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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    Duke can can play hoops against top competition and even win a natty without a football team or a football conference. Eff ‘em.
    If the top football schools leave the NCAA, they might leave for all sports and form their own association. If so, the existing NCAA tournament probably becomes the NIT or the DIII tournament while the new association crowns the national basketball champion. In that case, if Duke ends up on the outside, we can only win the equivalent of the DIII or NIT championship, but not the "natty." Some people might be OK with that, but don't pretend like it's not a thing.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    If the top football schools leave the NCAA, they might leave for all sports and form their own association. If so, the existing NCAA tournament probably becomes the NIT or the DIII tournament while the new association crowns the national basketball champion. In that case, if Duke ends up on the outside, we can only win the equivalent of the DIII or NIT championship, but not the "natty." Some people might be OK with that, but don't pretend like it's not a thing.
    I’m not losing any sleep over “Something that might happen and probably cause something else” .

    They’re going to have a hoops tournament without Duke, Nova, zags, the rest of the Big East, the other “uninvited” schools and all the Cinderellas? Why would they do that if it’s only about football? What would be the advantage to holding a basketball tourney without those teams? No Cinderella upsets in round 1? The modified NIT tourney would be the better tournament which is why it won’t happen.

    UNC and UK fans are not going to be happy playing in a crappy tournament just so the can get pummeled in football. Let ‘em have it.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by uh_no View Post
    ACC-atlantic coast division and ACC-Big East division!
    What about ACC North and ACC South?


    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    I’m not losing any sleep over “Something that might happen and probably cause something else” .

    They’re going to have a hoops tournament without Duke, Nova, zags, the rest of the Big East, the other “uninvited” schools and all the Cinderellas? Why would they do that if it’s only about football? What would be the advantage to holding a basketball tourney without those teams? No Cinderella upsets in round 1? The modified NIT tourney would be the better tournament which is why it won’t happen.

    UNC and UK fans are not going to be happy playing in a crappy tournament just so the can get pummeled in football. Let ‘em have it.
    I just had a thought... but what about a "football organization" for those football schools, and a "basketball organization" for those basketball schools. Where would Duke, Vanderbilt, etc fall???

  4. #324

    Conference vs Specific Sports

    Quote Originally Posted by Bay Area Duke Fan View Post
    How about UCLA-USC?
    Until recently, the overall value of belonging to a major conference outweighed the asymmetries among the specific sports. Being a member of the SEC brought more to, let's say, Vandy, than not being a member, even though they have been uncompetitive in football for years. They could compete well in other sports, such as baseball, tennis, track and field and many other sports. Their conference membership brought revenue, opportunities to play at a high competitive level, promotional advantages and scheduling efficiencies.

    I've followed closely the various recommendations: The ACC could add this or that school, due to this and that consideration. The SEC wouldn't want to do X because of Y and Z. But another poster points out that that would set in motion a slew of other unsatisfactory consequences. My brain tells me that this tangled ball of yarn is due to our sticking with an outmoded concept of conferences.

    Surveying the scene, including the many excellent DBR posts on the subject, what has become clear to me is that the major revenue sports, particularly football, increasingly constitute a force that is more powerful than conferences, conceived as bundled, multi-sport entities, i.e., comprising all the interscholastic sports that a school offers.

    In other words, an unbundling is occurring: The major conferences, TBD, are coalescing around particular sports, such as football and basketball. Specific schools will make all sorts of arrangements, with various tiering within particular sports and among various sports. A particular school will find itself a member of multiple "conferences," depending on the specific sport, AND depending on the distinctive missions of the participating schools.

    And the NCAA will be consigned to the dustbin of history, as they say. It's already on life support.

    That's what I see happening. Don't know the timing, but I sense that the snowball is gaining size and momentum. What do y'all think?
    “I love it. Coach, when we came here, we had a three-hour meeting about the core values. If you really represent the core values, it means diving on the floor, sacrificing your body for your teammates, no matter how much you’re up by or how much you’re down by, always playing hard.” -- Zion

  5. #325
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    It isn't meant to be a conference, it is a new league. The team count compares favorably to other leagues like the NBA and NFL.
    I was joking a bit in my original comments but still am intrigued if it is a new league.

