Are we THAT bad, or unlucky?

[bhd28]

Not throwing any blame the coaches' way, I just think a young group like ours was very much susceptible to distraction caused by this week's overblown media nasal circus.

Why not? I actually think Coach K deserves some blame in this one. The guys should know how to guard a pick-and-roll to at least some degree by now.

[_Gary]

Why not? I actually think Coach K deserves some blame in this one. The guys should know how to guard a pick-and-roll to at least some degree by now.

Everybody keeps harping on the pick & roll, and it was bad. But the thing that stood out to me was the complete lack of any one on one defensive prowess in the post. We got abused every time the ball was lobbed in. Both McBob and Nelson went for headfakes on more than one occasion that created some easy layups. I'm still convinced our perimeter defensive wasn't that bad tonight (not great, but it didn't cost us the game, IMHO). It's our post defensive that needs the most attending to over the summer. Again, just my opinion.

Gary

[A-Tex Devil]

I'm thinking specifically of Wright who, if he had come here like so many of us were expecting, could and would have made a big difference! Gary

I'll admit to not having seen a lot of Carolina this year except when we played them, but has Wright been that great on D? I mean, obviously, he would have helped a whole lot.

But we didn't need Wright to beat state tonight. If Atsur and Costner are better than Paulus and McRoberts, why didn't we (and everyone else that wanted McRoberts and Paulus and everyone else we have) recruit them? Disclaimer: I don't believe this is true, although tonight tested my faith.

But overall I agree with most people here. We turn the ball over too much and we have no interior presence on offense or defense. Just terribly disappointed. We either lost to an inferior team tonight or our program took a more serious downturn this year than I realize.

[jipops]

If that is the case, we have more problems than I realize. We've had the pick of recruits the last several years (with a few exceptions), and I imagine we could have most if not all of NC State's recruits had we wanted them.

If NC State is truly more "talented," then we have a talent evaluation problem. We should have won tonight, period.

The coaches do not have a talent evaluation problem. WE have a talent evaluation problem. Look, we have some very good players. It has been an unrealistic expectation that these guys were going to dominate the ACC the same way the teams of this past decade have. I rolled my eyes for days after seeing us picked to finish 2nd in the conference. Could anyone not see how ridiculous that expecation was. We were supposed to beat out other teams with extremely talented upperclassmen? Now that would have been an amazing feat, would have given K Coach of the century.

People around here are spoiled. They don't remember the 80's and early 90's where players took 2-3 years to become true impact and sometimes dominant players. We expect any player that once wore a fast food jersey to come in and be a star. This is a ludicrous and uneducated expectation. If a player's glaring weaknesses cannot be overshadowed by his strengths at the college level, then that player is going to have to undergo an adjustment period. If that player undergoes injuries and/or has surgeries (like FOUR of our guys) that adjustment could take longer. K is obviously trying to build a core team that is going to be together for a few years. Sure an athletic freak like a Brandon Wright or Lawson would be nice. But we can't expect to see many players like that. Keep in mind that K did recruit Hansblah as well, we simply missed out on that one.

So yes, I did see a more talented team in NC State tonight. Costner was able to play to his strengths by driving to his right all night. Atsur's experience toyed with our guys throughout the 2nd half. McCauley obviously has a more advanced post game than Josh. Also, not often that you go up against such big guards that all so effectively use the dribble.

But give our guys a year or so to gain experience, and we'll be able to create matchup problems for the opposition.

[mapei]

I think we are weak (compared to other top programs and compared to past Duke teams) at the 3, 4, and 5 positions. At the 3, DeMarcus would be a 6th man on Duke's final four teams, not our leading scorer. At the 4, McClure is steady and really easy to like with his clutch "glue" plays, but he doesn't offer much scoring and fouls too much. Thomas contributes little. At the 5, we're playing someone who really is a 4 or even 3.

This is also a slow team compared to what I'm used to from Duke. I saw the 2001 Duke/MD game on espnClassic earlier this week. That team would beat this one by about 20, and had four guys who are better than any of our current guys. And the starters were all underclassmen except for Shane, so that team was young, too.

