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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by zingit View Post
    I think another benefit to diving is psychological: you show other teams that you mean business, and they've got to take Duke seriously (or any other team that hustles a lot). It gets in their heads a little bit. And I suppose it is symbolic to the players on our own team as well. The older players have got to teach the younger players the culture of hustling and bringing your A game every time, whether it's NMSU or UNC.
    Sometimes guys don't like people trying to intimidate them. Could, against a rough bunch of guys, backfire. Even against a not so rough bunch of guys who don't distinguish between hard hustle plays and cheap shots. Depends on how lucky you are, I guess.

    So, "Do you feel lucky today, buster. Well do you?" Dirty Harry.

    My bet, the next little that comes to Cameron pays John Channey to sit on the bench and it stops. Hope they're reading this in Ithaca.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Sometimes guys don't like people trying to intimidate them. Could, against a rough bunch of guys, backfire.
    Not to mention the more tangible disadvantage - if you save the ball from going out of bounds, but the other team grabs it, they have a 5 on 4 for at least a few seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    My bet, the next little that comes to Cameron pays John Channey to sit on the bench and it stops. Hope they're reading this in Ithaca.
    I actually was at Cornell's season opener. They played well the entire game, and then, at the end, Lehigh started pressing, and Cornell almost blew a 15 point lead in the final minute and a half or so. Translation: they are going to get slaughtered by Duke's pressure.

  3. #43
    I have actually noticed over the years what the original post pointed out. It always seems noticable at the beginning of the year and has sometimes made me worry about injuries. I have suspected that it was just the energy of a fresh season with an effort by the players to show the hustle demanded of them.

    I figure that early in the season a lot of things a player does on the court is not yet automatic. That is why sometimes the games look mechanical or clunky. And in the case of hustle, I think they just suddenly remember "Oh, that's right, hustle!"

    It generally seems to fade into a more natural hustle by late December.

    Of course, I could be over thinking it.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Brooklet, GA
    I think the reason those kids dive for every loose ball is as follows. If there is a loose ball that K thinks they can get, and they don't make every effort to get it, they will pay dearly in practice for that lack of effort. They know that. So maybe they dive for a few they have no chance of getting, but that beats the heck out of being perceived as not trying. Now, Duhon diving into the 6th row of Crazies, well that's another story.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Newport News, VA

    Practice

    Diving for loose balls is a skill. It's early in the season, and they need practice. They need to find out what works and what doesn't work along with the rest of their game. I would hope that they would dive for a few "impossible" saves just for the practice.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by RockChalk View Post
    So I'm watching Duke/N Mexico State last night and was pretty impressed with your freshmen. But I noticed one thing and wanted to run it by you Dukies.
    Duke players are known for their hustle plays and diving on the floor. It gets Cameron going crazy and pumped up. Obviously the coaches push hustling more than most other teams. But I noticed that there were times when your players dove for no reason or way too late and it was almost like they were doing it just to say they dove. Maybe it was to get the crowd pumped or to impress the coaching staff. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with it and maybe it was just because it was the opening game and they wanted to get a floorburn.
    Has anyone else noticed this?
    I'll comment as a someone who played a different sport that also required diving on the floor, volleyball. As someone who did a lot of diving it was simply what you did if you thought there was the slightest chance of getting the ball. And I thought I could get to every ball. There's no thinking, there's only the ball. And the difference between my defense and someone else who didn't dive for balls was evident as soon as play started.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by RockChalk View Post
    Has anyone else noticed this?
    J-Hawk,

    I have noticed this, especially amongst the underclassmen, and while I don't think it is a "showboating" thing, I do think it is partially to get the attention of the coaches, and also to be a "dukie."

    I also think there is an analogy to be drawn here with our defense and overplaying the passing lanes:

    Sometimes I do think we should maybe not dive for a ball or go for a steal, but on the other hand, that's what makes us Duke. We give 110% on every play and sometimes we pay for it, meaning, if we overplay a passing lane and go for a steal and juuuuuust miss it well now we've overrun the play and its essentially 5 on 4 until that person can get back on D, and sometimes that will lead to an easy bucket for our opponent. But in most games I think it works out for us as we get more turnovers than give up easy buckets.

    Same with hustling/diving: it may cost us a couple times if we dive and dont get the ball (now we have to get up and run back on D, and while we were doing that, the other team may have scored) but on the other hand hopefully that hustle will lead to us getting more loose balls and TOs than the other team...

    But yes, I have noticed this but I only think its primarily from underclassmen and a desire to do things "the duke way." I guarantee you the upperclassmen are hustling and diving on the floor in practice and pickup games (not to the same extent necessarily) so this rubs off on the underclassmen.

    Sorry you had to take grief, but you have to understand that we get a lot of trollers around here and more often that not this type of post is from a troller. Glad to have you around though

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by tombrady View Post
    That Duhon injury when he went flying into a camera didn't play out too well in the NCAAs.
    I was at that game. Duhon had a zero chance of touching that ball, much less controlling it and getting it to a team mate. When it happened, I said to my companion "there goes the National Championship."

    There is no doubt in my mind that he was not diving just to make am impression. However, I do think that Duke players dive for more balls than is necessary. Make of that what you will.

