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Thread: Dear DBR

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Central, SC

    Final thought

    At the risk of returning to the topic, I received a number of private messages from people who have felt that they have been treated poorly by others on the board and in some cases identified those posters. I think, like many organizations, DBR has developed sort of an "establishment" population that feels only certain beliefs/theories, etc. are valid and that population discourages different theories, even if posted within the established guidelines. I hope that I have never done that and I will do my best to never do so. I will add one other thing: just because someone shares concerns about the team, it doesn't mean that they don't support the Blue Devils. I have been a fan for about 60 years but I will also express frustration when I see poor fundamental basketball. And I will never call out an individual player; however, I will call out poor free throw shooting, for example. Stay safe and well everyone. Let's Go Duke!

  2. #82
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    New York, NY
    Quote Originally Posted by Natty_B View Post
    There is certainly a Mean Girls vibe to some posters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skydog View Post
    I see a couple of different dynamics going on:

    There are posters who emotionally overreact, lose all balance, and bash the team and players and/or predict doom and gloom any time the current result isn't to their liking. Their over-the-top negativity in both the chat room and post-loss threads gets tiresome fast.

    There are other posters who go in the opposite direction and overreact any time a poster is at all critical of a player, the team or the coach. Even specific and reasoned criticisms are met with hostile sarcasm along the line of “so, you think you are smarter than the coach who does this for a living?” Some posters seem to automatically assume that any criticism of the team comes from an emotional overreaction like described above. But that just isn't true.

    I try to read around the first group of posters but sometimes I can't stop myself from calling them out. And as an overly analytical type, I often find myself having to defend myself against the second type who come after me when I say anything critical, even if the criticism is specific and based on observable examples and/or data. The second type of posters seem to equate all criticism with disloyalty, a view I disagree with completely.

    I don't know the answer to how one should deal with these dynamics. My approach so far is to sporadically speak up if I think someone is repeatedly bashing the team or the players excessively. I will also stand up for myself if I think someone is bashing me for pointing out specific flaws I think I see in a player, coach or strategy. I don't know if this puts me in the class that peteandpete is talking about. At least I don't tell posters they should go elsewhere.

    But I do sympathize with the sentiment from time to time!
    Agree with these. It feels like it's moved more in this direction over the years (decades, eesh). Maybe also a function of societal drift.

    There are a subset of posters that take a stance that their view is the right one and other views are simply wrong and must be corrected. One of the most difficult dynamics is that this subset doesn't see this in themselves or in the tone of their posts. It moves the vibe of a lot of threads/discussions from "reasonable discussions at your local bar" to "talking down". Personally, my once-very-frequent posting has become less so as a result.

    Also, for the record, numbers never lie but interpretations of them do (and even their creation can). I work in finance, I see it every day of my life. Sometimes experience and gut feels are important - but when posters offer those takes they are often quickly overrun. Just my two cents.

    DBR is a great place on balance, but there's always room for improvement.

    - Chillin

  3. #83
    I also am interested in another sports team that is supported through an interesting web site. Unfortunately, on that web site there is a poster who is obsessive and averages 30 + additions to the string a day. While the messages are fairly comprehensive and researched, the poster is obsessive, to the degree which borders on spectrum behavior. I rarely go to the site these days since the poster tends to monopolize discussion. Fortunately, DBR is much more balanced and I enjoy reading the many different points of view expressed. To me the site is well run and avoids contentious behavior rather well.

  4. #84
    Admittedly, we are entering a different phase of fandom that many of us have never experienced.

    While there have been moments of frustration with Coach K and his recruiting/strategy etc, his performance was largely above reproach. There was definitely a tone of "hey, he's the best, we shouldn't second guess him" that was understandable to a degree.

    95% of all the college programs have a part of their dialogue in the "bar room chat" about "we need to change coaches" or "we will never win as long as Coach keeps XYZ."

    We all like Scheyer and are hoping for the best, but we will absolutely be hearing more coaching criticism from all sides. Some of it will be warranted, some of it will be absurd.