As for Brandan Wright, he would make not only our team but *any* team much better. He's a great talent. We don't have anyone on our roster that good.

Will we be a top 5 team in two years, as someone said? Yes, if we get better players. I think Paulus, McClure, Nelson and McRoberts are playing now about as well as they are going to. They may have some upside, but not a lot. And I don't see it in Zoubek or Thomas either, though I'll love it if I'm wrong about that. Scheyer and Henderson, yes - those guys look like they have it to me, and so might Marty, though my opinion on Marty may not matter if K disagrees.

Bob G mentioned that we make great plays at times and only lack consistency. Yes, that's what keeps mediocre teams from being great ones. That observation would define about 50 other NCAA teams in addition to Duke.

[rsvman]

Brandan Wright would not have saved tonight, or the season.


In fact, many people think he is UNC's worst defensive player. He's a powerhouse on offense, yes, but his interior defense is no better than the guys we have; if anything, it's probably worse. He gets an occasional spectacular block, but aside from the highlight reel moments, there's a lot to dislike about Wright's defense.

[jipops]

Why not? I actually think Coach K deserves some blame in this one. The guys should know how to guard a pick-and-roll to at least some degree by now.

Actually K did take some blame in the post-game presser. This simply looked like an unfocused team tonight. Keep in mind we're posting on this board about a team that is still largely made up of teenagers, there may be one or two on the entire squad above legal drinking age. Would be hard to see how a teenager could stay focused through all the idiotic hatred that has been thrown their way this past week.

[_Gary]

Brandan Wright would not have saved tonight, or the season.

We will have to agree to disagree on that comment, my friend. I realize that Wright is not considered UNC's best post defender, and that many aren't in love with his defense in Chapel Hill, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have greatly helped this team in the post - on both offense and defense. He would have!

Gary

[dukelifer]

I think we are weak (compared to other top programs and compared to past Duke teams) at the 3, 4, and 5 positions. At the 3, DeMarcus would be a 6th man on Duke's final four teams, not our leading scorer. At the 4, McClure is steady and really easy to like with his clutch "glue" plays, but he doesn't offer much scoring and fouls too much. Thomas contributes little. At the 5, we're playing someone who really is a 4 or even 3.

This is also a slow team compared to what I'm used to from Duke. I saw the 2001 Duke/MD game on espnClassic earlier this week. That team would beat this one by about 20, and had four guys who are better than any of our current guys. And the starters were all underclassmen except for Shane, so that team was young, too.

As for Brandan Wright, he would make not only our team but *any* team much better. He's a great talent. We don't have anyone on our roster that good.

Will we be a top 5 team in two years, as someone said? Yes, if we get better players. I think Paulus, McClure, Nelson and McRoberts are playing now about as well as they are going to. They may have some upside, but not a lot. And I don't see it in Zoubek or Thomas either, though I'll love it if I'm wrong about that. Scheyer and Henderson, yes - those guys look like they have it to me, and so might Marty, though my opinion on Marty may not matter if K disagrees.

Bob G mentioned that we make great plays at times and only lack consistency. Yes, that's what keeps mediocre teams from being great ones. That observation would define about 50 other NCAA teams in addition to Duke.

The 2001 team had two seniors- and their leadership AND play was invaluable to their winning. Duke would not have won it all without them. Their leadershio on that team cannot be underestimated. This current Duke team has no one even close. DN is a junior who has barely played two complete seasons. Experience helps to win games- you saw that from Atsur tonight. If he does not pick that team up with his second half play- State would have folded. Experience is VERY important to winning- particularly tight games. Duke has mostly lost tight games all year because they failed to make the right play at the right time. Somehow, Shane and other seniors over the year have had a knack for making the right play and bringing along their talented underclassman.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Jacone21: Your post is exactly right... all the things that our great teams did are not being done by this team. I remember when Christian Laettner was a freshman and missed a couple of free throws at the end of a game because the opposing fans got under his skin. When the whistle blew, all the upperclassmen (and there were some then) ran over to tell him that the loss wasn't his fault.

