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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Do we know this premise to be true? Has Zion admitted this?

    (Not really following the case, just asking)
    https://www.si.com/nba/2019/06/20/zi...duke-nba-draft

    Really good article laying out the facts of the Ford deal and the CAA deal. From June 2019 and doesn’t have any of the Duke crap that’s getting folks riled up
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by duke96 View Post
    Seems to me quite unfair to equate condemnation with suggesting bad decisions were made. I'm sure we all love Zion and are sympathetic to his plight in this situation. And I'm sure we all hope for the best outcome for that terrific kid. But that doesn't make it wrong to say he made a bad decision. As for the suggestion that people are relying on assumptions instead of known facts, is it disputed that Zion (a) signed a contract with one agent involving massive amounts of money and then (b) tried to get out of that contract and sign with another agent 6 weeks later, subjecting himself to a large lawsuit?

    If those facts are not disputed, then what might we learn in the future that would suggest that this pattern of events resulted from good decision making?

    Seems to me that, whatever might come out in the future, I think we know enough to say that unfortunately this was handled poorly. And surprisingly so given Zion's stature and Duke's significant experience in this arena.
    First of all, to be quite fair, I believe you did more than merely "suggest" that Zion "made a bad decision." You charged him flatly with "making a series of incredibly foolish choices," and then reiterated that these were "pretty clearly a foolish series of decisions." If someone similarly situated expressed that judgment about some of your business decisions -- basically calling you a fool -- I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to consider that a form of condemnation; and if that person broadcast their conclusion without knowledge of the specific circumstances under which you made those decisions, you might well regard it as quite unfair. (It merits noting that I'm not the only person posting in this thread who interpreted your comments as a denigration of Zion.)

    Second, in the same message, you stated that you were "very puzzled how Duke didn't help him make better choices," and then in a subsequent post you characterized this situation as "a generational prospect making a 9+ figure decision under the close guidance of a top-tier basketball program like Duke." (Emphasis added.) Since you deny that your opinion about Zion's decision making and Duke's role in that process rests on any assumptions, I'd be interested in learning more about the source and substance of your information regarding the "close guidance" Zion received from the Duke basketball program or Coach K individually when making his decisions in this matter. Correct me if I'm mistaken or if I missed the report, but so far as I'm aware there's been no indication that Zion ever conferred with anyone in the Duke basketball program before signing the contracts at issue in this litigation.

    Finally, you've said that you are "puzzled" by Zion's decisions to sign successive contracts with different agents, which you describe as "difficult to understand" and characterize as "unfathomable" and "baffling given the circumstances." But there's the rub: At this point, you can't possibly know the factual circumstances that prompted Zion to sign these contracts. It's certainly easy to say, when viewed in retrospect, that Zion made a "bad decision" or a "poor choice" to sign the first contract with Gina Ford. But I don't believe it's so difficult to comprehend how he could have been led to sign the contract when you consider his age and personality and the potential influence of family members.

    Haven't we all seen examples of young people who made bad decisions or poor choices because they trusted their family members, or wanted to please their family members, or simply didn't have the heart to say "No" when a family member asked them to do something? (I think Duke basketball fans can conjure up an example from recent history.) To me, at least, it requires no great leaps of the imagination to envision how such circumstances, and particularly the timing and manner of presentation, could have led to the unfortunate situation that now confronts Zion in this case. And though it now appears, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been unwise or even foolish for Zion to sign the first contract, I'd be hesitant without more information to disparage his actions as unfathomable or baffling.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Do we know this premise to be true? Has Zion admitted this?

    (Not really following the case, just asking)
    If it turned out to be the case that Zion did not in fact sign with Gina Ford and then shortly thereafter try to break that contract and sign with CAA then I would certainly retract every comment I have made about this situation!

    I'm not a lawyer, but it's hard for me to imagine how those basic facts (again, that Zion signed a contract with Gina Ford and then shortly thereafter sought to terminate that contract to sign with CAA) would not have been publicly disputed to this point if they weren't true. I imagine someone who has more closely studied the legal details could confirm that there is no dispute as to these simple facts. Far as I can tell, all the fighting has been about whether ore not there are legal technicalities that might render legally invalid the original contract.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    First of all, to be quite fair, I believe you did more than merely "suggest" that Zion "made a bad decision." You charged him flatly with "making a series of incredibly foolish choices," and then reiterated that these were "pretty clearly a foolish series of decisions." If someone similarly situated expressed that judgment about some of your business decisions -- basically calling you a fool -- I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to consider that a form of condemnation; and if that person broadcast their conclusion without knowledge of the specific circumstances under which you made those decisions, you might well regard it as quite unfair. (It merits noting that I'm not the only person posting in this thread who interpreted your comments as a denigration of Zion.)

