MBB: Louisville 80, Duke 73 OT Post Game Thread

[tommy]

I hope to become a big fan as and when they grow up. I hope they're still at Duke when that happens.

As Coach Al McGuire always said, sagely, "You know what the best thing about a freshman is? He becomes a sophomore."

I for one will be very, very surprised if we don't see both Roach and Steward as markedly different, better, and more consistent players next year than they have been this year.

[kako]

It's taken me a full day+ to come to this board and read up. As expected, there's some angst, blame, etc. Yeah, I was upset about the loss, too. Duke had been on a roll, playing so well. So the loss took some of the wind out of my sails, too. But after working through the loss, here are some thoughts. Most aren't really new, just need to get them off my chest.

1. Man, Hurt was on fire. He's been good all year, but his fight inside to score really was impressive. I just wished Duke would have somehow found a way (any way) to get him the ball more during those last 2 minutes in regulation... I scoffed earlier this year when the erudite Cory Alexander (cough, cough) said he wouldn't be first team All-ACC. There are still 2 games left to play, but if Hurt even comes close to 20ppg in those games, I would think he's a first team lock.

2. Steward and Roach had tough outings. Looking at the box score, one wishes just one of those misses had gone in during regulation. Steward played a bit better down the stretch, and he did hit those FTs with 2 minutes left. The guy can score, but it just didn't happen this game. He wasn't a shrinking violet, though. Sure, I wish some of those shots had gone to Hurt instead, but the guy does have a scorer's mentality.

3. Jones is a friggin' baller. I really was hoping/dreaming that they'd do a box-and-one with JGold on him. It would have protected Hurt from fouls and put our best defender on Jones. But that's a tricky D to play if it hasn't been practiced. If Goldwire stays, I hope the staff thinks putting that in practice. Speaking of that, I hope he does stay for another year. Seniors deserve a real senior night.

4. That 3 by Slazinski to start OT was huge. It wasn't expected and gave Ville a huge boost. Duke was swimming upstream from that point on. If they did a "Turning Point" like on NFL TV, I think that was it.

5. Duke is not out of the NCAA tourney running. If they win out this week, plus a game in the ACC tourney, I think they have a strong shot to be in. 7-3 down the stretch isn't bad for a bubble team (two wins in the tourney, and they'd be 8-2 in their last 10). Wins over UVA, Cuse, Tech, Carolina and even State (they are coming on as well) would look pretty good. As much as the loss hurts, it's not a killer. Someone who knows, what's better NET-wise, winning vs. Ville at home or winning at Tech? I'm guessing it's the latter (I could be wrong). Anyway what did people expect, that they'd go undefeated in their last 10?... Of course, they have to win those games. But do people really think they can't? I remain a believer.

9F

[jv001]

It's taken me a full day+ to come to this board and read up. As expected, there's some angst, blame, etc. Yeah, I was upset about the loss, too. Duke had been on a roll, playing so well. So the loss took some of the wind out of my sails, too. But after working through the loss, here are some thoughts. Most aren't really new, just need to get them off my chest.

1. Man, Hurt was on fire. He's been good all year, but his fight inside to score really was impressive. I just wished Duke would have somehow found a way (any way) to get him the ball more during those last 2 minutes in regulation... I scoffed earlier this year when the erudite Cory Alexander (cough, cough) said he wouldn't be first team All-ACC. There are still 2 games left to play, but if Hurt even comes close to 20ppg in those games, I would think he's a first team lock.

2. Steward and Roach had tough outings. Looking at the box score, one wishes just one of those misses had gone in during regulation. Steward played a bit better down the stretch, and he did hit those FTs with 2 minutes left. The guy can score, but it just didn't happen this game. He wasn't a shrinking violet, though. Sure, I wish some of those shots had gone to Hurt instead, but the guy does have a scorer's mentality.

