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  1. #1041
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    If the best news happens - Filipowski returns - then no, not worried at all.

    If Flip goes pro, there is the portal.

    Until we hear otherwise, Young and Reeves are there.

    Not a concern but could be a slight one until the portal season is over.
    Yep, agreed. Very much in the “not concerned yet” camp. If Flip goes pro and we strike out in the portal? Then yes, I would have some concerns. But there are still a few bridges to cross between here and there.

  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
    I'm more aligned with CDu on this -- other than Puff and maybe Styles, none of the other guys they are losing would really have been in line to play much next year or not been a cancer in the locker room (Love). I think we're dancing on UNC's grave much too soon.
    I'm certainly not dancing on their grave, as I expect they will bounce back at some point, but I think something that is getting lost in translation here is the exact facet that Jon mentioned he wants to bring to our program, and that is continuity. To me, having a mass exodus (and I would consider 6 players into the portal a mass exodus) indicates one of two things, or both things:

    1) There's a lack of communication in the program in regards to transparency. Because there has to have been a breakdown in communication in what was projected for these players and what really materialized.

    2) There's a lack of understanding in the culture in the program in whatever Hubert is building, or attempting to build.

    It isnt simply that theyre losing mediocre players that were bench depth that they may have had a chance to develop into some meaningful players (i.e Nickel, Puff, mayybbe Styles). It's what this mass exodus may indicate for Carolina, both in continuity and culture. Neither indicate a strong culture and neither indicate there is continuity within the program.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    Yes, a positive outcome from our point of view. It is also a multi-year problem for them and a bigger perceptual problem to potential recruits and transfers.
    This. This is the double-edged sword Carolina is facing currently. Either the recruit younger guys from the portal who they may have to groom and prepare who may not be ready to immediately contribute, or you recruit 5th year grad guys who can help you immediately, but leave you short on the continuity piece year to year.

  4. #1044
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    Yes, a positive outcome from our point of view. It is also a multi-year problem for them and a bigger perceptual problem to potential recruits and transfers.
    I don’t see it as a multi-year problem, or at the very worst not a meaningful problem.

    Three of those 6 guys would only have been there one more year, and only 2 were even going to play. So obviously they aren’t a multi-year problem. Another was never going to play for UNC as he wasn’t good enough. So we are talking about two guys (sophomore Nickel and junior Styles). It is possible that one or both of them could be useful in 2 years, but not a given. And it is likely that either will be easily replaced via the portal anyway.

    The big hit is next year, and will likely require an impact transfer to address. Everything thereafter is pretty minimal and should be easily replaceable.

  5. #1045
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    Nov 2022
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    Atlanta
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I don’t see it as a multi-year problem, or at the very worst not a meaningful problem.

    Three of those 6 guys would only have been there one more year, and only 2 were even going to play. So obviously they aren’t a multi-year problem. Another was never going to play for UNC as he wasn’t good enough. So we are talking about two guys (sophomore Nickel and junior Styles). It is possible that one or both of them could be useful in 2 years, but not a given. And it is likely that either will be easily replaced via the portal anyway.

    The big hit is next year, and will likely require an impact transfer to address. Everything thereafter is pretty minimal and should be easily replaceable.
    I think it's a problem for them. Nickel, Styles for sure. McKoy was a guy who played for Virginia, but never got significant minutes at UNC. So, that really means that they had a hole to fill the previous year and brought in the wrong guy. All part of the same problem. Puff Johnson is your next man up to move into the starting lineup. He's gone. So, no they're not all freshmen and sophomores that they lost. But they lost bench players all over the place. Plus 2 starters who don't have eligibility. 8 players total. That's a big deal. If that happened with Duke, we'd be pretty devastated, but try to find hope that we'd reload with a freshman class full of top talent. UNC's freshman class next year isn't anything special. They're only hope is to reload through the transfer portal. If you reload with guys with just 1 year of eligibility left, you run into a similar problem next year where you lose them and Bacot (and possibly Davis). Then, you're just building a cycle of reloading with transfers or freshmen every year. That's the kind of thing most Duke fans are excited about getting away from. The difference is that when we do it, we're consistently getting top recruiting classes. Hubert is hoping to just get one big bang in 2024 that's going to hopefully turn things around for him.

