Ultimate X-Factor: Marshall Plumlee

[DavidBenAkiva]

After yesterday's game against Toledo, Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor. I, for one, look forward to seeing how this might play out over the course of the conference season. Plumlee started to get consistent minutes during conference play last season. He was mostly filling a gaping hole the team had at the post position. This season, the team has a hole on the bench since Semi Ojeleye decided to transfer. If Plumlee and Okafor can coexist on the court for 5-10 minutes a game, this Duke team could take a leap forward.

On Offense
This is the biggest question; Can the two towers coexist? I think so. The offense generally runs through Okafor. Amile Jefferson doesn't get offense run for him, so Plumlee can step into his role of setting screens and rolling to the basket when the defense collapses on Okafor. He's an excellent offensive rebounder, like Jefferson, but has the added advantage of superior athleticism. Jefferson is a much better ball handler and has been showing the occasional mid-range jumper. Plumlee doesn't do those things, but you can live with him setting screens and rolling to the hoop for 5-10 minutes a game. When Okafor sits, the offense runs through the guards. We've seen it work, although it is not the prettiest thing in the world.

On Defense
Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help. By virtue of being tall and a good jumper, Plumlee is a very good shot blocker. He can disrupt shots and, even though averaging a shade under 10 minutes a game, has racked up 10 blocks in 11 games. That's good for second on the team. Imagine a team having to go through Okafor and Plumlee at the rim. Just having that length out there for 10 minutes a night would shake up the defense.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a twin towers lineup out there for 5-10 minutes a game in the near future. Hopefully it works out!

[Henderson]

There would be obvious negative trade offs, but I too would like to see it experimented with a little. Might rattle some opponents and mess with future game-planning.

BTW, I wonder if someone at home commented on Marshall's parted 'do over break...

[DukieInBrasil]

After yesterday's game against Toledo, Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor. I, for one, look forward to seeing how this might play out over the course of the conference season. Plumlee started to get consistent minutes during conference play last season. He was mostly filling a gaping hole the team had at the post position. This season, the team has a hole on the bench since Semi Ojeleye decided to transfer. If Plumlee and Okafor can coexist on the court for 5-10 minutes a game, this Duke team could take a leap forward.

On Offense
This is the biggest question; Can the two towers coexist? I think so. The offense generally runs through Okafor. Amile Jefferson doesn't get offense run for him, so Plumlee can step into his role of setting screens and rolling to the basket when the defense collapses on Okafor. He's an excellent offensive rebounder, like Jefferson, but has the added advantage of superior athleticism. Jefferson is a much better ball handler and has been showing the occasional mid-range jumper. Plumlee doesn't do those things, but you can live with him setting screens and rolling to the hoop for 5-10 minutes a game. When Okafor sits, the offense runs through the guards. We've seen it work, although it is not the prettiest thing in the world.

On Defense
Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help. By virtue of being tall and a good jumper, Plumlee is a very good shot blocker. He can disrupt shots and, even though averaging a shade under 10 minutes a game, has racked up 10 blocks in 11 games. That's good for second on the team. Imagine a team having to go through Okafor and Plumlee at the rim. Just having that length out there for 10 minutes a night would shake up the defense.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a twin towers lineup out there for 5-10 minutes a game in the near future. Hopefully it works out!

Plus, not many teams have 2 7 footers. If both share the court for a few minutes, then one of them would likely have a serious size/skill mismatch. Which could be beneficial for us, but that cuts both ways too.
In addition to the MP3-Jahlil combo, there's a few other combos with our bigs that we could test out some more:MP3-Amile, MP3-Justise, Amile-Justise. I'm sure those have all been used at least a few times this year, but if the Twin Towers idea goes forward, we may need the other options as well.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Are we that far in the season already? Is it "MP3 needs more minutes" time?

/checks watch

[Kedsy]

This season, the team has a hole on the bench since Semi Ojeleye decided to transfer.

