William Avery

[DukeCO2009]

As I was reading DBR's piece on John Wall, I came across the following lines:

Moreover, we think that after nearly 30 years of building credibility Coach K has earned the right to say that a particular player is worth the risk. Does it always work out? Clearly not - William Avery is a good example of the wager gone bad. But he’s an exception.

How was Avery a "wager gone bad"? He was successful starting as a freshman (remember the Kentucky Shot Volume 2 that almost was?), then averaged something like 15 and 5 his sophomore year on the way to a title game appearance. He never, to my knowledge got in any trouble while in school, and was drafted just outside the lottery. OK, he was a bust, but he's had a reasonably successful career in Europe. Since when does failing to pan out in the League make you a "wager gone bad", anyway? Using that logic, it's too bad we ever "wagered" on Amaker, Hurley, T. Hill, Langdon, JWill, Shelden, etc. Are people here still bitter that he went pro against K's wishes? If so, that's pretty petty, don't ya think? Avery was a valuable contributor to Duke basketball. I'd love to hear the rationale behind DBR's remarks.

[Matches]

I think they were referring to his academic performance.

[DukeCO2009]

I think they were referring to his academic performance.

OK, so he didn't make straight A's and go to all of his classes. Neither did most of us here. He didn't flunk out, which is good enough for me. I trust that he would have been suspended had his grades fallen below a certain level. He had obviously planned to go pro early second semester of his sophomore year, but I can't fault a guy from his background wanting to go where the money lures him. He probably spent more time in class than I did my sophomore year, and I turned out just fine. Not bragging--just saying.

[roywhite]

As I was reading DBR's piece on John Wall, I came across the following lines:



How was Avery a "wager gone bad"? He was successful starting as a freshman (remember the Kentucky Shot Volume 2 that almost was?), then averaged something like 15 and 5 his sophomore year on the way to a title game appearance. He never, to my knowledge got in any trouble while in school, and was drafted just outside the lottery. OK, he was a bust, but he's had a reasonably successful career in Europe. Since when does failing to pan out in the League make you a "wager gone bad", anyway? Using that logic, it's too bad we ever "wagered" on Amaker, Hurley, T. Hill, Langdon, JWill, Shelden, etc. Are people here still bitter that he went pro against K's wishes? If so, that's pretty petty, don't ya think? Avery was a valuable contributor to Duke basketball. I'd love to hear the rationale behind DBR's remarks.

The other players you reference were 4-year guys, with the exception of Jason Williams who was a 3-year player and graduated.

I think the point is that Avery made a poor decision in leaving when he did; I guess that is still more an opinion than an outright fact, but it didn't work out real well with respect to not being in the NBA very long.

[DukeCO2009]

The other players you reference were 4-year guys, with the exception of Jason Williams who was a 3-year player and graduated.

I think the point is that Avery made a poor decision in leaving when he did; I guess that is still more an opinion than an outright fact, but it didn't work out real well with respect to not being in the NBA very long.

Understood. Calling him a "wager gone bad", though, is silly. He was an integral part of one of the greatest teams in NCAA history. Without him, that team would not have reached the heights it did. He was the only true point guard on the roster besides Jay Heaps. No reason for DBR to throw in such a cheap shot.

[Matches]

I think the point is that Avery made a poor decision in leaving when he did; I guess that is still more an opinion than an outright fact, but it didn't work out real well with respect to not being in the NBA very long.

That Avery was an NBA bust is really not disputed - clearly he was.

Whether he made the wrong decision in coming out - very debateable. He made several million dollars during his three years in the NBA. One can argue he might have developed differently/ better had he remained at Duke another year, but that's speculative. We really will never know whether he cost himself money by leaving early.

I've always understand that he was in severe academic straits by the end of his sophomore season, though, so he may not have had a real choice. Perhaps the academic straits came about because he knew he was leaving - I do not know. Kind of a chicken/ egg thing.

[gep]

I've always understand that he was in severe academic straits by the end of his sophomore season, though, so he may not have had a real choice. Perhaps the academic straits came about because he knew he was leaving - I do not know. Kind of a chicken/ egg thing.

This is also my vague recollection... that he probably wouldn't have been academically eligible had he stayed. This is what I thought DBR was alluding to by making that statement... that his problem was academic, not basketball player, whether he stayed or not.

Of course, C-Well and Dockery were those with "good" results

[DukeCO2009]

This is also my vague recollection... that he probably wouldn't have been academically eligible had he stayed. This is what I thought DBR was alluding to by making that statement... that his problem was academic, not basketball player, whether he stayed or not.

Of course, C-Well and Dockery were those with "good" results

Again, I see the academic point. I just don't understand why that makes him a "wager gone bad", because he was quite valuable to Duke's program and did nothing to cause harm to the univerisity.

[johaad]

This is a similar question I have about McRoberts. A lot of people on here really seem to dislike him. I wasn't on the board at the time of McRoberts. What is the story with him being disliked?

[SupaDave]

This is a similar question I have about McRoberts. A lot of people on here really seem to dislike him. I wasn't on the board at the time of McRoberts. What is the story with him being disliked?

You need to use the "search" feature and you'll get all you can handle...

[Matches]

This is a similar question I have about McRoberts. A lot of people on here really seem to dislike him. I wasn't on the board at the time of McRoberts. What is the story with him being disliked?

Heavily rumored to be a negative presence in the locker room.

Poor body language on the court didn't help the perception of him either.

[DukeCO2009]

You need to use the "search" feature and you'll get all you can handle...

