PlagueWatch 2020-23 - Coronavirus

[Channing]

Do we actually know this?

https://www.wral.com/coronavirus/flu...n-nc/20102856/

In North Carolina, it appears that dozens of people per day are dying of Covid (and Omicron is dominant), while 7 people have died of flu this flu season.

I fully expect that Covid cases are going to decrease substantially over the next few weeks, and hospitalization numbers will probably be close behind. Come Spring, I actually expect that we'll see a move towards normalcy. I just don't understand why so many people are pushing for it now, when massive numbers of people are infected, hospitalized, and (yes) dying.

It’s an interesting article. I didn’t see it covered, but my presumption is that of the dozens a day dying in NC, the majority were unvaccinated. Further, we know from the CDC that the super vast majority of Covid deaths (with or of) had at least 4 significant accompanying comorbidities. So, to my earlier point, should it be incumbent on people to
protect themselves and incumbent on those persons at high risk to wear N95s and limit their interaction or should it be incumbent on everyone else to mitigate the risk for them? I know what I want the answer to be but I honestly don’t know the right answer.

[johnb]

Beer took 12 years to get to 1000 pages

Longest Thread Ever? 10 years.

Coronavirus? 2 years…

[Stray Gator]

We can agree to disagree on the last paragraph. Again, the death of a child is unimaginable - my son has Covid right now and the thought crept into my mind when he was diagnosed. Talking about “only” x deaths in children is horrible. But we still let kids ride in cars even though there are probably about the same number of deaths from car accidents in kids as from COVID (pure speculation on my part). Again - is the policy for Covid zero? Is the policy to sacrifice IQ points of kids in exchange for being masked at school forever? Policy makers have incredibly difficult jobs in this respect - I’m glad it’s not my job. But if someone wants to protect their child 100% they should have the option for remote learning and if I want my child to learn without a mask, that should be my prerogative.

I believe it's now well established that the transmissibility of COVID is reduced to some extent if one of two people are wearing a mask, but is reduced significantly more if both are wearing a mask. Moreover, the CDC "recommends universal indoor masking by students, staff members, faculty, and visitors in kindergarten through grade 12 (K–12) schools, regardless of vaccination status, to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19." Therefore, assuming that we're dealing with children in public schools, if you can exercise your prerogative to send your child to school without a mask, then other parents who believe, consistent with the CDC recommendation, that children should wear masks to protect themselves and their classmates, are forced to choose between exposing their child to a higher risk by sending them to school, where they will be interacting with your unmasked child, or keeping their child at home.

You suggest that the proper resolution is to let your unmasked child enjoy the benefits of attending school while the more cautious parent must bear the burdens associated with requiring their child to be schooled remotely, which include arranging for a parent or other supervisory adult to remain present in the home throughout the day and accepting the known educational and social deficiencies of remote learning -- not to mention being deprived of equal access to the school and related resources for which that parent is also paying taxes. Why should the parents who want to comply with the masking recommendations of public health authorities be forced to bear the heavier burden? Why shouldn't those who want to disregard the CDC recommendation and exercise their prerogative to let their children learn without a mask be the ones who are obligated to have their children taught remotely or enroll them in a private school that does not require masking? Is there a "fair" way to resolve these differing positions short of creating parallel public school systems -- one for the masked and another for the unmasked? The rebirth of "separate but equal" in a new context?

[johnb]

I believe it's now well established that the transmissibility of COVID is reduced to some extent if one of two people are wearing a mask, but is reduced significantly more if both are wearing a mask. Moreover, the CDC "recommends universal indoor masking by students, staff members, faculty, and visitors in kindergarten through grade 12 (K–12) schools, regardless of vaccination status, to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19." Therefore, assuming that we're dealing with children in public schools, if you can exercise your prerogative to send your child to school without a mask, then other parents who believe, consistent with the CDC recommendation, that children should wear masks to protect themselves and their classmates, are forced to choose between exposing their child to a higher risk by sending them to school, where they will be interacting with your unmasked child, or keeping their child at home.