    In the 30 team NBA everyone does play everyone else at least once a year since they have an 80+ game regular season. In the NFL they at least have conferences where each year there at least 3 home and home series (6 games). However, in the NFL the teams do not play everyone at least once a year but perhaps they do try to rotate through every 3-4 years.

    If the ACC/SEC merge...would that mean no more ACC-Big10 challenge in basketball? No more champions classic in basketball? No more Maui invitational? These non conference games may get in the way of some cohesive "league" schedule in basketball.

    Also, the conference tournament would cut into regular season games. With 31 teams would you take just the top 16 into a conference championship just like the NBA? That would not add any more games to the schedule since it would be like finishing in the bottom 4 in the current ACC and having to play 4 games in 4 days in the tournament.

    "League" playoffs in football would be even harder. One could imagine at least 4 teams in a conference playoff so that someone could not sneak into a conference championship without playing any top teams. Let's imagine unc NOT playing Ala, Aub, LSU, Clem or Ga one year and going undefeated (ugh!). Would they make it into the conference championship over any of these other teams having just one loss? So semifinals (at least) eliminate this. If the teams are good enough for a possible 12 team national championship tournament that means 2 post season conference and 3 post season national playoff games. So planning for the regular season has to include 5 potential post season games. That means a 7 or 8 game regular season. At least in the NFL there are 17? games to decide who makes the playoffs.

    So after all of those logistic nightmares about scheduling I do see a way to have this mega-conference....keep the current "leagues" separate when it comes to games. SEC East, SEC west, ACC Coastal etc. Fill in non-conference games with ACC-SEC challenges...always have Clemson - USC in football (and similar games; Ky - Louisville; Duke - Vandy), have Duke - Ky in bball ( Ky - Louisville; Ga - Ga Tech; Fla - FSU etc...). Then share all of the revenue.

    So the league is all about TV rights and dollars rather than who actually plays one another.

  6. #326
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC

    Back to the old Southern Conference?

    There is some history to a very large conference covering the South.

    From Wiki:
    Talks of a new conference for Southern athletics had started as early as fall of 1920.[8] The conference was formed on February 25, 1921 in Atlanta as fourteen member institutions split from the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association.[1] Southern Conference charter members were Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi State, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Tennessee, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Washington & Lee. In 1922, six more universities – Florida, LSU, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tulane, and Vanderbilt joined the conference. The first year of competition for the conference was in 1922, effective January 1.[9][10] The new rules banned freshman play.[11] Later additions included Sewanee (1924), Virginia Military Institute (1924), and Duke (1929).

    The SoCon is particularly notable for having spawned two other major conferences. In 1932, the 13 schools located south and west of the Appalachians (Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi State, University of the South(Sewanee), Tennessee, Tulane, and Vanderbilt) all departed the SoCon to form the Southeastern Conference (SEC). In 1953, seven additional schools (Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina, and Wake Forest) withdrew from the SoCon to form the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC).[1]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southe...erence#History

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    There is some history to a very large conference covering the South.

    From Wiki:
    Talks of a new conference for Southern athletics had started as early as fall of 1920.[8] The conference was formed on February 25, 1921 in Atlanta as fourteen member institutions split from the Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Association.[1] Southern Conference charter members were Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi State, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Tennessee, Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Washington & Lee. In 1922, six more universities – Florida, LSU, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tulane, and Vanderbilt joined the conference. The first year of competition for the conference was in 1922, effective January 1.[9][10] The new rules banned freshman play.[11] Later additions included Sewanee (1924), Virginia Military Institute (1924), and Duke (1929).

    The SoCon is particularly notable for having spawned two other major conferences. In 1932, the 13 schools located south and west of the Appalachians (Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi State, University of the South(Sewanee), Tennessee, Tulane, and Vanderbilt) all departed the SoCon to form the Southeastern Conference (SEC). In 1953, seven additional schools (Clemson, Duke, Maryland, North Carolina, North Carolina State, South Carolina, and Wake Forest) withdrew from the SoCon to form the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC).[1]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southe...erence#History
    Ooooh, SoCon basketball tournaments have historically been held in Asheville! I'd be down for that.