  6. #1046
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by bshrader View Post
    I'm certainly not dancing on their grave, as I expect they will bounce back at some point, but I think something that is getting lost in translation here is the exact facet that Jon mentioned he wants to bring to our program, and that is continuity. To me, having a mass exodus (and I would consider 6 players into the portal a mass exodus) indicates one of two things, or both things:

    1) There's a lack of communication in the program in regards to transparency. Because there has to have been a breakdown in communication in what was projected for these players and what really materialized.

    2) There's a lack of understanding in the culture in the program in whatever Hubert is building, or attempting to build.

    It isnt simply that theyre losing mediocre players that were bench depth that they may have had a chance to develop into some meaningful players (i.e Nickel, Puff, mayybbe Styles). It's what this mass exodus may indicate for Carolina, both in continuity and culture. Neither indicate a strong culture and neither indicate there is continuity within the program.
    I'm not sure I see it as quite the cultural issue. One of those guys (McKoy) was going to be a 5th year senior who had no role at UNC. Another (Shaver) was never going to play for UNC, as he'd played just 6 minutes in two years there. Styles wasn't looking likely to play as he was behind Davis, Trimble, and Dunn next year and with Ian Jackson on the horizon. It seems like he might have just been overmatched at UNC. So we're down to Love, Johnson, and Nickel.

    Nickel was in the range of guys that often transfer out of high-profile programs to next-tier (or lower) programs.

    Basically, I think it is a combination of a few things: (1) a star player whose career hasn't played out like he thought and wants a new, clean slate (whether that be as a pro or at another school); (2) a roster that was in hindsight too crowded this year with too many guys in the backup range and not enough clear starters; and (3) recognition that the team was/is going to bring in transfers to address #2.

  7. #1047
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Southgate0809 View Post
    I think it's a problem for them. Nickel, Styles for sure. McKoy was a guy who played for Virginia, but never got significant minutes at UNC. So, that really means that they had a hole to fill the previous year and brought in the wrong guy. All part of the same problem. Puff Johnson is your next man up to move into the starting lineup. He's gone. So, no they're not all freshmen and sophomores that they lost. But they lost bench players all over the place. Plus 2 starters who don't have eligibility. 8 players total. That's a big deal. If that happened with Duke, we'd be pretty devastated, but try to find hope that we'd reload with a freshman class full of top talent. UNC's freshman class next year isn't anything special. They're only hope is to reload through the transfer portal. If you reload with guys with just 1 year of eligibility left, you run into a similar problem next year where you lose them and Bacot (and possibly Davis). Then, you're just building a cycle of reloading with transfers or freshmen every year. That's the kind of thing most Duke fans are excited about getting away from. The difference is that when we do it, we're consistently getting top recruiting classes. Hubert is hoping to just get one big bang in 2024 that's going to hopefully turn things around for him.
    I said I don't think it's a multi-year problem (i.e., not a multi-year problem moving forward). There is definitely an impact for next year with the losses of Love and Johnson. But there isn't a ton of reason to assume either guy would be there for 2 more years anyway. And McKoy will be a 5th-year senior next year, so obviously his absences isn't a multi-year impact. And Shaver was never going to play, so while a multi-year player his loss isn't a meaningful impact.

    As I said, it's a problem for them for NEXT year, not a multi-year problem.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I'm not sure I see it as quite the cultural issue. One of those guys (McKoy) was going to be a 5th year senior who had no role at UNC. Another (Shaver) was never going to play for UNC, as he'd played just 6 minutes in two years there. Styles wasn't looking likely to play as he was behind Davis, Trimble, and Dunn next year and with Ian Jackson on the horizon. It seems like he might have just been overmatched at UNC. So we're down to Love, Johnson, and Nickel.

    Nickel was in the range of guys that often transfer out of high-profile programs to next-tier (or lower) programs.

    Basically, I think it is a combination of a few things: (1) a star player whose career hasn't played out like he thought and wants a new, clean slate (whether that be as a pro or at another school); (2) a roster that was in hindsight too crowded this year with too many guys in the backup range and not enough clear starters; and (3) recognition that the team was/is going to bring in transfers to address #2.
    I dont have a paid subscription to The Athletic, but I believe Brendan Marks just released an article today about Carolina, basically a "what went wrong" kind of piece.

    I'd love to know the basic synopsis of the article.

    FWIW, over on IC coming from some people over there who have read it, they have mentioned that it really hits on a lack of leadership from the top (Hubert) and a huge lack of player accountability.

  9. #1049
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Seattle
    Quote Originally Posted by CameronDuke View Post
    Anyone worried about Duke not having a center next year?
    Like others mentioned before Stewart will be 6'9 230+ athletic bruiser in the post. We also have a 6'10 240lb 40-year-young YMCA terror. Also a 7'1 250lb promising backup in Reeves.