Semi hardly played. I don't understand what you mean by "a hole on the bench."

Plumlee doesn't do those things, but you can live with him setting screens and rolling to the hoop for 5-10 minutes a game.

As you point out, Amile is a better offensive player than Marshall. Increasing Marshall's minutes at the expense of Amile will hurt the offense, whether we can live with it or not.

When Okafor sits, the offense runs through the guards. We've seen it work, although it is not the prettiest thing in the world.

What's the relevance of the above statement to this topic? When Jahlil sits is currently when Marshall plays.

Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help.

I think going from "Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor" to "Plumlee play[ing] 20 minutes a game" is quite a leap. Having seen the way Coach K has employed Marshall so far, I find it difficult to imagine Marshall's minutes getting anywhere close to 20 mpg.

If Plumlee and Okafor can coexist on the court for 5-10 minutes a game, this Duke team could take a leap forward.

By virtue of being tall and a good jumper, Plumlee is a very good shot blocker. He can disrupt shots and, even though averaging a shade under 10 minutes a game, has racked up 10 blocks in 11 games. That's good for second on the team. Imagine a team having to go through Okafor and Plumlee at the rim. Just having that length out there for 10 minutes a night would shake up the defense.

While it's true Marshall is a much better shotblocker than Amile, he's a much worse defensive rebounder. He's also a worse defender in general, doesn't communicate on D nearly as well as Amile, and probably will have many more problems guarding mobile PFs one-on-one. Frankly, I think subbing in Marshall for Amile will make the defense less effective, not more. Doesn't mean we can't try it for a few minutes, but I can't see how playing Marshall more will help "this Duke team... take a leap forward."

Against the six top 100 teams that we've played so far, Marshall has averaged 7.3 mpg. If he could really bring to the game the positives you're attributing to him, that number would already be higher.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a twin towers lineup out there for 5-10 minutes a game in the near future.

I think we'll be lucky if we see it for more than a few minutes a game.

[bbosbbos]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

[yancem]

Are we that far in the season already? Is it "MP3 needs more minutes" time?

/checks watch

I'm not sure the OP was necessarily saying MP3 needs more minutes so much as playing him along side Okafor gives Duke a different look. I think that is something that K should experiment with over the next few games to see if a twin tower set can be implemented effectively. As was stated earlier, not many teams can put 2 7ft's on the floor at the same time which could make opposing teams adjust to us and away from their normal/comfortable line-ups. It would also mean less time of Winslow at the 4 which I think is less than ideal but up to now, it seems like the only option when Jefferson is out. Plus if we ever face KY, we may need MP3 to play more minutes to counter their size so getting the team used to the line-up now could help later.

I don't know if the idea will actually work but I'm definitely curious and we have a couple of easyish games coming up so why not give it a try?

[Duvall]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

Not since way back in 2013. Or 2012, if you only count playing two post players that can't shoot.

[Kedsy]

Here's where having Plumlee play 20 minutes a game could really help.

I'm not sure the OP was necessarily saying MP3 needs more minutes so much as playing him along side Okafor gives Duke a different look.

I think he was saying both.

[wilko]

It would be an interesting strategy in spots for certain team match-ups... but as an ongoing change to the team dynamic - I'm not sure I see it being sustainable in the long term..

Marshall needs to prove he can catch the ball securely and score consistently from Jah passing out of a double team.
I think at this point Amile may have better hands and quickness, but nowhere near Marshall's mass to bang.

It has advantages and tradeoffs depending on the match-up

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

...
While it's true Marshall is a much better shotblocker than Amile, he's a much worse defensive rebounder. He's also a worse defender in general, doesn't communicate on D nearly as well as Amile, and probably will have many more problems guarding mobile PFs one-on-one. Frankly, I think subbing in Marshall for Amile will make the defense less effective, not more. Doesn't mean we can't try it for a few minutes, but I can't see how playing Marshall more will help "this Duke team... take a leap forward." ...

