MBB: Duke 87, Michigan State 75 Post-Game Thread

[summerwind03]

No MOTM?

I really wanted to vote for Tre! He really was an amazing leader last night.

[kAzE]

No MOTM?

I just posted it. Got tired of waiting for someone else to do it

[Steven43]

A crazy thought just crossed my mind: What if Zion Williamson's shoe never exploded last year? We might have won the national championship, and we likely would have had the services of Joey Baker for a whole extra year. That is some depressing stuff.

Curse the UNC manager who tampered with Zion's shoes. (This is my conspiracy theory)

Joey got some game experience last year. That is helping him now. He would not be quite the player he is right now had he not gotten some actual game experience last year. And it’s not just the physical experience, it’s mental as well.

[Steven43]

Interesting to see all the love for Bagley and Okafor, but hardly a mention of Carter. Did Momma Carter's comments turn off that many people where they'd hold it against her son?

Kind of, yeah.

[kAzE]

Joey got some game experience last year. That is helping him now. He would not be quite the player he is right now had he not gotten some actual game experience last year. And it’s not just the physical experience, it’s mental as well.

I'm not going to dismiss this argument, because you could very well be correct. But all the same, it was 18 minutes. If we could take back 18 minutes last year and trade it for a whole extra year in 2022-23, when Joey Baker is more than likely to be an All-ACC type of player, I'm sure we would all make that trade.

[Steven43]

If we could take back 18 minutes last year and trade it for a whole extra year in 2022-23, when Joey Baker is more than likely to be an All-ACC type of player, I'm sure we would all make that trade.

Too many assumptions would have to be made to make that argument. There is no way to come to a definitive answer. It’s all guesswork. I’m content to just leave it be and be excited about Joey Baker going forward.

[Edouble]

Interesting to see all the love for Bagley and Okafor, but hardly a mention of Carter. Did Momma Carter's comments turn off that many people where they'd hold it against her son?

No, but I don't think he's in the discussion for the best big at Duke over the last 10 years. Surely, a player who made 2nd Team All ACC is not better than two guys who were ACC POY.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I felt that our team's chemistry wasn't quite where it was post injury compared to pre-injury. That's a hard thing to measure, but I never felt like we returned to the early to mid season levels of performance in late February and March. Could those 5 extra games have made a difference? Maybe, maybe not. But Joey Baker definitely would have red shirted, and we would have stomped UNC twice, instead of getting swept by them in the regular season. That was a major bummer.

You got that right. Peaked in game one, and never did get back to early season form post shoe....post Tre out....etc...

[Skydog]

Personally, I think Joey Baker's defense is better than people give him credit for. Though he does foul a bit much (5.0 fouls per 40 minutes; 2nd only to Javin's 8.3 fouls per 40 among Duke's recruited scholarship players). ...

I'm probably over-reacting to a few plays when I specifically focused on Baker's defense but in some of those he seemed pretty unaware at times. In one of the plays he just keeps wandering away from his man, like he can't stop himself from coming over to help his teammates defend the ball, providing "help" they didn't need. The result was predictable - his man ends up with an open layup. A couple plays after that he is defending a pnr and he ends up double teaming the dribbler (who Jones had stayed with) leaving the roller open for another easy layup. On the latter play I don't fault Baker for popping out with the dribbler but as the play unfolded he had plenty of time to recover to the roller but didn't and the result was another easy layup. The issue that worried me in both of those plays wasn't that he made a mistake (happens to the best) it was that he seemed to lack awareness. A player who loses his man and knows it will improve a lot more than a player who loses his man and never registers that the breakdown was on him.

Finally in another play Baker seems frustrated and reaches around and hacks at the ball and hits the opponents arm pretty hard (at least that was my impression) but somehow doesn't get called for the foul. At risk of raising a touchy subject it looked a bit Grayson-esque. Not dirty at all, but also not smart. Unless you are experienced (and quick) it's hard to play good defense and stay out of foul trouble in general. Baker can't afford emotionally driven play, if that is what it was.

My caveat is that these are all small sample observations from focusing on his defense for 10 minutes in the last game. But they clued me in to why Baker hasn't been getting more playing time despite his considerable offensive skills.

[NSDukeFan]

I'm not going to dismiss this argument, because you could very well be correct. But all the same, it was 18 minutes. If we could take back 18 minutes last year and trade it for a whole extra year in 2022-23, when Joey Baker is more than likely to be an All-ACC type of player, I'm sure we would all make that trade.

If Baker keeps up (spoiler alert he won't) his 75+% true shooting percentage, we wouldn't have to worry about losing the redshirt year as he would be long gone.

[Edouble]

Great game by team, great effort. However, don’t get overhyped by this win. MSU is simply not very good. Take Winston out of the game (this will be game plan of all opponents going forward) and they don’t have much else. We will struggle with quick teams blowing by most of our guys on drives/dishes. Carey is very good - he will beat but he will not dominate bigs of equal size. We will still be a very tough team for anyone to beat, and if we play with the defensive intensity of last night we have as good a chance as anyone come March.

FWIW, Sparty is still ranked #3 on KenPom, even taking into account last night's game.

