MBB: NC State 88, Duke 66 Post-Game Thread

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I get the sense from K’s presser that he saw this coming almost immediately after the game started and that, while he certainly wanted and tried to win, he was also accepting of the fact that we had no shot and felt he could use this arse whipping as a wake-up call/teaching moment. We’ll see.

[Saratoga2]

Paraphrasing K... they wanted it more, we didn’t play strong, we got our butts beat.

I am not a believer in wanting it more. Too vague and often obscures the root cause of the problem(s) that were evident during the game.

[Acymetric]

Is that potentially a historic flip from massive blowout to getting massively blown out?

[bundabergdevil]

Is that potentially a historic flip from massive blowout to getting massively blown out?

Sometimes we make our own Kool-Aid and drink it, too.

[CDu]

I"m sorry, but this is the opposite of the truth. NCSU made 11 layups/dunks and missed 16, for a percentage of 40.7%. That's about as inefficient as a high-major program can get (for comparison's sake, State has averaged 62.3% at the rim for the season).

For the same reason, I disagree with those who say the PNR killed us, because State was very inefficient at the rim.

I disagree, on several counts:
1. Looking only at total layups taken has little link to shots off PNR.
2. It also ignores fouls drawn off PNR.
3. It also omits the second-chance points created by the defensive breakdown leaving us out of position for rebounds (part of why a mediocre OReb team thrived on the offensive glass against us).
4. It wasn’t just the success rate on layups off PNR, it was how easy the looks they were getting.
5. It wasn’t just rolls off the high ball screens. They also torched our bigs on jumpers when they got iso’d off those picks.

And for those who keep harping on the turnovers, admittedly there were a couple egregious ones but for the game we only turned it over 13 times. As a percentage of possessions, this was our 13th best offensive turnover performance out of 26 games, and as a total we average 13.5 turnovers per game. In other words, we turned it over in this game about the same (possibly a little better) than our season average.

The problem was that they were largely unforced. This State team doesn’t sell out to force turnovers. So most of those turnovers were just lack of poise

[weezie]

I am not a believer in wanting it more. Too vague and often obscures the root cause of the problem(s) that were evident during the game.

Amen to this. Last night we saw the return of the freshmen. Bigger, stronger wolvies had their way with us. Our guards were bouncing off the picks. Duke couldn't stop long enough to gather their thoughts much less press the entire game.

A few minutes of zone might have slowed state down a bit. Less press might have made them consider their shots a second longer and wobbled them more.

We sure stood around a lot on offense too, watching the "NOT" plays develop.

Ah well, I'm hoping this is similar to the hoo game in what, 1991?

[jv001]

Some things Coach K commented on after the game:
NC State played great and Duke was not competitive. He said we had won 22 games with 12 conference wins and last night we were not hungry. State was because like many ACC teams they needed a win. He said obviously we didn't think we needed the win. He said last night State was an elite team and their fans were great but the State players made the crowd great. He also said it was our worst game and State didn't take us out of the game because we were never in it.

Coach K gave the Wolfpack lots of credit but he was very disappointed in his team.

My thoughts. This team scares me because this is not the first time they have come out flat. Most of the time they have recovered but a few times they have not. In tournament games, this could be deadly. No team is going to feel sorry for Duke University. On the contrary, they want to be the team that knocks the big bad Dukies out of the tournament. It seems we have one good ball handler in Tre. Tre is the only consistent creator on offense. Moore tries to be but his handle is suspect and his decision making is not very good. We only had 13 turnovers last night but that wasn't the whole story because some of the bad passes were not turnovers but led to a bad shot or deflection that where we retained possession. But of the 13 turnovers, most were just stupid passes or loss of the ball that were not caused by the defense. Alex, Cassius, Wendell and Jordan looked to be in another world last night. I'm anxious to see how the team responds to this beat down. Not so much against VT but at Wake and at the HOOS. Those two road games will give us a good idea of how we respond. I'm pretty sure the coaching staff will be in the guys faces the next couple of days.

GoDuke!

