I was proud of the team during the comeback. Just dug too deep a hole.
This team doesn't look poorly coached to me. Sometimes they just don't execute.
There has definitely been a recruiting slide the last couple of years. I'm not convinced a new coach will fix that, though I suppose it depends on the coach.
— Duke is 0-3 in the ACC for the first time since 1992-93, Goestenkors’ first year.
— After 15 games, Duke is 8-7. That is the worst record after 15 games since 1983-84.
We have evidence that there exist coaches who can bring top talent to durham. If you're a top recruit, why would you look at duke right now?
I agree that there is no evidence that THIS season's issues are more a coaching issue than any other, but X/Os aren't everything...and recruiting is a huge part of college sports.
1200. DDMF.
And they brought that top talent here working in tandem with Coach P. Your question assumes the reason the top recruits haven't signed with Duke the past couple years is they don't want to play for Coach P (if there are other reasons that would repel them now but attract them with a new coach, I can't think what they might be). As I said, I'm not convinced.
That is absolutely correct. As a top prospect, why would you go to a program that routinely misses the tournament, especially under the coach that over saw a program falling from a final four contender to a state where it is regularly missing the tournament.
We agree an awful lot, and while I find your commitment to postivity about the women's program admirable, I think you have your head in the sand on this one.
1200. DDMF.
Yes- she has not brought championships but come on. Since 2013- they finished 2nd twice and 4th twice in the conference, and got to a Sweet 16. The team has had double digit losses only 2 of those years and finished in the top 10 nationally twice. Yes the program is not high-end elite but it is not awful. I agree that P should not be renewed - I think some new blood is needed- but injuries have really hurt this program recently. Since 2011, K has only won 1 ACC Conference or regular season championship and went to the FF once. If not for the NC in 2015- one could make a case that the men's team is in similar decline.
My head may be in the sand, but taking something that happened in 2016 and then (maybe) again in 2019 (and at no other time since long before Coach P arrived at Duke) and describing it as "routinely" or "regularly" occurring would appear to be severely overstating your case.
Knowing the fan base- being number 1 now and not in the FF in April- there will be some folks wondering why we are not recruiting long term players- etc etc. My point is that using championships as the main measure of success - one can skew the interpretation of a program. I want to be clear that I am not disappointed as Duke fan - even if we do not reach a FF this season. I also think getting an ACC championship and not a FF is still a good season- but I am probably in the minority.
I think someone's view depends on when they began their fandom. If you were at Duke (or started rooting for Duke) in the 1970s or early 1980s (as I was), the idea that anything-short-of-a-national-championship-is-a-failure was laughable. Every achievement was celebrated because those achievements were rare and precious. It can be (and has been) persuasively argued that Coach K's success (and to a lesser extent Coach G's) severely spoiled the younger segment of the Duke fan base.
I think you're undervaluing the importance of making the tournament for top women's programs. I think the distribution and impact of top recruits in women's basketball is greater than that in men. The degree to which the "impact" distribution falls off is much greater, So the school choices of those players is very important. It turns out those players simply don't go to teams that regularly miss the tournament. Looking at the landing places for top recruits, they fall in two categories:
Schools that never miss the tournament ever: (last miss)
stanford: 1987
TN: 1981
Baylor: 2003
ND: 1995
Connecticut: 1988
Schools that got a coach who built a program recently from regularly missing the tournament to rarely missing ever:
USC: 2011 (dawn staley got them there in her to the tourney in her fourth year and hasn't missed since)
MD: 2010 (Frese's only miss since her first year)
OSU: 2014 (McGuff's first year)
Mississippi State: 2014 (Schaefer's second year)
Louisville: 2010 (Walz's second season)
Syracuse: 2012 (Hillsman turned them from consistently missing to going every year)
Missouri: 2015 (program was awful under stein and hasn't missed since)
texas: 2014 (Aston's first season)
This encompasses the top 10 recruits each of the last two years. What does it say that Duke will have missed the tournament twice since any program on that list has missed? That's not a good look. Top players simply don't go to programs that miss the tournament. The data is pretty damning. best player this year is #77, best player next year is #58. These are good kids, but not the kind of recruits that are going to take this program out of the relative doldrums.
The bar has lowered from title, to final four, to now just making the tournament.
The program is not getting recruits, and the program is not winning.
1200. DDMF.
The Duke men's BB program is the #1 program in college BB by just about any measure.
The Duke women's BB program under Coach G was a top 10, arguably a top 5 program measured in term of recruiting and results.
Where would folks rank our women's program now. I would say top 40 and falling.
Last edited by chrishoke; 01-12-2019 at 12:19 PM.
"This is the best of all possible worlds."
Dr. Pangloss - Candide
Team wise, we are not in the top 40. This is an expected down year, however.
Program wise, I would say top 30, and falling. This is born out in landing lesser recruits more than wins and losses. I have no doubt that Duke can get back to being an elite program. New blood selling Duke as a program on the rebound is more than possible. A prime example is Texas, ironically led by Coach G into waters that Duke is now treading. They are a top team again. (Currently ranked 11, with both losses to top 10 teams.)
There is no denying that Coach P has overseen the gradual decline of DWBB. Yes, there have been some successes in the last 5 years, but not enough to stave off the slippery slope, and it is getting very slippery.
As I've said before...bring on Coach Joy Cheek!
Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."
Perhaps. There are a lot of folks who see one FF in 8 years as a failure of Duke's program. Some have argued that K's reliance on one and done players has been the problem. Duke's program is still relevant but it is not winning championships of any kind or getting to the FF at the same rate as other top programs in recent years. Fair - probably not- but one can easily be critical.
Like who? In the past 5 years
UK: 2
UNC: 2
Duke: 1
Nova: 2
Kansas: 1
UCLA: 0
Michigan State: 1
Wisconsin: 2
Quite the failure to have fallen 1 behind a couple schools. Fortunately, our failure as a men's program doesn't seem to have deterred top recruits in the same way it has for the women.
The men's game changed. The age of dynastic runs of final four after final four is over.
1200. DDMF.