You suggest that the proper resolution is to let your unmasked child enjoy the benefits of attending school while the more cautious parent must bear the burdens associated with requiring their child to be schooled remotely, which include arranging for a parent or other supervisory adult to remain present in the home throughout the day and accepting the known educational and social deficiencies of remote learning -- not to mention being deprived of equal access to the school and related resources for which that parent is also paying taxes. Why should the parents who want to comply with the masking recommendations of public health authorities be forced to bear the heavier burden? Why shouldn't those who want to disregard the CDC recommendation and exercise their prerogative to let their children learn without a mask be the ones who are obligated to have their children taught remotely or enroll them in a private school that does not require masking? Is there a "fair" way to resolve these differing positions short of creating parallel public school systems -- one for the masked and another for the unmasked? The rebirth of "separate but equal" in a new context?

Well said! I feel like I just got a legal consultation for free!

[Bostondevil]

I don’t want to down play death in any respect. Death of anyone is tragic and death of a child is even more so. But what are we going to do about it? Are we going to stick with the current paralysis? To be clear, I am suggesting that we let those who want back to normal go there and those who wish to remain cautious to stay there. I don’t have the list - what we’re the other 9 of the top ten causes of death in kids under 18 - are we going to raise restrictions there? We are not reaching Covid zero and I struggle to understand why we are so reticent to get back to a reasonable sense of normalcy. Why must the kids be the only ones (along with those in airplanes) that have this constant mask mandate? Why am I stuck in a foreign country for two weeks if I test positive for Omicron Covid but not the flu - when we know the flu is materially more harmful than the Omicron?

One thing I learned as a PPS major is that making policy is hard. The individual stories are tough and difficult but when reviewed in the context of the entire country do they really justify the continued restrictions on everyone? I guess that’s a personal question for everyone but in case it’s not apparent I believe we’ve reached the point, 2 years in, where everyone needs to be responsible for their own choices and decisions.

The only caveat in my mind is an overburdened healthcare system, but I think we are going to need a new way to think about Covid and medical care as well. More clinics and outpatient centers clear of hospitals and less panic using the ER as a primary care physician.

I believe, if you read my post again, I say that I would support removing restrictions when we can be reasonably sure that every sick child who needs a hospital bed can get one. OK, I said we could start talking about removing restrictions, but I meant removing them, and by removing them, I mean face masks. I truly believe that will happen by the end of April. Employers who have instituted vaccine mandates should keep them and they should add flu shots to the list. Vaccine mandates will go a long way towards easing the burdens on the healthcare system. Unfortunately, the pandemic has revealed how much work needs to be done to shore up our healthcare system. We were not ready for this pandemic, we are even less prepared for the next one. Given the numbers of people who have left the healthcare workforce, we aren't getting back to pre-pandemic levels of care anytime soon without significant government intervention which seems unlikely.

Stick with the current paralysis? In what way are we paralyzed? Yes, we are limiting some activities to vaccinated people, but if you are vaccinated, what limitations are you facing other than mask wearing? Kids are not the only ones with the constant mask mandate, at least in some states, but I do agree that schools really ought to be the first place that we remove them. It's not that the country or even the world is reticent to get back to a reasonable sense of normalcy, it's that lots of people can't handle change. We aren't going back to 2019. Wherever we land, it won't ever be 2019 again.

[cato]

Beer took 12 years to get to 1000 pages

Longest Thread Ever? 10 years.

Coronavirus? 2 years…

Covid is the hare and beer is the tortoise. I’ve got my money on beer in the long run.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Beer took 12 years to get to 1000 pages

Longest Thread Ever? 10 years.

Coronavirus? 2 years…

I mean...

(sigh)

This thread has gone viral.

[freshmanjs]

I believe, if you read my post again, I say that I would support removing restrictions when we can be reasonably sure that every sick child who needs a hospital bed can get one. OK, I said we could start talking about removing restrictions, but I meant removing them, and by removing them, I mean face masks. I truly believe that will happen by the end of April. Employers who have instituted vaccine mandates should keep them and they should add flu shots to the list. Vaccine mandates will go a long way towards easing the burdens on the healthcare system. Unfortunately, the pandemic has revealed how much work needs to be done to shore up our healthcare system. We were not ready for this pandemic, we are even less prepared for the next one. Given the numbers of people who have left the healthcare workforce, we aren't getting back to pre-pandemic levels of care anytime soon without significant government intervention which seems unlikely.

