing some folks. They have given us six (or seven) seasons of really good television. They still have two more chances to redeem this season. I would have no problem with them taking over my next favorite franchise.

Not a lot of shows end on a high note with critical acclaim. The Americans would be a recent counter-example, but there aren't many others.

Breaking Bad is an obvious counter-example. The Sopranos, The Wire and Mad Men also had strong/consistent final seasons.

I think D&D did a good job adapting the existing source material. But I think they have done a pretty poor job when straying outside the lines though, and it certainly didn't start this season. They have been primarily focused for two years (Seasons 7 and 8) on moving the characters from set piece to set piece, failing to develop (or in many cases even actively undermining) characters' motivations, pacing, internal logic, and finer plotting details that make for a good story. They have consistently prioritized shock value for its own sake. The Season 7 Winterfell plotline (i.e., Sansa vs. Arya vs. Littlefinger) is an example of this. Sansa and Arya have been separated for years but quickly fell into "I'm going to kill you" mode for very dubious reasons; the turning point scene (where Bran tells them about Littlefinger, which was filmed but not aired) was cut to preserve the surprise for the audience; and the characters then immediately revert to a "nothing is more important than family" refrain that has served as the pretext for tension with Dany this season. And that Winterfell story was a major plotline spanning several episodes...there are numerous smaller plot developments and individual scenes that have problems in terms of logic/consistency/nonsensical decisionmaking (some of which have been addressed here recently). And then there's just sloppy dialogue showing a simple lack of attention to detail. E.g., off the top of my head, in just this past episode alone we saw Tormund extol Jon as a "madman" for having ridden a dragon but forgetting that Tormund himself rode a dragon in Season 7, we saw Gendry refer to himself as Gendry Rivers even though he is not from the Riverlands (bastards in King's Landing and the Crownlands are named Waters), and we saw Jaime claim that he strangled his cousin to escape from Robb's camp when in fact he had killed his cousin by repeatedly bashing his head in (although he did strangle a guard later, so it seems like the writers just mixed that up). Those are minor details, but they add up.

[Udaman]

Breaking Bad is an obvious counter-example. The Sopranos, The Wire and Mad Men also had strong/consistent final seasons.

I think D&D did a good job adapting the existing source material. But I think they have done a pretty poor job when straying outside the lines though, and it certainly didn't start this season. They have been primarily focused for two years (Seasons 7 and 8) on moving the characters from set piece to set piece, failing to develop (or in many cases even actively undermining) characters' motivations, pacing, internal logic, and finer plotting details that make for a good story. They have consistently prioritized shock value for its own sake. The Season 7 Winterfell plotline (i.e., Sansa vs. Arya vs. Littlefinger) is an example of this. Sansa and Arya have been separated for years but quickly fell into "I'm going to kill you" mode for very dubious reasons; the turning point scene (where Bran tells them about Littlefinger, which was filmed but not aired) was cut to preserve the surprise for the audience; and the characters then immediately revert to a "nothing is more important than family" refrain that has served as the pretext for tension with Dany this season. And that Winterfell story was a major plotline spanning several episodes...there are numerous smaller plot developments and individual scenes that have problems in terms of logic/consistency/nonsensical decisionmaking (some of which have been addressed here recently). And then there's just sloppy dialogue showing a simple lack of attention to detail. E.g., off the top of my head, in just this past episode alone we saw Tormund extol Jon as a "madman" for having ridden a dragon but forgetting that Tormund himself rode a dragon in Season 7, we saw Gendry refer to himself as Gendry Rivers even though he is not from the Riverlands (bastards in King's Landing and the Crownlands are named Waters), and we saw Jaime claim that he strangled his cousin to escape from Robb's camp when in fact he had killed his cousin by repeatedly bashing his head in (although he did strangle a guard later, so it seems like the writers just mixed that up). Those are minor details, but they add up.