    Second, in the same message, you stated that you were "very puzzled how Duke didn't help him make better choices," and then in a subsequent post you characterized this situation as "a generational prospect making a 9+ figure decision under the close guidance of a top-tier basketball program like Duke." (Emphasis added.) Since you deny that your opinion about Zion's decision making and Duke's role in that process rests on any assumptions, I'd be interested in learning more about the source and substance of your information regarding the "close guidance" Zion received from the Duke basketball program or Coach K individually when making his decisions in this matter. Correct me if I'm mistaken or if I missed the report, but so far as I'm aware there's been no indication that Zion ever conferred with anyone in the Duke basketball program before signing the contracts at issue in this litigation.

    Finally, you've said that you are "puzzled" by Zion's decisions to sign successive contracts with different agents, which you describe as "difficult to understand" and characterize as "unfathomable" and "baffling given the circumstances." But there's the rub: At this point, you can't possibly know the factual circumstances that prompted Zion to sign these contracts. It's certainly easy to say, when viewed in retrospect, that Zion made a "bad decision" or a "poor choice" to sign the first contract with Gina Ford. But I don't believe it's so difficult to comprehend how he could have been led to sign the contract when you consider his age and personality and the potential influence of family members.

    Haven't we all seen examples of young people who made bad decisions or poor choices because they trusted their family members, or wanted to please their family members, or simply didn't have the heart to say "No" when a family member asked them to do something? (I think Duke basketball fans can conjure up an example from recent history.) To me, at least, it requires no great leaps of the imagination to envision how such circumstances, and particularly the timing and manner of presentation, could have led to the unfortunate situation that now confronts Zion in this case. And though it now appears, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been unwise or even foolish for Zion to sign the first contract, I'd be hesitant without more information to disparage his actions as unfathomable or baffling.
    You've selectively cited and recompiled out of context snippets of my (I assume) various quotes on this topic. I'm not able to review the accuracy or respond with the same degree of precision.

    But as for the substance, I did not not intend to, nor would I, attempt to assess the allocation of responsibility for the bad decisions as between Zion and his family. That seems to be one of your main quibbles above, so let me make it clear that my comments generally held the lot accountable collectively. Fair enough if his bad decisions were in fact dominated by his family rather than himself - we can certainly debate how much of the fault lies with the individual vs. his family. But not that they were bad decisions.

    Best I can tell, your only other substantive quibble regards whether I know that Duke in fact helped Zion with this decision. So, if your assertion is that perhaps Zion sought advice from Duke and the school refused to provide it, or provided him terrible advice, then that would shift the responsibility more to Duke vs. Zion. Not sure what difference it makes, since again we would be blame shifting around the poor decisions that were made. If he failed to seek the program's input on a decision of this magnitude, well... that would seem to be on him.

    Not much point in a blame shifting debate at this stage, especially on this board where we love Duke and we love Zion.

    To repeat, I love Zion and wish him the best. But however you analyze it, or try to reallocate blame, these particular decisions were bad decisions.
    Last edited by duke96; 05-15-2020 at 12:36 AM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by duke96 View Post
    You've selectively cited and recompiled out of context snippets of my (I assume) various quotes on this topic. I'm not able to review the accuracy or respond with the same degree of precision.

    But as for the substance, I did not not intend to, nor would I, attempt to assess the allocation of responsibility for the bad decisions as between Zion and his family. That seems to be one of your main quibbles above, so let me make it clear that my comments generally held the lot accountable collectively. Fair enough if his bad decisions were in fact dominated by his family rather than himself - we can certainly debate how much of the fault lies with the individual vs. his family. But not that they were bad decisions.

    Best I can tell, your only other substantive quibble regards whether I know that Duke in fact helped Zion with this decision. So, if your assertion is that perhaps Zion sought advice from Duke and the school refused to provide it, or provided him terrible advice, then that would shift the responsibility more to Duke vs. Zion. Not sure what difference it makes, since again we would be blame shifting around the poor decisions that were made. If he failed to seek the program's input on a decision of this magnitude, well... that would seem to be on him.