Stick with the current paralysis? In what way are we paralyzed? Yes, we are limiting some activities to vaccinated people, but if you are vaccinated, what limitations are you facing other than mask wearing? Kids are not the only ones with the constant mask mandate, at least in some states, but I do agree that schools really ought to be the first place that we remove them. It's not that the country or even the world is reticent to get back to a reasonable sense of normalcy, it's that lots of people can't handle change. We aren't going back to 2019. Wherever we land, it won't ever be 2019 again.

Restrictions: my daughter is not allowed to attend classes in person. No club meetings or any social gatherings allowed. Dining halls are grab and go only in the middle of Boston winter. I am not allowed to work in a normal office with colleagues. All in person work conferences and events are still remote for me. I could go on. College admissions visits for my younger child either don’t exist or are severely limited. There are quite a lot of limitations for me and my family. I’m kind of shocked, tbh, that you are saying there are no limitations right now.

[bundabergdevil]

Restrictions: my daughter is not allowed to attend classes in person. No club meetings or any social gatherings allowed. Dining halls are grab and go only in the middle of Boston winter. I am not allowed to work in a normal office with colleagues. All in person work conferences and events are still remote for me. I could go on. College admissions visits for my younger child either don’t exist or are severely limited. There are quite a lot of limitations for me and my family. I’m kind of shocked, tbh, that you are saying there are no limitations right now.

There are no state restrictions anymore in my state that I see. Lots of decisions have been made by businesses or localities but I’d distinguish between the nature of restrictions.

My company for example isn’t required to have employees wear masks on campus or maintain remote work but it chooses to do so.

[wavedukefan70s]

Restrictions: my daughter is not allowed to attend classes in person. No club meetings or any social gatherings allowed. Dining halls are grab and go only in the middle of Boston winter. I am not allowed to work in a normal office with colleagues. All in person work conferences and events are still remote for me. I could go on. College admissions visits for my younger child either don’t exist or are severely limited. There are quite a lot of limitations for me and my family. I’m kind of shocked, tbh, that you are saying there are no limitations right now.

Where i live its a free for all. With the occasional threat to go virtual.
No masks required except a few doctors offices.
Probably 40% wear masks .which is up since new strain .
A bill has been proposed to make it illeagal to ask about vaccination status.
Id say none cares around charleston sc area.
We only have 5 million in this state.shouldnt take to long to go through every one.thats the only positive i can see.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Where i live its a free for all. With the occasional threat to go virtual.
No masks required except a few doctors offices.
Probably 40% wear masks .which is up since new strain .
A bill has been proposed to make it illeagal to ask about vaccination status.
Id say none cares around charleston sc area.
We only have 5 million in this state.shouldnt take to long to go through every one.thats the only positive i can see.

Your neighboring state winces...

[OldPhiKap]

Where i live its a free for all. With the occasional threat to go virtual.
No masks required except a few doctors offices.
Probably 40% wear masks .which is up since new strain .
A bill has been proposed to make it illeagal to ask about vaccination status.
Id say none cares around charleston sc area.
We only have 5 million in this state.shouldnt take to long to go through every one.thats the only positive i can see.

Your neighboring state winces...

While my neighboring state says “hold my beer.”

[freshmanjs]

There are no state restrictions anymore in my state that I see. Lots of decisions have been made by businesses or localities but I’d distinguish between the nature of restrictions.

My company for example isn’t required to have employees wear masks on campus or maintain remote work but it chooses to do so.

Bostondevil wasn’t saying there are no state restrictions. She was saying there are no limitations on life other than mask wearing for vaccinated people. That just isn’t true. Whether you think the current limitations are reasonable or not, please don’t deny that they exist.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bostondevil wasn’t saying there are no state restrictions. She was saying there are no limitations on life other than mask wearing for vaccinated people. That just isn’t true. Whether you think the current limitations are reasonable or not, please don’t deny that they exist.

I'm not sure what you are advocating for then. Do you think companies/institutions shouldn't be allowed to make their own rules for the safety and health of workers/clients?

The state isn't going to step in and say places must eliminate remote work and make people eat in cafeterias.