[HereBeforeCoachK]

Amen to this. Last night we saw the return of the freshmen. Bigger, stronger wolvies had their way with us. Our guards were bouncing off the picks. Duke couldn't stop long enough to gather their thoughts much less press the entire game.

A few minutes of zone might have slowed state down a bit. Less press might have made them consider their shots a second longer and wobbled them more.

We sure stood around a lot on offense too, watching the "NOT" plays develop.

Ah well, I'm hoping this is similar to the hoo game in what, 1991?

Uh, I think that the concepts in bold are in fact directly related to "wanting it more" or not.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I am not a believer in wanting it more. Too vague and often obscures the root cause of the problem(s) that were evident during the game.

I am a huge believer in wanting it more. The difference in the size, speed and strength among all P5 athletes is relatively little...more or less motivation absolutely makes a huge difference. If this were not the case, you would almost never see upsets or wildly inconsistent results. Wanting it more, intensity, hustle, etc are all related concepts.

[Saratoga2]

I disagree, on several counts:
1. Looking only at total layups taken has little link to shots off PNR.
2. It also ignores fouls drawn off PNR.
3. It also omits the second-chance points created by the defensive breakdown leaving us out of position for rebounds (part of why a mediocre OReb team thrived on the offensive glass against us).
4. It wasn’t just the success rate on layups off PNR, it was how easy the looks they were getting.
5. It wasn’t just rolls off the high ball screens. They also torched our bigs on jumpers when they got iso’d off those picks.

I tend to agree. Teams that have spread the floor and have quality guards have used the PNR to get into our interior defense and our bigs have been unable to stop shots without fouling a lot. We don't pack our defense in, perhaps in an effort to slow down the three point shooting. That didn't work so well either. We made no adjustments other than personnel changes last night. We have had problems all year with teams that play us the way NCst did last night.

The problem was that they were largely unforced. This State team doesn’t sell out to force turnovers. So most of those turnovers were just lack of poise

While the number of TO's weren't ultra high, so many of them were careless passes. It wasn't confined to one player but seemed to apply to AOC, Stanley, Moore and others. State is quick and played the passing lanes and also we seemed to have an edict to get the ball into Vernon and by golly we tried to make passes that weren't there.

Our offense was either Tre going one on one or Vernon getting the ball inside. Bothgot tired. Tre's needs to invollve others in the scoring as we need more balance. It has got to come from coach K to make that happen. I know the guys didn't shoot well but we have to try to get them involved. Stnaley, Hurt, AOC and perhaps Moore need more involvement. Hurt seems a defensive liability and Moore is sound defensively but kind of raw offensive player so we have to expect the involved players will make mistakes, but we do need to stay with them.

As far as FT shooting, was it the crowd that bothered us or did we not practice FT shooting. Hard to imagine such a bad performance.

[jv001]

I am a huge believer in wanting it more. The difference in the size, speed and strength among all P5 athletes is relatively little...more or less motivation absolutely makes a huge difference. If this were not the case, you would almost never see upsets or wildly inconsistent results. Wanting it more, intensity, hustle, etc are all related concepts.

It sounded like Coach K thinks the same way in his post game comments. Not hungry, State needed the win and the Duke players obviously didn't. Of course wanting it more is a real thing. Look at the hustle plays of former Duke players; Winslow, Singler, & Grayson. the ice water in your veins of one Christian Laettner, Shane, Hurley, Jason Williams. I think Coach K is waiting to see who wants it more from this team.

GoDuke!

[sagegrouse]

If not for a late 3 by Goldwire, our 3rd leading scorer for this particular game would have had 4 points. I can’t recall another game in which our 3rd leading scorer for the game had such a low total. Putrid offense tonight for sure.

No one wanted the ball except Tre and Vernon. Well, Wendell did -- but he had a string of awful possessions that more than offset his rebounds. I am not sure why several even got on the bus to Raleigh. We may see some changes in the lineup.

[WakeDevil]

Is that potentially a historic flip from massive blowout to getting massively blown out?