    Not much point in a blame shifting debate at this stage, especially on this board where we love Duke and we love Zion.

    To repeat, I love Zion and wish him the best. But however you analyze it, or try to reallocate blame, these particular decisions were bad decisions.
    The principal difference between you and me is that I'm not proceeding on the underlying premise that there is any "blame" to be ascribed, or allocated, or shifted to anyone, at least yet. The fact that decisions were made that now appear in retrospect to have been "bad" doesn't necessarily mean, IMO, that someone has to be "blamed" or deemed to be "at fault." Sometimes people take actions or make decisions that seem at the time to be the right thing to do, but later prove to be "poor choices." And sometimes people just make innocent mistakes. You keep saying that you love Zion and you love Duke; but in your posts on this subject you seem determined to adjudicate one or both blameworthy -- as if a "bad decision" can only be explained by finding that someone was being a bad person, or at least was "foolish" because they did not do everything they could and should have done -- even though you have no knowledge of the circumstances as they existed at the time.

    And for the record, you're the only one here who has insinuated that the Duke basketball program is somehow at fault, when you described this situation, in your 11:33 p.m. post, as "a generational prospect making a 9+ figure decision under the close guidance of a top-tier basketball program like Duke." Now, in response to my inquiry about the factual basis for your assertion that the Duke basketball program provided "close guidance" to Zion when he made these decisions -- since you've denied that your judgments about this matter require any assumptions -- you blithely dismiss the point as a "quibble," shrug off the issue by saying you're "not sure what difference it makes," and try to divert the focus from your own assignment of blame by suggesting that I might be asserting some involvement by Duke.

    It makes a difference to me because I don't believe that anyone, least of all someone professing to be a supporter of the Duke program, ought to be making unsubstantiated public accusations that the Duke basketball program was somehow "guiding" Zion when he signed these contracts. It's bad enough that we have legions of rival fans and other haters who are only too eager to seize upon any hint or suggestion of a misstep, even without a shred of supporting evidence, and amplify it as a negative reflection on the Duke coaches or program.

    Finally, as for your statement that "[i]f [Zion] failed to seek the program's input on a decision of this magnitude, well... that would seem to be on him," I see no need to assume that Zion must be blamed if he signed the first contract without first seeking advice from the Duke coaches and staff. Again, we don't know the specific circumstances under which he signed; the timing and context of the presentation of that contract could conceivably have made it difficult or awkward for Zion to have the opportunity to consult with the people at Duke. I'm not saying it happened that way, but only that it's not implausible. All I'm saying is that until we know more about the circumstances, I believe it would be wise -- and only fair -- to withhold judgment as to whether Zion or the Duke program deserve to be "blamed" for these "bad decisions."

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    The principal difference between you and me is that I'm not proceeding on the underlying premise that there is any "blame" to be ascribed, or allocated, or shifted to anyone, at least yet. The fact that decisions were made that now appear in retrospect to have been "bad" doesn't necessarily mean, IMO, that someone has to be "blamed" or deemed to be "at fault." Sometimes people take actions or make decisions that seem at the time to be the right thing to do, but later prove to be "poor choices." And sometimes people just make innocent mistakes. You keep saying that you love Zion and you love Duke; but in your posts on this subject you seem determined to adjudicate one or both blameworthy -- as if a "bad decision" can only be explained by finding that someone was being a bad person, or at least was "foolish" because they did not do everything they could and should have done -- even though you have no knowledge of the circumstances as they existed at the time.

    And for the record, you're the only one here who has insinuated that the Duke basketball program is somehow at fault, when you described this situation, in your 11:33 p.m. post, as "a generational prospect making a 9+ figure decision under the close guidance of a top-tier basketball program like Duke." Now, in response to my inquiry about the factual basis for your assertion that the Duke basketball program provided "close guidance" to Zion when he made these decisions -- since you've denied that your judgments about this matter require any assumptions -- you blithely dismiss the point as a "quibble," shrug off the issue by saying you're "not sure what difference it makes," and try to divert the focus from your own assignment of blame by suggesting that I might be asserting some involvement by Duke.