3. Jones is a friggin' baller. I really was hoping/dreaming that they'd do a box-and-one with JGold on him. It would have protected Hurt from fouls and put our best defender on Jones. But that's a tricky D to play if it hasn't been practiced. If Goldwire stays, I hope the staff thinks putting that in practice. Speaking of that, I hope he does stay for another year. Seniors deserve a real senior night.

4. That 3 by Slazinski to start OT was huge. It wasn't expected and gave Ville a huge boost. Duke was swimming upstream from that point on. If they did a "Turning Point" like on NFL TV, I think that was it.

5. Duke is not out of the NCAA tourney running. If they win out this week, plus a game in the ACC tourney, I think they have a strong shot to be in. 7-3 down the stretch isn't bad for a bubble team (two wins in the tourney, and they'd be 8-2 in their last 10). Wins over UVA, Cuse, Tech, Carolina and even State (they are coming on as well) would look pretty good. As much as the loss hurts, it's not a killer. Someone who knows, what's better NET-wise, winning vs. Ville at home or winning at Tech? I'm guessing it's the latter (I could be wrong). Anyway what did people expect, that they'd go undefeated in their last 10?... Of course, they have to win those games. But do people really think they can't? I remain a believer.

9F

As I was reading Mitch 84's post/thread on the 81 Duke senior win over the cheats, I remembered how hard I rooted for the Duke teams during the lean years. Through the 70s and early 80s Duke didn't always have good teams but I rooted hard for them anyway. This years team reminds me of some of those teams. Good but not good enough to be in the top 25. I sometimes have to remind myself that these kids are not far removed from high school and haven't figured out the college game yet. Matter of fact most haven't even figured life out yet. Win or lose, I'm a Duke fan for life. I just hope I don't begin to blame the refs for every loss like I did back in the day.

GoDuke!

[WVDUKEFAN]

I'm not going to bash Goldwire. All I'm going to say is we did better in the past few games w/ him coming off the bench.

[uh_no]

I'm not going to bash Goldwire. All I'm going to say is we did better in the past few games w/ him coming off the bench.

all our guards we're awful. putting this on goldwire is silly.

[DrChainsaw]

all our guards we're awful. putting this on goldwire is silly.

Agree. I think Goldwire does do well off the bench, but the team didn't play its best against Louisville. At times, it reminded me of the JJ days when the team sort of stood around and waited for him to do something. And then at other times, it didn't look as though they were trying to get the ball to Hurt. I remember one play at the end, when DJ drove to the basket and Hurt was open for a 3. The announcers praised DJ for driving, but I think he should have seen and connected with Hurt.

Overall, a tough outing. Next game.

[Kedsy]

Our guards' court vision and our guys playing well together as a team and knowing what to do when the action became intense and the game was on the line didn't seem to be problems in the four previous games. Weren't we pretty good with the game on the line vs. Virginia, for instance? It's amazing how much better the whole thing looks when shots go down vs. when they don't. Yeah, Louisville was more physical than we were for sure, but literally had one more shot gone down during regulation, we win the game and we're not having this discussion.

Tommy has hit the proverbial nail on the head. The difference between a 1-point win and a 1-point loss may be more than two points, but it's not so much more as many on this board try to make it.

A strong statistical argument can be made that -- other than three-point shooting -- we played better offense in this game than we did against Virginia (even adjusted, though according to Pomeroy, Virginia's defensive prowess and Louisville's are more or less equivalent). But after the Virginia game nobody around here was complaining about our guards' vision or ability to play as a team. It wasn't like the quality of our three-point shots seemed much different in the two games, either. We simply made them in one game and missed them in the other. Why can't we just leave it at that?

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Tommy has hit the proverbial nail on the head. The difference between a 1-point win and a 1-point loss may be more than two points, but it's not so much more as many on this board try to make it.

A strong statistical argument can be made that -- other than three-point shooting -- we played better offense in this game than we did against Virginia (even adjusted, though according to Pomeroy, Virginia's defensive prowess and Louisville's are more or less equivalent). But after the Virginia game nobody around here was complaining about our guards' vision or ability to play as a team. It wasn't like the quality of our three-point shots seemed much different in the two games, either. We simply made them in one game and missed them in the other. Why can't we just leave it at that?