  8. #328
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Dallas
    Quote Originally Posted by hustleplays View Post

    And the NCAA will be consigned to the dustbin of history, as they say. It's already on life support.

    That's what I see happening. Don't know the timing, but I sense that the snowball is gaining size and momentum. What do y'all think?
    The NCAA is already dead. We are just figuring out which children get which parts of the inheritance.

  9. #329
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Undisclosed
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeSean View Post
    The NCAA is already dead. We are just figuring out which children get which parts of the inheritance.
    Like the Treaty of Verdun?

    Make sure you don’t end up being Lotharingia.

  10. #330
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    greater New Orleans area

    Consider the Source

    Quote Originally Posted by TywinBlue View Post
    In an interview on ESPN today Jay Bilas encouraged the ACC and SEC to merge into a single athletic conference.

    Thoughts ?
    Why listen to him? click bate?

  11. #331
    Join Date
    Nov 2020
    Location
    Western NC
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    There is some history to a very large conference covering the South.

    ...University of the South(Sewanee), Tennessee, Tulane, and Vanderbilt) all departed the SoCon to form the Southeastern Conference (SEC).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southe...erence#History
    It is lost to memory now, but the Sewanee Tigers were once a dominate force in college football.

    Sewanee was one of the first college football powers of the South and the 1899 team was one of its best. The 1899 Tigers won 12 games and loss none, outscored opponents 322–10. With just 13 players, the team known as the "Iron Men" had a six-day road trip with five shutout wins over Texas A&M, Texas, Tulane, LSU, and Ole Miss. Sportswriter Grantland Rice called the group "the most durable football team I ever saw."[1] The road trip is recalled memorably with the Biblical allusion "...and on the seventh day they rested."[2][3][a]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1899_S..._football_team

    Even in the 60s, they had their games written up in Sports Illustrated. The coach at the time was the legendary Shirley Majors (father of Johnny Majors) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Majors

    Sewanee's other claim to fame is that it is only 30 miles from the Jack Daniels distillery in one direction and a equal distance from George Dickel in another.

    Section 15

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Ooooh, SoCon basketball tournaments have historically been held in Asheville! I'd be down for that.
    Even better, the SoCon tournament was held in what was then Duke Indoor Stadium at least a couple of times in the 1940s.

  13. #333
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    Ooooh, SoCon basketball tournaments have historically been held in Asheville! I'd be down for that.
    Well, they've bounced around a bunch, but they have returned to Asheville recently. They started playing in Asheville ~40 years ago (early 80s) through the early 90s, then in the 90s they started rotating through other locations (Charleston, Chattanooga, Charlotte, and so on) until about 10 years ago when they returned to Asheville after some conference realignment. Prior to the 80s it again moved around (with a long stint in Raleigh for obvious reasons). I do think it is a good fit (and I wish the tournament had been in Asheville when I was in the pep band).

  14. #334
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    greater New Orleans area

    Collegiate versus club

    Quote Originally Posted by hustleplays View Post
    Until recently, the overall value of belonging to a major conference outweighed the asymmetries among the specific sports. Being a member of the SEC brought more to, let's say, Vandy, than not being a member, even though they have been uncompetitive in football for years. They could compete well in other sports, such as baseball, tennis, track and field and many other sports. Their conference membership brought revenue, opportunities to play at a high competitive level, promotional advantages and scheduling efficiencies.

    I've followed closely the various recommendations: The ACC could add this or that school, due to this and that consideration. The SEC wouldn't want to do X because of Y and Z. But another poster points out that that would set in motion a slew of other unsatisfactory consequences. My brain tells me that this tangled ball of yarn is due to our sticking with an outmoded concept of conferences.