    It makes a difference to me because I don't believe that anyone, least of all someone professing to be a supporter of the Duke program, ought to be making unsubstantiated public accusations that the Duke basketball program was somehow "guiding" Zion when he signed these contracts. It's bad enough that we have legions of rival fans and other haters who are only too eager to seize upon any hint or suggestion of a misstep, even without a shred of supporting evidence, and amplify it as a negative reflection on the Duke coaches or program.

    Finally, as for your statement that "[i]f [Zion] failed to seek the program's input on a decision of this magnitude, well... that would seem to be on him," I see no need to assume that Zion must be blamed if he signed the first contract without first seeking advice from the Duke coaches and staff. Again, we don't know the specific circumstances under which he signed; the timing and context of the presentation of that contract could conceivably have made it difficult or awkward for Zion to have the opportunity to consult with the people at Duke. I'm not saying it happened that way, but only that it's not implausible. All I'm saying is that until we know more about the circumstances, I believe it would be wise -- and only fair -- to withhold judgment as to whether Zion or the Duke program deserve to be "blamed" for these "bad decisions."
    Ok last post from me on this for now because we are really diving into minutiae here, and its probably getting pretty boring. How about this. Maybe some evidence will come to light to suggest somehow Zion and his family made good decisions here. Or there was some legit reason why he couldn't get advice from his highly experienced coaches and the program, even though he was presumably with them every day. Not sure what it would be, but we'll see.

  7. #127
    Join Date
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Gator View Post
    First of all, to be quite fair, I believe you did more than merely "suggest" that Zion "made a bad decision." You charged him flatly with "making a series of incredibly foolish choices," and then reiterated that these were "pretty clearly a foolish series of decisions." If someone similarly situated expressed that judgment about some of your business decisions -- basically calling you a fool -- I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to consider that a form of condemnation; and if that person broadcast their conclusion without knowledge of the specific circumstances under which you made those decisions, you might well regard it as quite unfair. (It merits noting that I'm not the only person posting in this thread who interpreted your comments as a denigration of Zion.)

    Second, in the same message, you stated that you were "very puzzled how Duke didn't help him make better choices," and then in a subsequent post you characterized this situation as "a generational prospect making a 9+ figure decision under the close guidance of a top-tier basketball program like Duke." (Emphasis added.) Since you deny that your opinion about Zion's decision making and Duke's role in that process rests on any assumptions, I'd be interested in learning more about the source and substance of your information regarding the "close guidance" Zion received from the Duke basketball program or Coach K individually when making his decisions in this matter. Correct me if I'm mistaken or if I missed the report, but so far as I'm aware there's been no indication that Zion ever conferred with anyone in the Duke basketball program before signing the contracts at issue in this litigation.

    Finally, you've said that you are "puzzled" by Zion's decisions to sign successive contracts with different agents, which you describe as "difficult to understand" and characterize as "unfathomable" and "baffling given the circumstances." But there's the rub: At this point, you can't possibly know the factual circumstances that prompted Zion to sign these contracts. It's certainly easy to say, when viewed in retrospect, that Zion made a "bad decision" or a "poor choice" to sign the first contract with Gina Ford. But I don't believe it's so difficult to comprehend how he could have been led to sign the contract when you consider his age and personality and the potential influence of family members.

    Haven't we all seen examples of young people who made bad decisions or poor choices because they trusted their family members, or wanted to please their family members, or simply didn't have the heart to say "No" when a family member asked them to do something? (I think Duke basketball fans can conjure up an example from recent history.) To me, at least, it requires no great leaps of the imagination to envision how such circumstances, and particularly the timing and manner of presentation, could have led to the unfortunate situation that now confronts Zion in this case. And though it now appears, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been unwise or even foolish for Zion to sign the first contract, I'd be hesitant without more information to disparage his actions as unfathomable or baffling.
    Stray, I admire you for trying to enforce a standard of "consistency" on other posters across multiple posts. Few of us would meet that standard.

    Maybe Zion is super smart. Perhaps he signed a contract only at the urging of others, but knew, based on advice from Duke or elsewhere, that the rep, Ms. Ford, was not qualified to be a sports agent in the state of NC. Then he went big time with CAA. Of course, he will have to go through some legal hoops and will probably surrender some bucks. But, hey, I'm with him -- $100 million and $95 million look pretty much the same to me.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  8. #128
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    Feb 2007
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    Washington DC
    https://www.si.com/college/2020/05/2...nquiry-lawsuit

    I assume the narrative here is going to be "they are trying to avoid having to deny improper benefits under oath."