  10. #1050
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Dur'm
    Real question: Is Kyle an NBA four? He's seemingly made it clear in college that he sees himself at the four, and that's where he's played almost exclusively. But when you look at his skill set, he doesn't have NBA-level handles, and he doesn't have a great outside shot (yet). Would an NBA team humor his desire to play the four, or would he get shunted to the five whether he likes it or not? "You ain't a star, kid, and you're under contract. You'll play where we want you to play."

    I just wonder if Kyle might legitimately be in a rare situation where his developmental prospects are more in tune with his interests in college than they would be in the pros.

    It is also quite possible I'm just rationalizing because I want him to stay.

  11. #1051
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    Nov 2022
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    Atlanta
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I said I don't think it's a multi-year problem (i.e., not a multi-year problem moving forward). There is definitely an impact for next year with the losses of Love and Johnson. But there isn't a ton of reason to assume either guy would be there for 2 more years anyway. And McKoy will be a 5th-year senior next year, so obviously his absences isn't a multi-year impact. And Shaver was never going to play, so while a multi-year player his loss isn't a meaningful impact.

    As I said, it's a problem for them for NEXT year, not a multi-year problem.
    I think we'll have to wait and see. It depends if they're able to get transfers with multiple years of eligibility. It will also depend if they still have more players transfer out. It will also depend if their all-star 2024 class includes some one-and-dones. Reloading every year isn't a problem that UNC has had to deal with much.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by Phredd3 View Post
    Real question: Is Kyle an NBA four? He's seemingly made it clear in college that he sees himself at the four, and that's where he's played almost exclusively. But when you look at his skill set, he doesn't have NBA-level handles, and he doesn't have a great outside shot (yet). Would an NBA team humor his desire to play the four, or would he get shunted to the five whether he likes it or not? "You ain't a star, kid, and you're under contract. You'll play where we want you to play."

    I just wonder if Kyle might legitimately be in a rare situation where his developmental prospects are more in tune with his interests in college than they would be in the pros.

    It is also quite possible I'm just rationalizing because I want him to stay.
    He could be a great college player. I would be very surprised if he could be a very good NBA player. Some can be both but I don’t see it with Flip. The games are different. He likely will play like a Euro big near the basket- but he really needs to develop that inside game.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I don’t see it as a multi-year problem, or at the very worst not a meaningful problem.

    Three of those 6 guys would only have been there one more year, and only 2 were even going to play. So obviously they aren’t a multi-year problem. Another was never going to play for UNC as he wasn’t good enough. So we are talking about two guys (sophomore Nickel and junior Styles). It is possible that one or both of them could be useful in 2 years, but not a given. And it is likely that either will be easily replaced via the portal anyway.

    The big hit is next year, and will likely require an impact transfer to address. Everything thereafter is pretty minimal and should be easily replaceable.
    I feel like you are close to seeing this but not really grasping the full scope.

    It's a problem for next year. It's a problem for the year after that. It's a problem for them when they try to recruit guys through the portal and from high school.

    Hey, I noticed a lot of guys are leaving. Also, these other teams that want me to play for them have noted that you haven't played your bench despite having 11 guys that were in the RSCI top 100 in high school. What's up with that? If I commit to you, am I going to get any minutes? If I commit to you, how long before I can expect minutes?

    There's a reason a lot of top 50 types haven't committed to Tony Bennett over the years. He has offered those top 50 players, I promise you. They see the transfers. They see the years it takes to get on the court. The perception is out there, however true it is. And it it going to take a long time to fix it if they ever do.

  14. #1054
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by dukelifer View Post
    He could be a great college player. I would be very surprised if he could be a very good NBA player. Some can be both but I don’t see it with Flip. The games are different. He likely will play like a Euro big near the basket- but he really needs to develop that inside game.
    Our dude has size, strength and toughness -- and is only 19. I wouldn't be surprised if he has more of all three in a few years. Also, he was mobile enough to win the U18 3-on-3 world championship.

  15. #1055
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA.
    Don't we have another thread devoted entirely to UNC's current situation? Could y'all who are discussing UNC's situation in detail in THIS thread please take the conversation to its dedicated thread?

    I know there is always a lot of thread drift, and most of the time I'm ok with it, but in this case we already have a perfectly good thread for that.

  16. #1056
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    I feel like you are close to seeing this but not really grasping the full scope.