Kedsy, you have clearly forgotten how these threads work - Board Poster A points to one nice dunk or block in a game from MP3 and decides MP3 should play more minutes. Board Poster B points to defensive lapses, bad fouls, or flubbed passes and says that they trust Coach K to determine who needs more minutes, as he sees everyone daily and we watch 5 minutes of MP3 twice a week.

BPA says that leaning on the "Coach K knows better" defense is ridiculous because everyone makes mistakes. BPB points out all the rings and victories and uses that as rationale for assuming he has a better grasp on players' potential and who should play when. BPA says doubting the coach is not being a bad fan, and then the conversation degenerates into whether you can be a true Duke fan if you don't have blind faith in either MP3's huge upside or in Coach K's infallibility.

By this point, we have reached the next game, where MP3 either doesn't play enough, or has one more impressive play (and perhaps 3 poor ones) and we hit repeat.

At no point in this discussion is their room for rational discussion like you listed above. I will trust you fall into form for the next 20 iterations of this debate over the next three months.

Go Duke!
Go MP3!
Go K!

[CajunDevil]

That is an intriguing idea that I'd like to see a few times. I think Kedsy makes a good point about the high value of Amile's defensive communication and being a better defensive rebounder, however Marshall brings a nice change of pace from shot blocking and general energy perspectives. For 2-3 minutes at a time it would be interesting to see...

[yancem]

In K's era has he ever played twin towers before?

Off the top of my head, Duke has paired Ferry and Laettner/Abdelnaby in '89, Laettner and Abdelnaby in '90, Laettner and Parks some in '92, Parks and Meeks in 95, Williams and McRoberts in '06, Zoubek/MP1/MP2 some in '10 and MP1/MP2 and Kelly in '11 & '12 and MP2 and Kelly in '13. Now, I believe that only Zoubek and MP3 are/were considered true 7ft's while the rest were 6'10"-6'11" (and Williams was only 6'9" but played center) but Okafor is listed as 6'11" so I would think most if not all of the above combinations constitute a twin towers line-up (at least by college standards).

[jv001]

It would be an interesting strategy in spots for certain team match-ups... but as an ongoing change to the team dynamic - I'm not sure I see it being sustainable in the long term..

Marshall needs to prove he can catch the ball securely and score consistently from Jah passing out of a double team.
I think at this point Amile may have better hands and quickness, but nowhere near Marshall's mass to bang.

It has advantages and tradeoffs depending on the match-up

Playing both Jah and Marshall at the same time also raises the chances of Marshall getting in foul trouble more quickly. If that happens early, we really don't have anyone that can give Jah breathers and we don't need Jah pacing himself. We need for the big guy to run the court like he did last night. I don't see Marshall and Jah together on the court more than one or two minutes at the most. GoDuke!

[OldPhiKap]

Kedsy, you have clearly forgotten how these threads work - Board Poster A points to one nice dunk or block in a game from MP3 and decides MP3 should play more minutes. Board Poster B points to defensive lapses, bad fouls, or flubbed passes and says that they trust Coach K to determine who needs more minutes, as he sees everyone daily and we watch 5 minutes of MP3 twice a week.

BPA says that leaning on the "Coach K knows better" defense is ridiculous because everyone makes mistakes. BPB points out all the rings and victories and uses that as rationale for assuming he has a better grasp on players' potential and who should play when. BPA says doubting the coach is not being a bad fan, and then the conversation degenerates into whether you can be a true Duke fan if you don't have blind faith in either MP3's huge upside or in Coach K's infallibility.

By this point, we have reached the next game, where MP3 either doesn't play enough, or has one more impressive play (and perhaps 3 poor ones) and we hit repeat.

At no point in this discussion is their room for rational discussion like you listed above. I will trust you fall into form for the next 20 iterations of this debate over the next three months.

Go Duke!
Go MP3!
Go K!

So -- which poster compares the other one to Hitler first? Godwin's Law must be appeased.