Because that's not as gratifying as "hot takes" like when we win by one point "we are unbeatable know" "Mark Williams better not play his way into the lottery" and "K's genius had done it again!" versus after we lose by one point "K is senile and can't coach" "Wendell Moore is a bum" and "I stopped watching in the first half when we were down, but here's what we should have done differently."

I've enjoyed the late part of this season. It's fun to watch the kids have some success and see them buy into Ks systems. It's great to see the light switches go on for guys like Williams.

In the game chat and threads I've had my intelligence and honesty questioned and received incredulous responses when I suggest that this team is fun, is learning, and is getting better. I would wager that if you polled this board a month ago, most of us would be delighted to be where we are right now.

If you can't watch, appreciate, and have fun - why are you here to begin with?

[kako]

As I was reading Mitch 84's post/thread on the 81 Duke senior win over the cheats, I remembered how hard I rooted for the Duke teams during the lean years. Through the 70s and early 80s Duke didn't always have good teams but I rooted hard for them anyway. This years team reminds me of some of those teams. Good but not good enough to be in the top 25. I sometimes have to remind myself that these kids are not far removed from high school and haven't figured out the college game yet. Matter of fact most haven't even figured life out yet. Win or lose, I'm a Duke fan for life. I just hope I don't begin to blame the refs for every loss like I did back in the day.

GoDuke!

Yeah, the Banks' shot was the Laettner shot before the Laettner shot. And one of my biggest thrills in Cameron was watching Duke in '82 beat Clemson in triple-OT. Both teams were at the bottom of the ACC standings, but that game was heart-stopping. Vince Taylor came up huge. Other than wins in the tournament or wins over Carolina, it's still the biggest win in my Duke soul.

As a fan, it's easy to get accustomed to your biggest worry being whether Duke is a #1 seed in the East or the West. It's easy to grow entitled and to get expectations. And when winning the NCAA tourney is a realistic thought on Day 1, it's also easy to get overly disappointed when it doesn't happen. And when it doesn't happen so obviously as this, it's tough. I've set my goals differently since mid-season. At first it was just to get 10 wins. Then it was just to have a winning season (still not definite, but looking good). Next is beating UNC on Saturday (not overlooking Tech, but UNC is UNC). And hopefully after that, it's making the NCAA tourney. If that happens, anything else is gravy. Some RL friends of mine have said I've lowered my standards, but it's a funny way to look at it. The standard has never been to win a natty. It's to play hard, compete and have the chance to win, all while doing it honorably (looking at you, Chapel Hill). I'm a believer in K. Sure, he has his faults. And no, he's not Nostradamus and can't predict everything that will happen with each and every lineup or sub he puts in. But he wins more often than anyone else has in NCAAMB. He's done so at the college level and Olympic level (getting star pro athletes to put their egos aside for their country is no small feat). I will be so happy but not be so surprised if he gets this team to pull this off and make the national tournament. Because this team now competes and doesn't lay down. I trust their focus is now on the two remaining must-win regular season games. Their at-large hopes rest on winning them both.

9F

[Phredd3]

The Duke player kicked the ball, after which the ref indicated that Louisville could still run the baseline. Coach K questioned it but I don’t know if that was the correct ruling or not. Duke kicking the ball shouldn’t cause the team to lose the advantage of running the baseline in my opinion.

However, it’s totally not true that the Louisville player “ran back and forth” before passing it in. From memory, he kind of shuffled his feet or maybe took a couple steps but he did not run back and forth.