    Until Jon starts piling up the hardware, he will have to take the slings and arrows.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBlue View Post
    Perhaps I shouldn't be so judgmental. It's surprising the things I've put in my mouth after the age of maturity. There was a product called Potted Meat, made by Armor that I lived on in college. The ingredient list included "meat by-product with binder".
    I sense the beginning of a "Yum! Potted Meat" thread
    Rich
    "Failure is Not a Destination"
    Coach K on the Dan Patrick Show, December 22, 2016

  6. #86
    The negativity annoys the crap out of me. Other things that annoy the crap out of me are people boldly stating who should play, from where those who are playing should shoot, what defense Duke should play, and who is a good defender (most annoying). I was a pretty good high school basketball player. All conference and all regional level and got division 2 looks until an ACL injury. I played one year Junior College before realizing I had capped out my athletic career. My father coached high school basketball for 31 years, played D1, went to multiple state championship games as a player and coach and won a state title. And I don't know how many minutes everyone should play, what defense Duke should play. I'm not qualified to make those types of determinations. I don't think anyone on here is. I can tell what we are in. What sets on offense and defense. If we are icing or hedging ball screens. And I generally understand why we are choosing a particular set. And it does annoy me to hear people boldly state that they know these things. In the last Olympics somebody posted an article from a sports writer that said the game had passed Pop by. I made the statement that this writer was unqualified to make that determination because he didn't understand basketball enough. Jason actually called me out and said I should have to justify that. I backed down because I don't care enough to make the argument. But that dude didn't know enough to make that determination. Not many people do. And none of them are on here. Including me.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    But that dude didn't know enough to make that determination. Not many people do. And none of them are on here. Including me.
    ClemmonsDevil, I love you brother, but you are interneting wrong. You can say someone else doesn't know enough to make an argument, but you NEVER acknowledge that you yourself don't know enough.

    Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    ClemmonsDevil, I love you brother, but you are interneting wrong. You can say someone else doesn't know enough to make an argument, but you NEVER acknowledge that you yourself don't know enough.

    Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.
    I'm painfully aware of my shortcomings.

  9. #89
    scottdude8's Avatar
    scottdude8 is offline Moderator, Contributor, Zoubek disciple, and resident Wolverine
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Storrs, CT
    I have no idea whether I'm one of the posters that's the target of some of this frustration, but if I am I'm authentically sorry. Personally, my intention is never to "shut down" alternative viewpoints (after all, we're talking about a sports team, not solving world hunger, haha), but I understand how things could sometimes be interpreted that way. My intention is only ever to:

    1) Call out clear troll-ish behavior when we see it. Sometimes this is correlated with "alternative viewpoints" for obvious reasons, so I can see how this can get conflated at quick glance.
    2) Call out behavior that reflects poorly on the Duke fanbase. This is all about tone: there's a difference between saying, "I'm disappointed in this team right now, and anxious about our postseason prospects" and saying "The season is over, Scheyer is in over is head and the program is nosediving fast". More posts than we'd like to admit have been closer to that latter, cartoonish example than we'd like to admit, and that's not a good look for us as fans.
    3) Call out behavior that doesn't adhere to DBR standards. Again, this sometimes correlates with "alternative viewpoints". But there's a reason DBR has a "no venting/bashing" policy post game... like it or not, those are the rules of this privately run forum. Following those basic guidelines helps to maintain the community/family atmosphere around here and prevent it from devolving into just another online fan site, or in a worst-case scenario IC.

    If I ever post anything that rubs someone the wrong way, please PM me to let me know. Oftentimes these things can go unnoticed because the "tone" you have in your mind as you type something often isn't the "tone" other people read it in... it's a problem of text-based communication. But everyone needs to remember the reverse is also true. If you feel the need to express your frustration with the team's performance, or your sincere concerns about Coach Scheyer's aptitude for this job, take a second to think about how the post might read to someone who isn't in your headspace... and, if necessary, spell out the nuance/context so that we can get as close as we can to that as we read your posts.

    This season has been more challenging that many of us expected, although we honestly probably should have seen it coming... moving on from Coach K was never going to be perfectly smooth. Correspondingly, we're all had moments on the board where we act out of character. I hope moving forward we can continue to give each other the benefit of the doubt when these moments occur, assuming of course that the basic level of civility on the board remains unperturbed.
    Scott Rich on the front page

    Trinity BS 2012; University of Michigan PhD 2018
    Duke Chronicle, Sports Online Editor: 2010-2012
    K-Ville Blue Tenting 2009-2012

    Unofficial Brian Zoubek Biographer
    If you have questions about Michigan Basketball/Football, I'm your man!