I PM-ed him. I lived in Josh's dorm freshman year. I won't post what I know on the board because it isn't the place to divulge relatively personal details, but suffice to say basketball was not first on Josh's priority list.

[johaad]

You need to use the "search" feature and you'll get all you can handle...

Yeah, I've tried it before. I found it difficult to sort through. But thanks for DukeCO2009's pm. It definitely explained things...

[miramar]

There is one huge difference between McRoberts and Avery, irrespective of what some of us have heard from different sources.

When Avery announced he was leaving, Coach K was upset. When McRoberts announced he was leaving, Coach K was seemingly relieved. Maybe even delighted.

I think that tells you a lot right there.

[Coballs]

I was about to start a thread about this very topic but DukeCO2009 beat me to the punch. I shared EXACTLY the same reaction to the Avery as a wager-gone-bad description. I would have preferred for him a longer career at Duke, but he was great in his 2 years. I've always felt that if he was given more of Wojo's minutes in the 1999 NC game (and if Magette played more in the 2nd half) we'd be talking aboout 4 national titles. And I was never aware of rumors of academic struggles or disciplinary issues, so what are the DBR guys talking about?

[msdukie]

I was about to start a thread about this very topic but DukeCO2009 beat me to the punch. I shared EXACTLY the same reaction to the Avery as a wager-gone-bad description. I would have preferred for him a longer career at Duke, but he was great in his 2 years. I've always felt that if he was given more of Wojo's minutes in the 1999 NC game (and if Magette played more in the 2nd half) we'd be talking aboout 4 national titles. And I was never aware of rumors of academic struggles or disciplinary issues, so what are the DBR guys talking about?

I'm pretty sure he had all of Wojo's minutes in the 1999 NC game.

As for the Avery academic issues, I've heard the same stories from people who took classes with him.

[mkirsh]

To quibble a bit, Wojo graduated in 98, and Avery was the main option at point in 99. He actually played one of his worst games at Duke in the title game going against his childhood friend and defensive ace Ricky Moore. However, I do think that Avery might have had a better chance of staying in front of Wayne Turner in 98 than Wojo when Turner just destroyed us in the second half, and might have had another trip to the final four in that instance.

Also to consider is if Avery stuck around in 2000, would J-Will have had the opportunity to play as many minutes and play through his mistakes enough to make him POY and national champ in 2001? All in I think Avery at Duke worked out just fine.

[Highlander]

I was about to start a thread about this very topic but DukeCO2009 beat me to the punch. I shared EXACTLY the same reaction to the Avery as a wager-gone-bad description. I would have preferred for him a longer career at Duke, but he was great in his 2 years. I've always felt that if he was given more of Wojo's minutes in the 1999 NC game (and if Magette played more in the 2nd half) we'd be talking aboout 4 national titles. And I was never aware of rumors of academic struggles or disciplinary issues, so what are the DBR guys talking about?

Umm. Wojo graduated in 1998, so Avery had ALL of his minutes in 1999.

Now if you're talking the Kentucky regional final in 1998, perhaps. But Wojo was a NDPOY and the heart and soul of that team, so maybe not.

[Poincaré]

Back when I was a little greener, I was pretty bitter about early departures, especially those not approved by K. I am still probably young compared to the many old timers we have on this board, but I am older now. It just seems hard to hate kids for making stupid decisions. The only thing that now separates the early departures from the four-year players for me is the unconditional love the latter will get from me. No matter what Shane, Daniel, JJ, Shelden, and Demarcus do, the fans here will wish them the best. We wished the best for C-Well, Nate and Trajan no matter how things went for them. The same does not apply for the early departures. Deng was an "approved" early entry, but he will never command the same level of love as Daniel or Demarcus from Duke fans even if he blows up into a superstar. That is not to say we hate Deng. He's talented, nice, AND intelligent, but we just never spent enough time with him. We like him, but we may not quite love him.

I guess what I would really like to say is that we have enough players to love that we really shouldn't have time to be bitter about the ones that left early. How about a few threads for our forgotten Landlord Shelden Williams that don't pertain to his wife?

[JBDuke]

...How was Avery a "wager gone bad"? He was successful starting as a freshman (remember the Kentucky Shot Volume 2 that almost was?), then averaged something like 15 and 5 his sophomore year on the way to a title game appearance. He never, to my knowledge got in any trouble while in school, and was drafted just outside the lottery. OK, he was a bust, but he's had a reasonably successful career in Europe. Since when does failing to pan out in the League make you a "wager gone bad", anyway? Using that logic, it's too bad we ever "wagered" on Amaker, Hurley, T. Hill, Langdon, JWill, Shelden, etc. Are people here still bitter that he went pro against K's wishes? If so, that's pretty petty, don't ya think? Avery was a valuable contributor to Duke basketball. I'd love to hear the rationale behind DBR's remarks.

It appears you either misread the DBR article, or you don't know about Avery's sophomore year attendance record.

The article was specifically talking about the fact that Coach K has earned the right to request academic exceptions from time to time, as his record of finding kids that might have spotty academic performance in high school, but turn out to be capable of doing the work at Duke - kids like Chris Carawell and Sean Dockery - has been pretty good. One time when the admissions gamble didn't pay off was Avery.

IIRC, going to class was not high on William's priority list. I believe he struggled to maintain elegibility during his two years, and once he declared for the draft, I don't believe he attended another class. If he had pulled his name out and returned for his junior year, he would have been ineligible due to a lack of progress.

On the court, Avery was working out pretty nicely. Off the court, specifically in the classroom, Avery was NOT working out. Thus, he was an academic gamble that failed.