The applicable rule is this one:

Art. 6. After a successful goal or goaltending/basket interference violation as
listed in Rule 7-3.1.c:
a. The team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the
end of the court where the goal was made, and the thrower-in may move
along the end line and make the throw-in from any point out of bounds
on the end line. The thrower-in may also move along the end line when
the following occurs:
1. A common foul is committed near the end line before the bonus is in
effect;
2. A flagrant 1 or 2 personal by the defensive team is committed near the
end line;
3. The ball is intentionally kicked by the defensive team along the end
line during the throw-in, or
4. A timeout is granted.

Obviously, the ref here was absolutely correct.

As for the game, I think was the game we most had to win. Yes, we could still play our way into the Tournament, but beating both GT and UNC on their home floors as a way to go 2-of-3 to close the regular season is much, much harder than beating Louisville at home and then having only to win 1 of the last 2. Without taking both games, we'll need help to get into the tournament. Either we will need it in the form of ACCT luck (a series of poor performances from opponents or potential opponents who have proven to be better than we are - i.e. the team will need to significantly over-perform their seed), or important, unpredictable losses from not just one but a number of other bubble teams, or some combination of the two.

CAN we still get in? Sure. Will we? It's a lot less likely now than it was Saturday morning. Will I be rooting for them to do exactly that? Well, duh.

[907bluedevils]

It was driving me nuts to not to watch and Hurt not even touch the ball at some portions late in the game and OT. The night he was having, he should atleast get a touch every time down.

[Ultrarunner]

Because that's not as gratifying as "hot takes" like when we win by one point "we are unbeatable know" "Mark Williams better not play his way into the lottery" and "K's genius had done it again!" versus after we lose by one point "K is senile and can't coach" "Wendell Moore is a bum" and "I stopped watching in the first half when we were down, but here's what we should have done differently."

I've enjoyed the late part of this season. It's fun to watch the kids have some success and see them buy into Ks systems. It's great to see the light switches go on for guys like Williams.

In the game chat and threads I've had my intelligence and honesty questioned and received incredulous responses when I suggest that this team is fun, is learning, and is getting better. I would wager that if you polled this board a month ago, most of us would be delighted to be where we are right now.

If you can't watch, appreciate, and have fun - why are you here to begin with?

The puns?
(Though those have been lacking this season. Puns don't pair well with the rending of garments.)

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

The puns?
(Though those have been lacking this season. Puns don't pair well with the rending of garments.)

I am onboard for puns too!

[uh_no]

I am onboard for puns too!

yeah sometimes the puns can sail off into the distance, though...or perhaps go off the rails.

[rsvman]

yeah sometimes the puns can sail off into the distance, though...or perhaps go off the rails.

You are a star. Board rules won't allow me to comment further.













(See what I did there?)

[DukieInBrasil]

It was driving me nuts to not to watch and Hurt not even touch the ball at some portions late in the game and OT. The night he was having, he should atleast get a touch every time down.

It seems to be a lesson this team hasn't fully absorbed yet. I get that everyone on the team was The Man on their HS team, but this ain't HS no more. JGold occasionally takes an ill-advised shot, but in general is looking to get people the ball, even if he doesn't have some of the physical attributes to be a dynamic PG. His court vision also isn't the best so he misses some opportunities, but in general he's usually trying to get better scoring chances for the team. None of Roach, Steward or Moore are particularly skilled at finding the best scoring chance for the team.

[hustleplays]

Tommy has hit the proverbial nail on the head. The difference between a 1-point win and a 1-point loss may be more than two points, but it's not so much more as many on this board try to make it.

A strong statistical argument can be made that -- other than three-point shooting -- we played better offense in this game than we did against Virginia (even adjusted, though according to Pomeroy, Virginia's defensive prowess and Louisville's are more or less equivalent). But after the Virginia game nobody around here was complaining about our guards' vision or ability to play as a team. It wasn't like the quality of our three-point shots seemed much different in the two games, either. We simply made them in one game and missed them in the other. Why can't we just leave it at that?

I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy and Kedsy's central points: [1] Sometimes, it's a matter of one or two shots falling or not falling, and [2] the FINAL SCORE, whether for us or against us, even though maybe by just one point or two, spawns one of two epochally contrasting binary narratives: The Kingdom Is Upon Us, or, All Is Lost. Then we backfill the reasons.