    Surveying the scene, including the many excellent DBR posts on the subject, what has become clear to me is that the major revenue sports, particularly football, increasingly constitute a force that is more powerful than conferences, conceived as bundled, multi-sport entities, i.e., comprising all the interscholastic sports that a school offers.

    In other words, an unbundling is occurring: The major conferences, TBD, are coalescing around particular sports, such as football and basketball. Specific schools will make all sorts of arrangements, with various tiering within particular sports and among various sports. A particular school will find itself a member of multiple "conferences," depending on the specific sport, AND depending on the distinctive missions of the participating schools.

    And the NCAA will be consigned to the dustbin of history, as they say. It's already on life support.

    That's what I see happening. Don't know the timing, but I sense that the snowball is gaining size and momentum. What do y'all think?
    The revenue that collegiate athletics brings in, football and basketball included, is secured to a degree by consistency in the fan base. IMO the fan base for most schools is comprised of three or so categories of fans: 1) students, ALUMNI, and their associates 2) geographical/cultural allegiances: regional, state, etc. and 3) bandwagon fans who associate with a winning team for the "feel good" of it. The first two categories of people will continue to support specific collegiate teams as long as the colleges exist and continue to field teams.

    The conferences provide the fora for rivalries, championships and the bowl games, which help sustain interest and revenue. It is in everyone's interest to maintain the conferences. They will continue to expand and contract as member institutions compete for prestige and revenue.

    I think it is also in everyone's interest to have some form of the NCAA helping to orchestrate and provide some, voluntary if you will, oversight of collegiate athletics. It provides some sense of fairness and opportunity to the member colleges and thereby the fan base. The NCAA may morph as the conferences do, but at the end of the day, I believe the NCAA is necessary to keeping a healthy fan base. A lot has changed in the 110 years or so since the NCAA was established, but I don't see it going away any time soon.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Well, they've bounced around a bunch, but they have returned to Asheville recently. They started playing in Asheville ~40 years ago (early 80s) through the early 90s, then in the 90s they started rotating through other locations (Charleston, Chattanooga, Charlotte, and so on) until about 10 years ago when they returned to Asheville after some conference realignment. Prior to the 80s it again moved around (with a long stint in Raleigh for obvious reasons). I do think it is a good fit (and I wish the tournament had been in Asheville when I was in the pep band).
    I love attending those games. Always fun.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Kfanarmy View Post
    The revenue that collegiate athletics brings in, football and basketball included, is secured to a degree by consistency in the fan base. IMO the fan base for most schools is comprised of three or so categories of fans: 1) students, ALUMNI, and their associates 2) geographical/cultural allegiances: regional, state, etc. and 3) bandwagon fans who associate with a winning team for the "feel good" of it. The first two categories of people will continue to support specific collegiate teams as long as the colleges exist and continue to field teams.

    The conferences provide the fora for rivalries, championships and the bowl games, which help sustain interest and revenue. It is in everyone's interest to maintain the conferences. They will continue to expand and contract as member institutions compete for prestige and revenue.

    I think it is also in everyone's interest to have some form of the NCAA helping to orchestrate and provide some, voluntary if you will, oversight of collegiate athletics. It provides some sense of fairness and opportunity to the member colleges and thereby the fan base. The NCAA may morph as the conferences do, but at the end of the day, I believe the NCAA is necessary to keeping a healthy fan base. A lot has changed in the 110 years or so since the NCAA was established, but I don't see it going away any time soon.
    I disagree. The NCAA is a "nonprofit" organization that has outlived its usefulness in what has become an increasingly for profit industry. The NCAA once was an academic clearinghouse for athletes - is this something that still happens in nonrevenue sports? Do track athletes have to maintain a certain GPA to compete? I honestly don't know.

    What I do know is that D1 basketball and football players seem to never encounter these problems anymore.

    The NCAA organizes tournament hosts and logistics. Well, so do all conferences.

    What role does the NCAA have in major sports anymore other than bothersome beauracracy that hinders programs from their goals of putting the best product on their field?

    To be clear, I take no joy in this. I long for the days of accountability and actual student athletes. But, this is the evolution of the product. I don't see it all going back into the bottle.