But when Christian returned to Durham, he roped in a bunch of loud brassy guys to sit in Cameron and call him EVERY NAME in the book while he shot free throws... over and over and over. So in the UNLV game in 1991, when he stepped up to the free throw line with 12 seconds left and two shots, he hit both of them perfectly (regardless of the crowd comments). Is there a single player on this team who has stepped up like that? Tried to learn something (like free throw shooting) that could help the team?

[Chicago 1995]

Youth. (I would've made this a one-word answer but apparently you need to post at least 10 characters!)

Youth's only part of it. There are young teams who have developed in ways we haven't, including a Texas team that's nearly as inexperienced.

We've got some talent issues too, and talent issues that aren't going away.

[A-Tex Devil]

[QUOTE=jipops;4268]The coaches do not have a talent evaluation problem. WE have a talent evaluation problem. QUOTE]

I'll buy that to some extent. But I will take a bit of a "snob" attitude and say if we're Duke and we get the best recruits, how come the "best recruits" that we get aren't playing as well as others in their same class across the country? (I'll compare Hansborough to Josh as one example (or hell, how about Costner), Greg Paulus to Dominique James as another).

My first two years rooting for Duke were '94'-95 and '95-'96 so I feel I have a bit of perspective. The biggest problem with team this year, and it's youth related, is just a lack of leadership. And I'm not sure that's something the Sophomores or Juniors, except perhaps Greg, are strong in, or ever wiil be/would have been. I saw it in Wojo and Chris Carrawell from Day 1 as freshmen. I just hope we get an ***-kicker on this team soon because it needs it.

[mapei]

>The 2001 team had two seniors- and their leadership AND play was invaluable to their winning. Duke would not have won it all without them.

Well, Shane was incredible - I'll certainly give you that. He's my all-time favorite player. And Nate was a terrific sixth man, who hit two game-winning shots that year, including one in the game I just re-watched. But we also had JWill (soph), Boozer (soph), Dunleavy (soph, I think?), and Duhon (freshman) - four out of five starters were young. My real point isn't just that they were young, but that they were better players at each position than the ones we have now, *even though they were young*. Experience matters, but so does talent.

[dukelifer]

This Duke team has more high school AAs than anyone, but it just doesn't win close games. I think this proves that being a McD AA doesn't mean stardom in college hoops. If it did, Duke would be a #1 seed again this year.

Let's face it...our guys just aren't as talented as teams like Ohio State, Texas and UNC, all of which are as young as Duke. Hopefully, next year's AA recruits will prove to be better college players, and our existing guys will have another year of experience.

Now, let's see about next week.

Duke had fewer McD AA last year than this - and they were a number 1 seed. I think this proves Duke should recruit fewer McD AA. Ohio State, Texas and UNC all have several players with NBA level talent. Duke may have 2 players that will be in the NBA. Just having NBA level talent does not mean you will win it all- but it does help in certain situations. Not all McD AA are equivalent.

[SharkD]

Youth's only part of it. There are young teams who have developed in ways we haven't, including a Texas team that's nearly as inexperienced.

Texas doesn't exactly live under the same microscope and heightened expectations that Duke does. Nor did Texas have the second-hardest schedule in the nation.

Jacone21: Your post is exactly right... all the things that our great teams did are not being done by this team. I remember when Christian Laettner was a freshman and missed a couple of free throws at the end of a game because the opposing fans got under his skin. When the whistle blew, all the upperclassmen (and there were some then) ran over to tell him that the loss wasn't his fault.

But when Christian returned to Durham, he roped in a bunch of loud brassy guys to sit in Cameron and call him EVERY NAME in the book while he shot free throws... over and over and over. So in the UNLV game in 1991, when he stepped up to the free throw line with 12 seconds left and two shots, he hit both of them perfectly (regardless of the crowd comments). Is there a single player on this team who has stepped up like that? Tried to learn something (like free throw shooting) that could help the team?