This! Fully agree. At least with Dani they have been consistent. She's always been on the border of kind and cruel. But Sansa has changed completely. So has how people view Jon. And the Jaime/Brianne hookup was just cringe worthy. In every way possible.

[darthur]

This! Fully agree. At least with Dani they have been consistent. She's always been on the border of kind and cruel. But Sansa has changed completely. So has how people view Jon. And the Jaime/Brianne hookup was just cringe worthy. In every way possible.

+1. I don't ask that the show writing be perfect. I ask that it not be cringe-worthy. After last season, my expectations were pretty low; I just want to know what happens and for the writing to not be so aggressively bad as to break immersion. This season has failed to meet even those low expectations. Unlike something like Lost, I'm fine with the overall story arc and don't feel there's a letdown on mysteries or anything. Just the episode-by-episode storytelling isn't good anymore, and it's bad in a way that's insulting, like the writers aren't even trying.

I will say there still are sporadic great moments like Brienne getting knighted by Jaime, but they are few and far between.

[bundabergdevil]

...but I really thought B&W had the writers and network in place to wrap things up closer to Breaking Bad and The Americans prestige-levels. I understand that losing GRRM's amazing groundwork is a blow, but to lose the deft touch and pacing they'd shown over the course of 6.5 seasons for the sake of maintaining momentum is unfortunate. It's still one of my favorite series of all time, but as a book reader and obsessive fan I just wish we had more time with these characters... And it seems like somewhere else in our mulit-verse we could have gotten another ten episodes and fixed a lot of the endgame issues

Jason mentioned upstreams that HBO gave them $200M for the final two seasons' 20 episodes and the showrunners said something along the lines of, "Well, we don't think there's enough story for 20 episodes, just 13, but we're going to do some big BIG things in those 13 and can still use all the money." Part of me wonders if they misread why GoT became such a hit with their audiences with that reasoning. Sure, the shock value of things like the Red Wedding and the spectacle of Battle of Blackwater, Hardhome, etc caught fire and became real cultural moments. But, those were supported by carefully laying the groundwork and establishing character motivations and what was at risk for them. Seems they've short-circuited all that to rush from grand moment to grand moment --- it rings hollow because the audience has become familiar enough with the logic and pacing of the show, the characters history and motivations, to see the difference.

[alteran]

+1. I don't ask that the show writing be perfect. I ask that it not be cringe-worthy. After last season, my expectations were pretty low; I just want to know what happens and for the writing to not be so aggressively bad as to break immersion. This season has failed to meet even those low expectations. Unlike something like Lost, I'm fine with the overall story arc and don't feel there's a letdown on mysteries or anything. Just the episode-by-episode storytelling isn't good anymore, and it's bad in a way that's insulting, like the writers aren't even trying.

I will say there still are sporadic great moments like Brienne getting knighted by Jaime, but they are few and far between.

So much this.

There’s so much that’s simply insulting. I’m totally up to willingly suspend my disbelief, really I am.

Vis-a-vis my previous rant about ballista, there were real (but lesser) problems with the same weapon last year on the loot train episode, but I didn’t care because the arc of the story worked, the characters were, uhm, true to character, the stretching of truth was real but not comical, and the elements advanced the story believably. I went along and didn’t mind too much, although I thought the aftermath of Jaimie’s dragon charge was handled in a lazy, careless fashion (unfortunately, a sign of things to come).

I’m hanging on to see how things play out— even looking forward to how things play out— but this season feels more like the writers have enabled cheat codes across the board to keep the plot going, rather than making even face-saving efforts at believability.

Hopefully, last week was as bad as it gets. Not holding my breath, though.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

This! Fully agree. At least with Dani they have been consistent. She's always been on the border of kind and cruel. But Sansa has changed completely. So has how people view Jon. And the Jaime/Brianne hookup was just cringe worthy. In every way possible.