[MChambers]

I believe, if you read my post again, I say that I would support removing restrictions when we can be reasonably sure that every sick child who needs a hospital bed can get one. OK, I said we could start talking about removing restrictions, but I meant removing them, and by removing them, I mean face masks. I truly believe that will happen by the end of April. Employers who have instituted vaccine mandates should keep them and they should add flu shots to the list. Vaccine mandates will go a long way towards easing the burdens on the healthcare system. Unfortunately, the pandemic has revealed how much work needs to be done to shore up our healthcare system. We were not ready for this pandemic, we are even less prepared for the next one. Given the numbers of people who have left the healthcare workforce, we aren't getting back to pre-pandemic levels of care anytime soon without significant government intervention which seems unlikely.

Stick with the current paralysis? In what way are we paralyzed? Yes, we are limiting some activities to vaccinated people, but if you are vaccinated, what limitations are you facing other than mask wearing? Kids are not the only ones with the constant mask mandate, at least in some states, but I do agree that schools really ought to be the first place that we remove them. It's not that the country or even the world is reticent to get back to a reasonable sense of normalcy, it's that lots of people can't handle change. We aren't going back to 2019. Wherever we land, it won't ever be 2019 again.

I agree completely.

[freshmanjs]

I'm not sure what you are advocating for then. Do you think companies/institutions shouldn't be allowed to make their own rules for the safety and health of workers/clients?

The state isn't going to step in and say places must eliminate remote work and make people eat in cafeterias.

I didn’t say anything like that. No clue where you are getting that from

Bostondevil said there are no limitations currently for vaccinated people other than mask wearing. I was simply responding to that statement, saying that it isn’t true.

[freshmanjs]

I agree completely.

You agree that there are no limitations for vaccinated people other than mask wearing? This feels like a gaslighting.

[bundabergdevil]

Bostondevil wasn’t saying there are no state restrictions. She was saying there are no limitations on life other than mask wearing for vaccinated people. That just isn’t true. Whether you think the current limitations are reasonable or not, please don’t deny that they exist.

I didn't deny limitations exist, I even provided examples in my post so I'm not sure why you would say that. BD said, "I say that I would support removing restrictions when we can be reasonably sure that every sick child who needs a hospital bed can get one. OK, I said we could start talking about removing restrictions, but I meant removing them, and by removing them, I mean face masks."


True, she also used 'limitations' later, and you mostly responded on the basis of personal limitations. I was noting that we should distinguish between a restriction and a limitation. Various non-governmental institutions setting their own policy is not a restriction. As far as I can tell, there are no remaining state restrictions in my state but many places have their own policies, which does continue to create limitations to living la vida pre-COVID.

[freshmanjs]

I didn't deny limitations exist, I even provided examples in my post so I'm not sure why you would say that. BD said, "I say that I would support removing restrictions when we can be reasonably sure that every sick child who needs a hospital bed can get one. OK, I said we could start talking about removing restrictions, but I meant removing them, and by removing them, I mean face masks."


True, she also used 'limitations' later, and you mostly responded on the basis of personal limitations. I was noting that we should distinguish between a restriction and a limitation. Various non-governmental institutions setting their own policy is not a restriction. As far as I can tell, there are no remaining state restrictions in my state but many places have their own policies, which does continue to create limitations to living la vida pre-COVID.

She also said “ Yes, we are limiting some activities to vaccinated people, but if you are vaccinated, what limitations are you facing other than mask wearing?”

Certainly, I agree that most current limitations are not driven by government requirements. I don’t find that distinction particularly useful, but I understand that it’s important to you.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

She also said “ Yes, we are limiting some activities to vaccinated people, but if you are vaccinated, what limitations are you facing other than mask wearing?”

Certainly, I agree that most current limitations are not driven by government requirements. I don’t find that distinction particularly useful, but I understand that it’s important to you.

Well, it's the only entity that we can hold accountable. That's my only point.

If we get to a point where we feel masks are unnecessary, we can tell the government that we think it's time to make these changes.

If your daughter's first college choice wants to keep their campus in a bubble, that's their choice. I imagine parents of current students are vastly in favor of this.

If your point is simply pondering that it will be lovey when things are normal again, sure, of course, anyone would agree with that

If your point is frustration that it is taking a long time to get back to normal - I agree again!

If you are frustrated with the entities that are not yet back to normal - that's where I disagree.