I am assigning this project to you. Report due on Saturday.

[DukieInBrasil]

that was embarrassing. Good for the wolfies, they may have salvaged their season, although they still have several more games they have to win to make the Dance.
This Duke team still hasn't figured how to show up every game. The pre-game interview that Cassius and Tre gave with them talking about showing up right from the whistle and playing tough turned out to be the opposite of what actually happened. Daniels and Johnson just abused the whole team, but especially the guards.
After the tantalizing display Duke got from Matthew Hurt the past couple of games, he was incapable of providing much of value vs the Pack. Well, honestly, the only guy who provided much value was Vernon.
On to the next one...

[Acymetric]

No one wanted the ball except Tre and Vernon. Well, Wendell did -- but he had a string of awful possessions that more than offset his rebounds. I am not sure why several even got on the bus to Raleigh. We may see some changes in the lineup.

Speaking of Tre, can someone please get him to stop those rushed pull-up 3's when bringing the ball up the court? I think he's made like one of those, ever. Feels like it happens at least once or twice a game, not a good shot. I've been complaining about it since he did it 3-4 times against unc.

[DukeDevilDeb]

Someone remind me of when we lost to Georgetown and NCSU and then won the championship, please.

And also the year we lost to State and Miami in a row and won a championship. I'm distressed at the fact that no one except Carey and Jones scored more that 4 points. I know the box score says that Jordan scored 7, but 3 of those came on a meaningless shot at the end of the game. I didn't see a single alley-oop. I didn't see a pass inside and then back out again for a 3.

And our defense... oh my God... nothing you can do about the half-court shot right before half time. But honestly, if we were playing our usual defensive game, we would have winced at that shot and gone on. We couldn't stop anyone. We finally get 3 fouls on their shot blocker, he goes out, we don't try any shots to block.

Carey: 27
Jones: 17


Goldwire: 7

Rest of the team combined: 15!

Carey outscored the combined totals of everyone on the team not named Jones. Really? Did anyone see the bench? They looked like they were napping.

Sigh. Next game. Move on.

[CDu]

Speaking of Tre, can someone please get him to stop those rushed pull-up 3's when bringing the ball up the court? I think he's made like one of those, ever. Feels like it happens at least once or twice a game, not a good shot. I've been complaining about it since he did it 3-4 times against unc.

To be fair, he did hit two of those last night. Not saying that it is a good shot to take. But it's not like he hits an unreasonably low percentage of them.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

It sounded like Coach K thinks the same way in his post game comments. Not hungry, State needed the win and the Duke players obviously didn't. Of course wanting it more is a real thing. Look at the hustle plays of former Duke players; Winslow, Singler, & Grayson. the ice water in your veins of one Christian Laettner, Shane, Hurley, Jason Williams. I think Coach K is waiting to see who wants it more from this team.

GoDuke!

What you said in bold...is, or should be, patently obvious. Athletes don't run the identical speed, jump the identical height, have the identical strength, every single game. They don't process with identical mental sharpness game to game either. There are good games and bad games, good days and bad days...and motivation, intensity, ie, WANT TO is probably the biggest factor there. Other factors include biorhythms, rest, feeling a little sick or not, etc....but "want to" is way up the list.

[Acymetric]

I didn't see a single alley-oop

There was at least one oop from Tre to Carey.

[BD80]

I am not a believer in wanting it more. Too vague and often obscures the root cause of the problem(s) that were evident during the game.

I am a huge believer in wanting it more. The difference in the size, speed and strength among all P5 athletes is relatively little...more or less motivation absolutely makes a huge difference. If this were not the case, you would almost never see upsets or wildly inconsistent results. Wanting it more, intensity, hustle, etc are all related concepts.

Rocket: Question. What if I see something that I wanna take and it belongs to someone else?
Rhomann Dey: Then you will be arrested.
Rocket: But what if I want it more than the person who has it?
Rhomann Dey: Still illegal.
Rocket: That doesn't follow. No, I want it more, sir. Do you understand me?