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    I was going to quote other posters but instead wanted to give a general observation about criticisms of college players and coaches....

    I was watching an NBA game with my adult kids the other day and they said that everything was "too perfect". A player gets open and they hit the shot. A little guy drives the lane and the big guy knows how to block the shot without fouling and it leads to a fast break that is perfectly executed. My kids said this was boring and we switched to a college game.

    On every play we did not know what to expect since the players are still learning the game and improving their skill sets. In addition, choices made by coaches looked good or bad based on the randomness of the player's "play". This is what makes college basketball fun....

    To give you some examples from the ND game to emphasize this...

    Coach S looks like a genius to get Mark M. a 3 ptr at the end of the game because Mark made the shot.
    Coach S does not know what he is doing because Dane Goodwin goes all "Bootsie Thorton" and hits every off-balanced fade-away he throws at the basket.

    If this were the pros...we would have no doubt that an open LeBron James would hit the 3 ptr and we would be falling asleep watching Seth Curry throw in shots from all over the floor.

    The unpredictability of the college game is what we love and discussing who should get credit / blame for the unpredictable nature of the game is what keeps us coming back to DBR.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by scottdude8 View Post
    I have no idea whether I'm one of the posters that's the target of some of this frustration, but if I am I'm authentically sorry. Personally, my intention is never to "shut down" alternative viewpoints (after all, we're talking about a sports team, not solving world hunger, haha), but I understand how things could sometimes be interpreted that way. My intention is only ever to:

    1) Call out clear troll-ish behavior when we see it. Sometimes this is correlated with "alternative viewpoints" for obvious reasons, so I can see how this can get conflated at quick glance.
    2) Call out behavior that reflects poorly on the Duke fanbase. This is all about tone: there's a difference between saying, "I'm disappointed in this team right now, and anxious about our postseason prospects" and saying "The season is over, Scheyer is in over is head and the program is nosediving fast". More posts than we'd like to admit have been closer to that latter, cartoonish example than we'd like to admit, and that's not a good look for us as fans.
    3) Call out behavior that doesn't adhere to DBR standards. Again, this sometimes correlates with "alternative viewpoints". But there's a reason DBR has a "no venting/bashing" policy post game... like it or not, those are the rules of this privately run forum. Following those basic guidelines helps to maintain the community/family atmosphere around here and prevent it from devolving into just another online fan site, or in a worst-case scenario IC.

    If I ever post anything that rubs someone the wrong way, please PM me to let me know. Oftentimes these things can go unnoticed because the "tone" you have in your mind as you type something often isn't the "tone" other people read it in... it's a problem of text-based communication. But everyone needs to remember the reverse is also true. If you feel the need to express your frustration with the team's performance, or your sincere concerns about Coach Scheyer's aptitude for this job, take a second to think about how the post might read to someone who isn't in your headspace... and, if necessary, spell out the nuance/context so that we can get as close as we can to that as we read your posts.

    This season has been more challenging that many of us expected, although we honestly probably should have seen it coming... moving on from Coach K was never going to be perfectly smooth. Correspondingly, we're all had moments on the board where we act out of character. I hope moving forward we can continue to give each other the benefit of the doubt when these moments occur, assuming of course that the basic level of civility on the board remains unperturbed.
    One reason I'm glad I'm not a moderator (to be clear, I have not been nominated, nor would I serve) is that I can point out to someone that their opinion sucks.

    I try to be slightly more diplomatic than that, but if the "bar" (so to speak) is pub discourse over a pint, I'm sure as heck not going to let someone denigrate my coach/players/program without some push back.

    For better or worse, DBR does aspire to a higher level of discourse than any other sports board I've ever been on. Sometimes I wish I could tell dirty jokes, tell you how I REALLY feel about politics, or type and screed littered with angry words about the refs.

    But this isn't the place for any of those things and it doesn't have to be. DBR has no obligation to be all things for all people.

  12. #92
    Well, I get weary of the Scheyer bashing. Who expected that Scheyer would come out of the gate equalling the success of the Greatest Hoops Coach of All Time?