    It's a problem for next year. It's a problem for the year after that. It's a problem for them when they try to recruit guys through the portal and from high school.

    Hey, I noticed a lot of guys are leaving. Also, these other teams that want me to play for them have noted that you haven't played your bench despite having 11 guys that were in the RSCI top 100 in high school. What's up with that? If I commit to you, am I going to get any minutes? If I commit to you, how long before I can expect minutes?
    I understand your argument. I just don't agree with it. Or more specifically, I don't agree that it's a big problem beyond the 2023-24 season. UNC has had ONE year of mass transfers (this year), and it was a pretty specific circumstance. And again, 4 of those guys weren't even likely to be regulars. They were the #10-13 guys on the roster. Those types of guys are expected to transfer in this era. It's just that UNC happened to have 4 of them, whereas a lot of programs don't even use all 13 scholarships (because they know they can only play 9-10 guys at most).

    Johnson was a fringe rotation guy himself, who was forced into more playing time the past two years because UNC just didn't have any depth. And Love was an incredibly inconsistent player whose game didn't mesh well with others. When he was on, he could win you games by himself. When he was off (and that was often), he could sink the team. Really Love is the only remotely interesting case here, and a one-off case like this doesn't seem like a multi-year problem.

    And I think the questions you've listed simply aren't questions that 18-19 year old star basketball players are asking. As evidenced by the fact that Duke still gets recruits in the #30-100 range on the regular, even though those guys rarely play major minutes and often end up transferring.

    It's a problem for them this year that they won't have Love and Johnson, and those guys were in the top 6 or 7 of the rotation. They already appear to have replaced Nickel and Styles through the portal, and weren't going to play McKoy or Shaver anyway (so they are irrelevant).

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    There's a reason a lot of top 50 types haven't committed to Tony Bennett over the years. He has offered those top 50 players, I promise you. They see the transfers. They see the years it takes to get on the court. The perception is out there, however true it is. And it it going to take a long time to fix it if they ever do.
    I definitely don't agree with this. The reason why Bennett doesn't get a lot of top-50 recruits has little to do with transfers. He doesn't have a long history of having tons of transfers out. That's actually a more recent phenomenon, but at the same time he's gotten more top-50 type recruits recently than he did a decade ago. So if anything it's the exact opposite.

    The reason Bennett doesn't get a ton of top-50 recruits is because he runs a very specific program that ideally requires 2-3 years to learn. So he NEEDS program continuity. On top of that, he was at a program that wasn't a high-profile bball program until he built it back up. So combine those two things, and the best guys he used to get were fringe top-100 guys. And then he started winning, and by the mid/late-2010s he started landing top-50 type recruits.

    As for UNC's future? No idea. The sample size of Hubert Davis' career is too brief. He hasn't really had truly his own recruiting class come to UNC yet, so it's really hard to say what to expect from him. I wouldn't say it's looking incredibly promising. But I also wouldn't say this set of transfers is a multi-year problem for them.

  17. #1057
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    Nov 2007
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    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Don't we have another thread devoted entirely to UNC's current situation? Could y'all who are discussing UNC's situation in detail in THIS thread please take the conversation to its dedicated thread?

    I know there is always a lot of thread drift, and most of the time I'm ok with it, but in this case we already have a perfectly good thread for that.
    good but ultimately unsuccessful try, my good man!

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by bshrader View Post
    I dont have a paid subscription to The Athletic, but I believe Brendan Marks just released an article today about Carolina, basically a "what went wrong" kind of piece.

    I'd love to know the basic synopsis of the article.

    FWIW, over on IC coming from some people over there who have read it, they have mentioned that it really hits on a lack of leadership from the top (Hubert) and a huge lack of player accountability.
    It's an absolute puff piece, at best. Lots of quotes from Caleb Love's dad. But, it's nothing that any fan (Duke or UNC), didn't know already.

  19. #1059
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by rsvman View Post
    Don't we have another thread devoted entirely to UNC's current situation? Could y'all who are discussing UNC's situation in detail in THIS thread please take the conversation to its dedicated thread?

    I know there is always a lot of thread drift, and most of the time I'm ok with it, but in this case we already have a perfectly good thread for that.
    Apologies - I didn't see this until AFTER my last post. I won't post any more on this topic in this thread as you're right: it's totally unnecessary thread drift in this case.

  20. #1060
    Wonder if we'll hear another announcement tomorrow, or if the Duke media team wishes to space them out a bit more to capitalize and media attention?

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