[sagegrouse]

This is really interesting - thanks for going through and compiling

I think there are 2 main points here:

1) Duke does not independently SCHEDULE many "true" on campus road games. Back in the day (and I picked 1990 to be "the day") Duke used to play ~4 true road games a season. In 1990 we played @Northwestern, @Michigan, @Davidson, and @William and Mary (can you imagine that today?); in 91 we played @Georgetown, @Harvard, @Oklahoma, @Citadel (another one that is hard to imagine), and @Arizona. In the mid 90's that schedule whittled some, but as you mention we used to have home-and-home series with UCLA, Michigan, St Johns, Georgetown, etc (note St John's and Georgetown are road games, but they happen to play their home games in NBA arenas), but even that is no longer part of the regular schedule. I think there are 3 reasons for this: 1) there isn't room in the schedule now vs the 80s/early 90s with the addition of the Champions Classic, proliferation of early season tournaments, ACC-BIG Challenge, and expanded conference schedule; 2) Duke (and other programs) have tended to prefer to play as many non-conference games as possible in neutral/NCAA arenas vs on-campus sites which we didn't do in the 80s/early 90s; and 3) I would speculate that Duke used to do this for recruiting exposure, but with the expansion of TV/media coverage Duke is a national brand and doesn't need to travel to drum up local interest.

2) Duke still does PLAY at least one true non-conference road game each year, but basically uses the ACC-BIG challenge to serve this purpose. Back in the first 4 years of the ACC-BIG Challenge Duke played those games at neutral cites (ie vs Illinois in the United Center in 2001), but since then they have played in hostile road atmospheres, like Breslin last night, the Kohl center, Assembly Hall, Mackey, and whatever Ohio State is calling it's building these days. And up until this year, Duke did have recent home-and-home partners (St. John's and Georgetown) but they happen to play their home games in NBA arenas - some may not call those "true" road games, but IMO they are still hostile spots (I was at the snow-out Gtown disaster in 2015 - that was rough). However, this game was a casualty of the expanded conference schedule this year.

Perhaps a primary reason Duke does not have very many high-profile away games is that a "home-and-home" arrangement doesn't work because Cameron is too small to generate nearly as much of a gate as the larger arenas. We might have to do a two-for-one, which is unattractive.

Duke has ended up scheduling major opponents at neutral sites, mostly the New York area.

[MartyClark]

Perhaps a primary reason Duke does not have very many high-profile away games is that a "home-and-home" arrangement doesn't work because Cameron is too small to generate nearly as much of a gate as the larger arenas. We might have to do a two-for-one, which is unattractive.

Duke has ended up scheduling major opponents at neutral sites, mostly the New York area.

I suspect that Duke could, in a financially feasible way, schedule some nonconference "home and homes". Even though Cameron is small, I think the television revenue would make up the difference.

The MSG games make a lot of sense. Big exposure, big arena, presumably big money.

I would personally like to see Duke schedule some nonconference away games in the west. The UCLA games used to be great.

Duke occupies a special spot in the college landscape and doesn't have to travel much to maintain financial and basketball success. Every long trip also results in the players being away from classes - maybe not a huge concern in the one and done era - but some of these kids are real students.

Despite all this, Duke please come to Colorado and play the Buffs in a home and home. The Colorado game could be in Denver at the Pepsi Center.

[Troublemaker]

I love Vernon's somewhat unorthodox scoring in the post. In lieu of a traditional hookshot, he often goes to a scoop shot that he shovels up to the rim from his waist, which I think is a testament to (a) how wide he is and (b) what Coach K has explained before, that he didn't play in the post much in high school. Re: his width, I just think if most college players attempted that shot as often as he does, they'd get it volleyball spiked back in their face most of the time. His width and strength are real factors generally, as it just seems like Duke is having less trouble with entry passes this season. I think he's providing a really large target and holding his ground in the post until he receives the entry. Knock on wood that it continues through ACC play and into March/April.

[weezie]

Wasn't Vernon's little baby hook a joy to see late in the second half?

[proelitedota]

Imagine if Zion and RJ cameback to finish the business.

Vernon
Zion
RJ
Cassius
Tre

No way we would have lost to SFA

[HereBeforeCoachK]

I suspect that Duke could, in a financially feasible way, schedule some nonconference "home and homes". Even though Cameron is small, I think the television revenue would make up the difference.

The MSG games make a lot of sense. Big exposure, big arena, presumably big money.

I would personally like to see Duke schedule some nonconference away games in the west. The UCLA games used to be great.

Duke occupies a special spot in the college landscape and doesn't have to travel much to maintain financial and basketball success. Every long trip also results in the players being away from classes - maybe not a huge concern in the one and done era - but some of these kids are real students.

Despite all this, Duke please come to Colorado and play the Buffs in a home and home. The Colorado game could be in Denver at the Pepsi Center.

With due respect, I say that traveling for these young people may be more educational than being in a classroom. Travel is a fabulous educational tool.

[FerryFor50]

Imagine if Zion and RJ cameback to finish the business.

Vernon
Zion
RJ
Cassius
Tre

No way we would have lost to SFA

If this season's team had shown up, they wouldn't have lost to SFA.

[dm9e24]

If this season's team had shown up, they wouldn't have lost to SFA.

We wouldn't have lost had we not missed 16 free throws.

[sagegrouse]

I suspect that Duke could, in a financially feasible way, schedule some nonconference "home and homes". Even though Cameron is small, I think the television revenue would make up the difference.

The MSG games make a lot of sense. Big exposure, big arena, presumably big money.

I would personally like to see Duke schedule some nonconference away games in the west. The UCLA games used to be great.

Duke occupies a special spot in the college landscape and doesn't have to travel much to maintain financial and basketball success. Every long trip also results in the players being away from classes - maybe not a huge concern in the one and done era - but some of these kids are real students.

Despite all this, Duke please come to Colorado and play the Buffs in a home and home. The Colorado game could be in Denver at the Pepsi Center.

Do you remember when we got totally jobbed at Arizona in 1991 in two overtime periods. Greg Koubek's decisive three-pointer was counted as a two, and he was wa-a-a-y beyond the line on the right side of the court. I think K had had his full of West Coast officiating.