Drives me mildly nuts when on ESPN's Half Time Report there will be learned analysis about why we were up and down by several points, and I keep thinking, but we [or our opponents] made or missed several wide open shots. Voila!

That said, two pretty obvious caveats: [1] Doing all the other basketball things well or poorly, on O & D, sometimes can be a significant factor in determining the result -- fewer TOs can overcome a couple of missed shots. Helping on D, etc. [2] Shooting doesn't occur in a vacuum. Game shots are different than practice shots. After Louisville, Coach K said that our young guards were "knocked back" by the physicality and toughness of the Cardinals. That our frosh guards still hadn't learned what it takes to win consistently in the ACC. Surely our guards' being "knocked back" affected their shooting.

[tommy]

I wholeheartedly agree with Tommy and Kedsy's central points: [1] Sometimes, it's a matter of one or two shots falling or not falling, and [2] the FINAL SCORE, whether for us or against us, even though maybe by just one point or two, spawns one of two epochally contrasting binary narratives: The Kingdom Is Upon Us, or, All Is Lost. Then we backfill the reasons.

Drives me mildly nuts when on ESPN's Half Time Report there will be learned analysis about why we were up and down by several points, and I keep thinking, but we [or our opponents] made or missed several wide open shots. Voila!

That said, two pretty obvious caveats: [1] Doing all the other basketball things well or poorly, on O & D, sometimes can be a significant factor in determining the result -- fewer TOs can overcome a couple of missed shots. Helping on D, etc. [2] Shooting doesn't occur in a vacuum. Game shots are different than practice shots. After Louisville, Coach K said that our young guards were "knocked back" by the physicality and toughness of the Cardinals. That our frosh guards still hadn't learned what it takes to win consistently in the ACC. Surely our guards' being "knocked back" affected their shooting.

I always scratch my head when Coach K says we were "knocked back." It's a phrase he has used post game at least a few times this year, and many times in the past. To me, being "knocked back" implies some sort of surprise. Like if you're knocked back by the opponent's physicality because you weren't expecting it or weren't prepared for it. Maybe he doesn't mean to imply surprise but that's what it always sounds like to me. And if he does mean that, well why are we being surprised at this point in the season? This was our 16th ACC game, and our second vs. Louisville, and I think the guys should be expecting a level of physicality by this point, and they should be expecting it from the jump. Certainly against a team we've already played and lost to. So how bout no more getting knocked back? How bout we come out vs GTech tonight ready for physicality, ready for speed, and how bout we do the knocking back!? Walter White style . . .

[Albar33]

that Carlik is still some player - 0 turnovers for 25/6/4!

[hustleplays]

I always scratch my head when Coach K says we were "knocked back." It's a phrase he has used post game at least a few times this year, and many times in the past. To me, being "knocked back" implies some sort of surprise. Like if you're knocked back by the opponent's physicality because you weren't expecting it or weren't prepared for it. Maybe he doesn't mean to imply surprise but that's what it always sounds like to me. And if he does mean that, well why are we being surprised at this point in the season? This was our 16th ACC game, and our second vs. Louisville, and I think the guys should be expecting a level of physicality by this point, and they should be expecting it from the jump. Certainly against a team we've already played and lost to. So how bout no more getting knocked back? How bout we come out vs GTech tonight ready for physicality, ready for speed, and how bout we do the knocking back!? Walter White style . . .

Tommy, I know, I'm with you. It seems to be an important concept for K. I hadn't focused as much on the surprise factor for the players, but I agree with you that it's surprising that by now, our players can't match the physicality even if they are surprised. But, as you say, how could our players be surprised at this point? Pardon my naïveté, but can't our practices simulate high physicality to a large degree?

Yes, how about us doing the knocking back. At least just play tough, together and poised. I'm really hoping for our best game, W or L, but of course would love the W.