Sansa's growth feels realistic - she has become more calculated as a result of being burned over and over. I agree that Jamie/Brienne was a bit heavy handed, but how do you see Jon has changed? He's the most consistent as best I can see. He has virtuous motivations and his fatal flaw is his honesty. He's Ned 2.0, despite being a Targaryan by birth. He reacts emotionally to injustice.
I don't have much issue with Danny's arc, as she was almost too self-righteous to continue her path. And they have made it clear that rage and madness were a family trait, so bending towards that feels authentic.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So much this.

There’s so much that’s simply insulting. I’m totally up to willingly suspend my disbelief, really I am.

Vis-a-vis my previous rant about ballista, there were real (but lesser) problems with the same weapon last year on the loot train episode, but I didn’t care because the arc of the story worked, the characters were, uhm, true to character, the stretching of truth was real but not comical, and the elements advanced the story believably. I went along and didn’t mind too much, although I thought the aftermath of Jaimie’s dragon charge was handled in a lazy, careless fashion (unfortunately, a sign of things to come).

I’m hanging on to see how things play out— even looking forward to how things play out— but this season feels more like the writers have enabled cheat codes across the board to keep the plot going, rather than making even face-saving efforts at believability.

Hopefully, last week was as bad as it gets. Not holding my breath, though.

I thought Jamie's charge was very much in character. A disgraced and crippled fighter, a knight mostly only by name after the loss of his hand, sees a moment, a window, to end the war and save countless lives immediately after seeing the devastating power of the dragons moments earlier.
My biggest issue (this scene included) is the lengths they have gone to to keep characters alive. Had Bronn knocked Jamie into the water and he had downed in his charge at Dany, (how do men in full armor swim to the surface anyway?) I would have found that a satisfying ending to a great character arc. Instead, the next episode being with him coughing up water, inexplicably on the river's edge.

[Wander]

Sansa's growth feels realistic - she has become more calculated as a result of being burned over and over. I agree that Jamie/Brienne was a bit heavy handed, but how do you see Jon has changed? He's the most consistent as best I can see. He has virtuous motivations and his fatal flaw is his honesty. He's Ned 2.0, despite being a Targaryan by birth. He reacts emotionally to injustice.
I don't have much issue with Danny's arc, as she was almost too self-righteous to continue her path. And they have made it clear that rage and madness were a family trait, so bending towards that feels authentic.

Yeah, I am fully on board with some of the criticisms of this season – the lack of mythology reveal in the zombie battle was super lame, tons of tactics and depictions of individual character fights in the zombie battle were super lame, the way the show has treated Good Boy Ghost has been embarrassing, and I strongly agree with JE that condensing to 13 episodes instead of 20 was a terrible decision and has caused a lot of plotlines and writing to suffer. But I don't get the complaints about people acting out of character. Jon, Dany, Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Jamie, etc have all acted exactly like I would expect them to, including their mistakes. Tyrion might be the exception... but we'll have to wait and see if he's going to betray Dany or not before fully evaluating that.

Honestly, this thread is starting to feel like a post-loss Duke basketball thread in how much complaining there is (some justified and some not), and I think I'm going to bow out to preserve some of my enjoyment of the last two episodes...

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Yeah, I am fully on board with some of the criticisms of this season – the lack of mythology reveal in the zombie battle was super lame, tons of tactics and depictions of individual character fights in the zombie battle were super lame, the way the show has treated Good Boy Ghost has been embarrassing, and I strongly agree with JE that condensing to 13 episodes instead of 20 was a terrible decision and has caused a lot of plotlines and writing to suffer. But I don't get the complaints about people acting out of character. Jon, Dany, Cersei, Sansa, Arya, Jamie, etc have all acted exactly like I would expect them to, including their mistakes. Tyrion might be the exception... but we'll have to wait and see if he's going to betray Dany or not before fully evaluating that.