DeMarcus Nelson. Who spent quite a bit of time with Assoc. Coach Dawkins at the charity stripe. The fact of the matter is that most of these "character building" stories don't come out until Tourney Time or 2-3 years after the event. Coach K made it pretty clear after the Greg Newton fiasco that if a player isn't making an effort, he won't get playing time.

The 2001 team had two seniors- and their leadership AND play was invaluable to their winning. Duke would not have won it all without them. Their leadershio on that team cannot be underestimated. This current Duke team has no one even close. DN is a junior who has barely played two complete seasons. Experience helps to win games- you saw that from Atsur tonight. If he does not pick that team up with his second half play- State would have folded. Experience is VERY important to winning- particularly tight games. Duke has mostly lost tight games all year because they failed to make the right play at the right time. Somehow, Shane and other seniors over the year have had a knack for making the right play and bringing along their talented underclassman.

Exactly. You plucked the words right out of my brain... before I even thought them.

...My real point isn't just that they were young, but that they were better players at each position than the ones we have now, *even though they were young*. Experience matters, but so does talent.

I'll grant you that that 2001 National Championship team had more talent than this squad -- even Coach K says so. They also had the advantage of having more polish, as a result of their personal experiences and the leg-up you get from having talented Upperclassmen who know the ropes and give the young guys a leg up.

--

I've been a Duke fan since I was 5 (1984/85 season) -- I've seen strong teams, talented teams, driven teams, weak teams... etc. I'll agree with Coach K (he is probably a much better judge than I) when he says that this is the most perplexing team that he's coached. The raw talent is there, it's just not put to use effectively or consistently.

It may not live up to some people's expectations, but 20+ wins, a 14-1 non-conf record, not folding under the 4L "streak" spotlight and some moments of brilliance at the end of the season, despite the MD/UNC losses is a very solid foundation for what I believe will be a spectacular year next year (assuming McRoberts sticks around).

Not to cast aspersions, but I wonder if the people now predicting doom and gloom would have joined in the chorus calling for Krzyzewski's head after the 1982/83 season. I'm glad that Tom Butters had more faith than some current Duke "fans" do.

[Troublemaker]

Youth's only part of it. There are young teams who have developed in ways we haven't, including a Texas team that's nearly as inexperienced.

We've got some talent issues too, and talent issues that aren't going away.

Right. That's what I meant earlier in this thread when I said that the young teams that are performing better have better players. Durant and Augustine? Obviously, those guys can ball. They're able to reap the benefits of their talents sooner. BUT... those teams like Texas, UNC(Wright,Lawson), Kansas(Wright,Rush) will also have to play the "will he stay" game every season. Duke, on the other hand, well, we can say with better confidence that besides Josh, the players on this roster will see a 3rd and/or 4th year at Duke. I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be a great team in 2009 and 2010 and a very good team in 2008.

[A-Tex Devil]

Right. That's what I meant earlier in this thread when I said that the young teams that are performing better have better players. Durant and Augustine? Obviously, those guys can ball. They're able to reap the benefits of their talents sooner. BUT... those teams like Texas, UNC(Wright,Lawson), Kansas(Wright,Rush) will also have to play the "will he stay" game every season. Duke, on the other hand, well, we can say with better confidence that besides Josh, the players on this roster will see a 3rd and/or 4th year at Duke. I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be a great team in 2009 and 2010 and a very good team in 2008.

We'll have to see. I'm willing to bet that there are going to be a lot more Syracuse '03 teams winning it all with the new rules. Teams with NBA ready Freshman and Sophs.

Sure the occasional Michigan St. '00 and George Mason from last year will make it. But Flordia won a championship with abunch of Sophmores last year. I'm not sure seniority is the key like it used to be.

I really think we should have highlighted out Freshmen earlier. I don't htink anyone in the ACC can stop GH going to the hole one on one. Next year we need to really THINK about who the leader of this team will be. Which player (not coach) are the others' gonna be afraid to screw up in front of. That's why Wojo and Carawell and Battier (ina subtler way) were so awesome. Next year it's Demarcus, Greg or GH. We need some fire!