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    https://www.si.com/college/2020/05/2...nquiry-lawsuit

    I assume the narrative here is going to be "they are trying to avoid having to deny improper benefits under oath."
    And there’s the headline

    https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/...243050931.html

  10. #130
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    Mar 2009
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    Seattle
    That's the response that all the legal people recommended Zion to take a few week back.

  11. #131
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    Clifton, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post

    Unfortunate and misleading headline. Why should Zion spend one more second of his time on this frivolous claim? Kind of like subjecting yourself to allowing the police to search your car when you know you have done nothing wrong. There is no point. Sure some will argue that it looks bad not to have your day in court or decline permission for the search, but it does not mean it is bad. Zion's former agent seems a bit desperate here and better have more evidence than a baseless accusation designed to embarrass Zion (and his family). Probably not a good look for getting new clients.

  12. #132
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    Vermont
    Quote Originally Posted by DUKIE V(A) View Post
    Unfortunate and misleading headline. Why should Zion spend one more second of his time on this frivolous claim? Kind of like subjecting yourself to allowing the police to search your car when you know you have done nothing wrong. There is no point. Sure some will argue that it looks bad not to have your day in court or decline permission for the search, but it does not mean it is bad. Zion's former agent seems a bit desperate here and better have more evidence than a baseless accusation designed to embarrass Zion (and his family). Probably not a good look for getting new clients.
    I did notice the misleading nature of the headline, then I realized it was the N&O, and tossing fecal matter in Duke's direction is a time honored tradition in the sports section.

  13. #133
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    Feb 2007
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    Richmond, VA
    So in this time where the NCAA is considering letting players make money from their image and the definition of amateur is up in the air...…

    Is an improper benefit better defined as when players are NOT adequately compensated...

    Fixing grades and creating fake classes to keep players eligible is still inexcusable...

  14. Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    I did notice the misleading nature of the headline, then I realized it was the N&O, and tossing fecal matter in Duke's direction is a time honored tradition in the sports section.
    All that said I thought the content of the article seemed to side more with Zion than Ford.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by ice-9 View Post
    All that said I thought the content of the article seemed to side more with Zion than Ford.
    definitely...the headline was gratuitous though...

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    definitely...the headline was gratuitous though...
    Oftentimes, the headline is written by somebody else than the author of the article.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Oftentimes, the headline is written by somebody else than the author of the article.
    Almost always written by someone else -- which, in some ways, makes it worst, in that it reflects views other than the writer.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    Oftentimes, the headline is written by somebody else than the author of the article.
    yes, as a former journalist and editor, this happens all the time...in fact our local paper was known for idiotic headlines which explicitly contradicted the articles for which they were written, forcing me to send them seventy five cents in the mail for the purpose of having the headline writer actually read the articles.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Almost always written by someone else -- which, in some ways, makes it worst, in that it reflects views other than the writer.
    Quote Originally Posted by budwom View Post
    yes, as a former journalist and editor, this happens all the time...in fact our local paper was known for idiotic headlines which explicitly contradicted the articles for which they were written, forcing me to send them seventy five cents in the mail for the purpose of having the headline writer actually read the articles.
    I acknowledge the cynicism of this post, but does it even matter anymore?

    Journalism is going the way of cursive writing. Fact checking a casualty of expediency and the time value of "infotainment."

    Even long-standing bastions of journalism are now leaning to one side or another, and "news" channels revel in their bias to the left or right.

    It is all about clicks and ratings. Sigh.

    Now get off of my lawn! I want to listen to my "oldies" station - 70's rock.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    I acknowledge the cynicism of this post, but does it even matter anymore?

    Journalism is going the way of cursive writing. Fact checking a casualty of expediency and the time value of "infotainment."

    Even long-standing bastions of journalism are now leaning to one side or another, and "news" channels revel in their bias to the left or right.

    It is all about clicks and ratings. Sigh.

    Now get off of my lawn! I want to listen to my "oldies" station - 70's rock.
    What are these "facts" you keep mentioning? I thought everything was a question of perspective and negotiation?

    *Hides under his bed, awaiting the inevitable apocalypse*

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