Honestly, this thread is starting to feel like a post-loss Duke basketball thread in how much complaining there is (some justified and some not), and I think I'm going to bow out to preserve some of my enjoyment of the last two episodes...

Good god, you’re right... This thread has a legitimate chance of devolving into a minutes discussion, doesn’t it?

[JasonEvans]

I’m hanging on to see how things play out— even looking forward to how things play out— but this season feels more like the writers have enabled cheat codes across the board to keep the plot going, rather than making even face-saving efforts at believability.

Toward that end... An article that says the problem with Game of Thrones is that it has become a video game.

One of the most mocked aspects of the show is how the characters now seem able to zip effortlessly around the whole world. Traveling from King’s Landing to Winterfell once took multiple episodes. Now, that’s done in one scene. How can Daenerys travel 2,600 miles in a single episode to save Jon Snow? How can Arya travel from Braavos to Riverrun in the span of time it takes to fight the Battle of the Bastards? For some viewers, these inconsistencies shatter the credibility the show about dragons and cold zombies once had.

But season 8 works under a different set of rules than everything before it. To put it one way, the characters have powered up enough to have unlocked new traits and abilities.

Video game players can probably follow the logic: Characters gather new weapons and powers as they advance through the game, getting them ready for the final boss.

The video game logic in Game of Thrones has been growing more and more apparent as the show speeds towards its finale. Every decision, every kill, and every death (not to mention every miraculous, heavily damaged survival) are no longer to develop characters, they are now about riding the story’s momentum to the final few confrontations.

[Udaman]

Good god, you’re right... This thread has a legitimate chance of devolving into a minutes discussion, doesn’t it?

Final Four! Final Four!

: - )

OK, really trying not to complain all that much here. I would put GOT in the top 4 TV shows of all time (along with Sopranos, Breaking Bad and The Wire). Nothing these last two episodes will change that.

As for Jon - my frustration hasn't been with him...but with how he's been viewed. His sisters doubting him makes little sense. At first the men didn't trust him, then they made him King of the North, then they didn't trust him again, and now they worship him after the Battle of Winterfell (when really it's Arya they would worship). And I don't like how all the main people (sans three, and minor main people at that) survived the Night King army. By the way, I liked Jaime charging the dragon and getting knocked into the water. I didn't like him sinking (no river is that deep that close to shore) and didn't like him coming up out of the water a half a mile away. That is lazy writing to me. And I get him leaving Kings Landing (great scene). But almost everything after that has made no sense with the rest of the story. Cersei sending Bronn to kill him and Tyrion? No sense. Bronn then showing up and actually threatening both of them? No sense. Jaimie then falling for Breanne? No sense. And don't get me started on the tactical fighting decisions of Dany (flying right into a trap). This isn't just one small mistake. It's a bunch on top of each other for a show that rarely had a miss over 7 previous seasons.

But I trust them. I think the ending will be epic. I just hope they take an unexpected path. If Jon and Dany share the throne, I'll be disappointed. As I said, perfect ending for me is that all the main characters die except for Tyrion, Sansa and Bronn. Tyrion sits on the Iron Throne. Sansa is Ruler of the North.

[bjornolf]

I thought Jamie's charge was very much in character. A disgraced and crippled fighter, a knight mostly only by name after the loss of his hand, sees a moment, a window, to end the war and save countless lives immediately after seeing the devastating power of the dragons moments earlier.
My biggest issue (this scene included) is the lengths they have gone to to keep characters alive. Had Bronn knocked Jamie into the water and he had downed in his charge at Dany, (how do men in full armor swim to the surface anyway?) I would have found that a satisfying ending to a great character arc. Instead, the next episode being with him coughing up water, inexplicably on the river's edge.

He said the aftermath of Jaime’s charge. Somehow Bronn knocked him into water that’s ankle deep on the horse, but he sinks like 20 feet in full armor. Then somehow Bronn pulls him out far enough downstream to be safe, and he doesn’t drown somehow. Which is what you said.