    If we compare Krzyzewski’s and Scheyer’s first seasons at Duke it’s no contest. Plus, K wasn’t a rookie coach, plus he inherited starters Banks, Dennard and Vince Taylor.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by peteandpete View Post
    At the risk of returning to the topic, I received a number of private messages from people who have felt that they have been treated poorly by others on the board and in some cases identified those posters. I think, like many organizations, DBR has developed sort of an "establishment" population that feels only certain beliefs/theories, etc. are valid and that population discourages different theories, even if posted within the established guidelines. I hope that I have never done that and I will do my best to never do so. I will add one other thing: just because someone shares concerns about the team, it doesn't mean that they don't support the Blue Devils. I have been a fan for about 60 years but I will also express frustration when I see poor fundamental basketball. And I will never call out an individual player; however, I will call out poor free throw shooting, for example. Stay safe and well everyone. Let's Go Duke!
    Great post. I didn’t PM you, but can understand why others did so.

    I tend to have lower expectations for the program (K or Scheyer) and sometimes feel those expectations shouldn’t be expressed (some of my “pessimism” is based on my dislike for perpetual OAD rosters). I’m fine with posters believing we will win out from here, but also understand posters that still not convinced we make the tourney. Just because an individual doesn’t share eternal optimism, doesn’t mean he/she is trolling. Most of us love Duke b-ball but some are more naturally inclined to expect the worst and then thrilled with unanticipated victories.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Nov 2022
    Location
    Atlanta
    Quote Originally Posted by ClemmonsDevil View Post
    The negativity annoys the crap out of me. Other things that annoy the crap out of me are people boldly stating who should play, from where those who are playing should shoot, what defense Duke should play, and who is a good defender (most annoying). I was a pretty good high school basketball player. All conference and all regional level and got division 2 looks until an ACL injury. I played one year Junior College before realizing I had capped out my athletic career. My father coached high school basketball for 31 years, played D1, went to multiple state championship games as a player and coach and won a state title. And I don't know how many minutes everyone should play, what defense Duke should play. I'm not qualified to make those types of determinations. I don't think anyone on here is. I can tell what we are in. What sets on offense and defense. If we are icing or hedging ball screens. And I generally understand why we are choosing a particular set. And it does annoy me to hear people boldly state that they know these things. In the last Olympics somebody posted an article from a sports writer that said the game had passed Pop by. I made the statement that this writer was unqualified to make that determination because he didn't understand basketball enough. Jason actually called me out and said I should have to justify that. I backed down because I don't care enough to make the argument. But that dude didn't know enough to make that determination. Not many people do. And none of them are on here. Including me.
    I think we have to remember that this is an internet forum. I think it's entirely appropriate for us to talk about who we think should play and what types of offenses and defenses we should run. I think most everyone here is pretty sane and understands that none of us comes close to the basketball knowledge of a D1 head coach. We're not seeing the players in practice. Most of us haven't devoted our lives to learning the game. But... none of us is going to call Coach Scheyer and advise him on what to do differently the next game. I think it's still completely fair game for us to talk about it amongst ourselves on here. I think that's just part of sports discussions among sports fans. Most of the time we think that the coach needs to do something differently, we will eventually be proven wrong. Every once in a while, you might be proven right. I don't really see any harm in that.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    I don’t dislike any posters here, but I really hate elephants.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I don’t dislike any posters here, but I really hate elephants.
    I'm the opposite.,
    "This is the best of all possible worlds."
    Dr. Pangloss - Candide

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    One reason I'm glad I'm not a moderator (to be clear, I have not been nominated, nor would I serve) is that I can point out to someone that their opinion sucks.
    Don't go all LBJ on us.
    Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote. - George Jean Nathan

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by chrishoke View Post
    I'm the opposite.,
    Yes, your pro-pachyderm agenda is pretty obvious.

  19. #99
    I don't know what any of this is about, all of my posts are joyful and delightful, full of wit and elegance.

    Now excuse me while I go listen to some George Strait..."I got some oceanfront property...."

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by bshrader View Post
    I don't know what any of this is about, all of my posts are joyful and delightful, full of wit and elegance.

    Now excuse me while I go listen to some George Strait..."I got some oceanfront property..."
    Thanks for that post bshrader. A breath of fresh air and sarcasm! While we’re at it, let’s all just discuss and cheer our guys on and enjoy the ride this season!

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