    Colleges might keep their track and field type sports with the NCAA. But only if it is convenient.

  17. #337
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven43 View Post
    Well, the Tesla Model 3 starts at $39,990. While I agree that’s certainly not inexpensive, many cars cost more than that these days.

    As an FYI, I own a Model S and a Model Y (wife) and they are EASILY the best cars either of us has ever owned or driven. As for the self-driving capability, it came free for six months (which is just about to end) with purchase, but neither of us has used it a whole lot. But I will say it has performed flawlessly when used. I guess both of us just like being a bit more hands-on.

    Anyway, back to the discussion of the ill-fated Team USA.
    I own a Model S with self drive and it's such a boon when stuck in bumper to bumper, rush hour highway traffic. You just turn on the self drive and it does all the starting and stopping for you.

    And for those who are scared of self driving technology... you have most likely ridden on a commercial airline flight that used the same technology, FWIW.
    Hard at work making beautiful things.

  18. #338
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    greater New Orleans area
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    I disagree. The NCAA is a "nonprofit" organization that has outlived its usefulness in what has become an increasingly for profit industry. The NCAA once was an academic clearinghouse for athletes - is this something that still happens in nonrevenue sports? Do track athletes have to maintain a certain GPA to compete? I honestly don't know.

    What I do know is that D1 basketball and football players seem to never encounter these problems anymore.

    The NCAA organizes tournament hosts and logistics. Well, so do all conferences.

    What role does the NCAA have in major sports anymore other than bothersome beauracracy that hinders programs from their goals of putting the best product on their field?

    To be clear, I take no joy in this. I long for the days of accountability and actual student athletes. But, this is the evolution of the product. I don't see it all going back into the bottle.

    Colleges might keep their track and field type sports with the NCAA. But only if it is convenient.
    I read you, I just think stepping away from the NCAA, without something with a similar function to replace it, comes with significant economic peril to all of the member institutions ...and I think the conferences believe that as well. They may want it to be a benign paper tiger, which it has largely become with decisions like they made on the UNC paper-class (not really, just say you did one) scandal, but it provides a veneer of legitimacy that is valuable.

  19. #339
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    On the Road to Nowhere
    Quote Originally Posted by Edouble View Post
    I own a Model S with self drive and it's such a boon when stuck in bumper to bumper, rush hour highway traffic. You just turn on the self drive and it does all the starting and stopping for you.

    And for those who are scared of self driving technology... you have most likely ridden on a commercial airline flight that used the same technology, FWIW.
    A lot more space in the sky than on an interstate.

  20. #340
    If the front page is accurate, the Big and ACC may stand pat for the present time (although Texas A&M would warn that conference plotting isn’t always transparent).
    It would be prudent for Duke to have contingency plans. The NIL issue is a different challenge. It will be challenging for Duke NIL money to keep up with the big boys in basketball but there is no chance in football. Any attempt to compete will dilute basketball NIL $. So what if Duke decided, as a contingency, to chart their own course instead of continuously reacting to the winds of change? Why not prepare to be the Notre Dame of basketball? If they must have a conference, the Southern Conference should suffice for football and Olympic Sports although I don’t think Duke is ready to compete with App State yet in football. If that’s not appealing, just drop football altogether and find some kindred spirits like Wake, Vandy and UVA to merge with the A10. Then you could actually offer full baseball scholarships without 40 football Scholarships to match under Title IX. So no football but super strong Baseball and Hoops and a reasonable travel schedule for Olympic sports. I know the $$ don’t reflect it but the youngsters do not have the same interest in football as my generation or my parents generation. Most kids I know don’t don’t even dream of playing HS football these days . The TV $ is going to continue for the foreseeable future but idk if the stadiums will always be filled or if our kids will be anxious to fund a football scholarships in exchange for season tickets and a good parking space at the stadium. I think Duke could lead the way to an exciting brand of basketball that would be the envy of the blue bloods who sold out for football. At some point and time, those same winds of change might blow those guys back around to the league that Duke built.

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