[Henderson]

Semi hardly played. I don't understand what you mean by "a hole on the bench."



As you point out, Amile is a better offensive player than Marshall. Increasing Marshall's minutes at the expense of Amile will hurt the offense, whether we can live with it or not.



What's the relevance of the above statement to this topic? When Jahlil sits is currently when Marshall plays.



I think going from "Coach K mentioned that he would consider playing Marshall Plumlee alongside Jahlil Okafor" to "Plumlee play[ing] 20 minutes a game" is quite a leap. Having seen the way Coach K has employed Marshall so far, I find it difficult to imagine Marshall's minutes getting anywhere close to 20 mpg.





While it's true Marshall is a much better shotblocker than Amile, he's a much worse defensive rebounder. He's also a worse defender in general, doesn't communicate on D nearly as well as Amile, and probably will have many more problems guarding mobile PFs one-on-one. Frankly, I think subbing in Marshall for Amile will make the defense less effective, not more. Doesn't mean we can't try it for a few minutes, but I can't see how playing Marshall more will help "this Duke team... take a leap forward."

Against the six top 100 teams that we've played so far, Marshall has averaged 7.3 mpg. If he could really bring to the game the positives you're attributing to him, that number would already be higher.



I think we'll be lucky if we see it for more than a few minutes a game.

Given that you ripped the guy on every point he made, what would be "lucky" about seeing Marshall and Okafor play together in your view? I thought he was just riffing on K's comment yesterday and speculating. I recognize (as I'm sure the OP does) that there are negative tradeoffs, but K and some of us seem to think it's an interesting idea.

Maybe someone didn't get what he wanted for Christmas?

[jv001]

Given that you ripped the guy on every point he made, what would be "lucky" about seeing Marshall and Okafor play together in your view? I thought he was just riffing on K's comment yesterday and speculating. I recognize (as I'm sure the OP does) that there are negative tradeoffs, but K and some of us seem to think it's an interesting idea.

Maybe someone didn't get what he wanted for Christmas?

I agree the poster was reflecting off the Coach K comment after the game. But I disagree with the notion that Marshall can get 20 minutes a game. I love Marshall as much as the next guy and want to see him play well, but I don't think 20 minutes per game is going to happen this season. Maybe next year out of necessity but not this season. GoDuke!

[yancem]

I think he was saying both.

Well if you're going to point out actual quotes then I guess I will have to agree but I felt like his main point wasn't so much he needs more minutes as what the twin tower dynamic might bring to the table. I'm not sure it would work, but I do think it is worth taking a look at. MP3 is a bit of an enigma but then again, so were both his brothers for much of their careers at Duke. They both eventually got it and are now both doing fairly well (MP2 quite well the past couple of weeks) in the nba. Maybe MP3 will blossom some time this year or next. We can hope, at least.

[Henderson]

I agree the poster was reflecting off the Coach K comment after the game. But I disagree with the notion that Marshall can get 20 minutes a game. I love Marshall as much as the next guy and want to see him play well, but I don't think 20 minutes per game is going to happen this season. Maybe next year out of necessity but not this season. GoDuke!

20 is too high. Agreed. But the concept is interesting. Coach K was the one who brought it up.

[Kedsy]

Given that you ripped the guy on every point he made, what would be "lucky" about seeing Marshall and Okafor play together in your view? I thought he was just riffing on K's comment yesterday and speculating. I recognize (as I'm sure the OP does) that there are negative tradeoffs, but K and some of us seem to think it's an interesting idea.

Maybe someone didn't get what he wanted for Christmas?

I didn't "rip" anything. I merely disagreed with several of his points. I don't think I was rude or impolite in any way, so what's wrong with pointing out why I disagree?

To answer your question, we'll be lucky to see the two paired together for a few minutes to satisfy curiosity, to give us a different look for a few minutes, and because some people want to see it. I don't see anything wrong with that. I probably would see something wrong with playing Marshall 20 mpg.