[Troublemaker]

We'll have to see. I'm willing to bet that there are going to be a lot more Syracuse '03 teams winning it all with the new rules. Teams with NBA ready Freshman and Sophs.

Sure the occasional Michigan St. '00 and George Mason from last year will make it. But Flordia won a championship with abunch of Sophmores last year. I'm not sure seniority is the key like it used to be.

I really think we should have highlighted out Freshmen earlier. I don't htink anyone in the ACC can stop GH going to the hole one on one. Next year we need to really THINK about who the leader of this team will be. Which player (not coach) are the others' gonna be afraid to screw up in front of. That's why Wojo and Carawell and Battier (ina subtler way) were so awesome. Next year it's Demarcus, Greg or GH. We need some fire!

I'll definitely take my chances in 2009 and 2010 with the roster we're expected to have. Let's take a look at what we should have in 09:

Sr Paulus.......So Smith
Jr Scheyer.....Sr Pocius
Jr Henderson...Sr McClure
So Singler....So King
Jr Zoubek(So Patterson?)....Jr Thomas

Add in a freshman Greg Monroe and I'd have to think that roster is top 3 if not top 1 in 2009. It's going to take some seasoning to reach that point, but hey, we have all the time in the world. We're fans of a great college basketball program so let's enjoy the ride.

[bhd28]

Jacone21: Your post is exactly right... all the things that our great teams did are not being done by this team. I remember when Christian Laettner was a freshman and missed a couple of free throws at the end of a game because the opposing fans got under his skin. When the whistle blew, all the upperclassmen (and there were some then) ran over to tell him that the loss wasn't his fault.

But when Christian returned to Durham, he roped in a bunch of loud brassy guys to sit in Cameron and call him EVERY NAME in the book while he shot free throws... over and over and over. So in the UNLV game in 1991, when he stepped up to the free throw line with 12 seconds left and two shots, he hit both of them perfectly (regardless of the crowd comments). Is there a single player on this team who has stepped up like that? Tried to learn something (like free throw shooting) that could help the team?

So Christian Laettner missed FTs as a Frosh... practiced... and hit big shots as a Junior. You are asking if any player has worked and learned this year? I guess we will find out in 2 years if they learned things like CL. If you are asking if the guys have worked hard this year... then I think the answer is yes. "Our youngsters are working hard and trying to get better every day. They are a terrific group and I have loved coaching them." Maybe Coach is being PC... but as many people say, he sees them behind the scenes... we don't. Real improvement in sports takes more than a couple of months... particularly during the season where you spend the majority of your time preparing for the next opponent (and not a small amount of time studying). We won't know how they will really work to improve until next season.

[SoCalDukeFan]

First of all as fans we are probably spoiled or expect too much. The UConnvicts are hoping for an NIT Bid and their fans accept this as a rebuilding year. (At least one fan I know does).

Secondly, we lack experience and leadership. We underrecruited and/or lost players for two years, hence we have one junior and no seniors. And Nelson missed a lot his first two years and he may not be a natural leader, so the leadership mantle falls to sophmores. I can remember hearing how Ferry taught Laettner and Laettner taught Parks etc. Is that going on now?

We lost a lot when we lost Redick and Williams. I forget the numbers but they were a big percentage of our points and rebounds. There is no one who could come in and assume the roles that Redick and Williams had. So there were an abnormal amount of changes that had to be made.

While we may have a lot of McD's AA, I think that the talent level is down. Is there anyone on this team that you think the NBA is ga ga over?

So we had essentially a new team with very little experience and leadership and one lacking a true star player. Our expectations were probably too high.

We lost in overtime. Many of our losses were close.

Lastly no one is dominating. UCLA lost to Cal today. Every ACC tournament game today was essentially an upset. How many #1 seeds last year made it to the Final Four? How many teams do you see as obvious #1 seeds this year?