  9. #49

    Tank McNamara

    One of the fun things about the Tank comic strip is the constant theme of him trying to "recover a fumble" every time a dinner roll falls off the table or a kid drops a toy from a passing stroller. The point is that after years of playing competitive football he can't get over the training that even now, many years after his playing career has ended, leads him to instinctively dive for anything that reminds him of a fumble in a game.

    I think Duke players are so well trained to go after EVERY lose ball that they can't stop themselves. Nor do the coaches want them to be "wasting time" thinking "gee, I wonder if I can get that ball or not," or "gee, we're 30 points up; no reason to risk hurting myself diving when we don't really need it." The players are drilled and drilled to dive whenever there's a lose ball in their vicinity. No matter when, no matter what. That's what the coaches want; that's what the players do.

    I think it's just that simple.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    J-Hawk,

    I have noticed this, especially amongst the underclassmen, and while I don't think it is a "showboating" thing, I do think it is partially to get the attention of the coaches, and also to be a "dukie."

    I also think there is an analogy to be drawn here with our defense and overplaying the passing lanes:

    Sometimes I do think we should maybe not dive for a ball or go for a steal, but on the other hand, that's what makes us Duke. We give 110% on every play and sometimes we pay for it, meaning, if we overplay a passing lane and go for a steal and juuuuuust miss it well now we've overrun the play and its essentially 5 on 4 until that person can get back on D, and sometimes that will lead to an easy bucket for our opponent. But in most games I think it works out for us as we get more turnovers than give up easy buckets.

    Same with hustling/diving: it may cost us a couple times if we dive and dont get the ball (now we have to get up and run back on D, and while we were doing that, the other team may have scored) but on the other hand hopefully that hustle will lead to us getting more loose balls and TOs than the other team...

    But yes, I have noticed this but I only think its primarily from underclassmen and a desire to do things "the duke way." I guarantee you the upperclassmen are hustling and diving on the floor in practice and pickup games (not to the same extent necessarily) so this rubs off on the underclassmen.

    Sorry you had to take grief, but you have to understand that we get a lot of trollers around here and more often that not this type of post is from a troller. Glad to have you around though

    Silky J...thanks for the fantastic reply. And thanks to all those who stayed open-minded enough to realize I wasn't criticizing.
    I actually had a thought today at work on this subject. I wish I would have compared Duke hustle to Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma dunking too much and missing a few dunks because they tried too hard for the dunk. It's a good thing but could hurt them if they miss instead of going for the easy layup.

    And the comment on Battier flopping...it's not a "flop" when the refs call a charge, it's just a charge. If it works, so be it.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by RockChalk View Post
    Silky J...thanks for the fantastic reply. And thanks to all those who stayed open-minded enough to realize I wasn't criticizing.
    I actually had a thought today at work on this subject. I wish I would have compared Duke hustle to Houston's Phi Slamma Jamma dunking too much and missing a few dunks because they tried too hard for the dunk. It's a good thing but could hurt them if they miss instead of going for the easy layup.

    And the comment on Battier flopping...it's not a "flop" when the refs call a charge, it's just a charge. If it works, so be it.
    I hate flops. Dean Smith invented them, you guys do know that. Flopping and four corners have no part in the great game. They took away the four corners with the shot clock. They should take away the flop/charge--the most irritating call the game has ever known. Course, you guys can disagree and continue to honor el Deano.

    Some choices are tough--greybeard or el Deano has got to be among the toughest DBR participants have faced in some time.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, D.C.

    On Flops

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    I hate flops. Dean Smith invented them, you guys do know that. Flopping and four corners have no part in the great game. They took away the four corners with the shot clock. They should take away the flop/charge--the most irritating call the game has ever known. Course, you guys can disagree and continue to honor el Deano.

    Some choices are tough--greybeard or el Deano has got to be among the toughest DBR participants have faced in some time.
    I don't like flops either, but at the same time the refs need to call a charge when the defensive player has position. Unfortunately, if you leave your feet, they often won't call the charge. If the refs called it right, there'd be no need to flop. So it's one more thing we can blame on the refs.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by hughgs View Post
    I'll comment as a someone who played a different sport that also required diving on the floor, volleyball. As someone who did a lot of diving it was simply what you did if you thought there was the slightest chance of getting the ball. And I thought I could get to every ball. There's no thinking, there's only the ball. And the difference between my defense and someone else who didn't dive for balls was evident as soon as play started.
    Who-ha!

    As another former voleyballer and an ultimate frisbee player, I can add that diving is a habit that one gets into, and the main reason for it is to go for balls that might be within reach. Sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. But the more you dive, the more likely you are to get the ball each time.

    I did see freshman diving a lot last night, but I attributed that to learning curve. They will get the hang of its things move on.

    AS for the meta-conversation here, I don't think the mods were trying to shut you up RockChalk, but rather they anticipated a harsh reaction to your post.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by MChambers View Post
    I don't like flops either, but at the same time the refs need to call a charge when the defensive player has position. Unfortunately, if you leave your feet, they often won't call the charge. If the refs called it right, there'd be no need to flop. So it's one more thing we can blame on the refs.
    Actually, I see it as quite the reverse. It's much harder for the officials to officiate a charge, because players have been taught to flop, and the officials know that.

    I also disagree with the generalization that the officials "often" don't call the charge if the player leaves their feet. I see it called quite often (case in point Scheyer's charge drawn in transition where his right foot was moving when contact was made), much to the chagrin of fans and coaches who don't understand the concept of defensive position.

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