Crypto Conversation

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bitcoin has been up and down five percent every day (sometimes mutiple times a day) for about a month. Is someone getting rich on that action?

[Jeffrey]

Bitcoin has been up and down five percent every day (sometimes mutiple times a day) for about a month. Is someone getting rich on that action?

Definitely! OTOH, someone is getting poor.

The only guaranteed winner is the house (if, prudently operated).

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Bitcoin has been up and down five percent every day (sometimes mutiple times a day) for about a month. Is someone getting rich on that action?

There is a VIX on bitcoin. Good luck to anyone who wants to get involved with that. You can also short Bitcoin.

[bundabergdevil]

By law, in the US cash has to be accepted to pay any debt you owe, public or private. A merchant can refuse dollars in payment for an item but if you owe the merchant (or the government) he/she/they cannot legally refuse payment in dollars. The legal tender law gives dollars value backed by our judicial system and law enforcement agencies. The dollars value for debt payment is not dependent on youtubers and celebrities convincing us it has value.

That’s face value, which I agreed with upthread, but not intrinsic value.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Bitcoin at it’s essence is just a method to move numbers around. Nothing more, nothing less.

Those numbers, unlike a dollar, have no intrinsic value. Any value they have depends completely on the stories that are being told about the numbers. Stories that need constant reinforcement via proselytizing or else they collapse into the nothingness they are.

Prove me wrong.

Go find someone who has Bitcoin and offer nothing for it and see if you find a seller.

Then go to an exchange like Gemini or Coinbase, and offer $20,500 for one. You might find a seller.

To say Bitcoin has no value is just not true.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Bitcoin has been up and down five percent every day (sometimes mutiple times a day) for about a month. Is someone getting rich on that action?

Lots of traders getting rich, and wrecked. Especially those using lots of leverage.

Traditional markets have leverage restrictions, not so much on many crypto exchanges, yet. Regulators are coming.

I’m pretty sure that high leverage in the trading system is the main reason for price volatility.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Definitely! OTOH, someone is getting poor.

The only guaranteed winner is the house (if, prudently operated).

Also, the restructuring and bankruptcy industry is loving crypto right now. Lots of busy lawyers, consultants, etc.

[acdevil]

I’m one of them

[OldPhiKap]

Lots of traders getting rich, and wrecked. Especially those using lots of leverage.

Traditional markets have leverage restrictions, not so much on many crypto exchanges, yet. Regulators are coming.

I’m pretty sure that high leverage in the trading system is the main reason for price volatility.

Don’t regulations kill the libertarian appeal? How can BTC be free from government and bankers if their regulations are what is needed for BTC to become more widely-accepted?

Serious question. (As I hope you understand most of mine are).

[Wheat/"/"/"]

By posting it you give it, at minimum, an implicit endorsement. It's disingenuous to provide the video without any verification of the information or at least a disclaimer especially for a video that starts off with misinformation (in this case a flat out lie) and then further peddles conspiracies about central banks wanting to control your grocery purchases. It's also dangerous and opens a rabbit hole where at the end someone will start to believe the world is flat.

I think I've made it clear than I am not anti-Bitcoin or anti-crypto or anti-digital what's to come. What I am is a realist and a skeptic that's against misinformation and preying on people's fears, emotions and nescience. I can't defend the whole of the internet but I can plant a flag here and defend this small corner of it. And honestly this place probability doesn't need it. We are a unique community that's probably not prone to being mislead. I just want people to understand what Bitcoin is...the risks...the mechanics...the potential...the consequences...the pitfalls. Most of the information (especially YouTube but also TikTok, Telegram, etc.) all herald it as some hypothetical dystopian savior. That's not it.

I give the community here more credit than that. The majority of people here can see that the video I posted was the opinion of nothing more than a YouTuber with something to say about CBDC’s that should make you think. People here can draw their own conclusions of wether he makes some valid points, or not.

To quote founding father Thomas Jefferson:

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

Bitcoin is the first worldwide, secure, scarce, divisible, digital property and currency that can be purchased with any countries fiat currency, and be stored and secured by individuals without third parties involved….remaining resistant to manipulation by the centralized power of governments and banking institutions.

This is why I buy and place some faith in Bitcoin, and I’m not alone.

You may not think there’s no way our government will control our spending in a future of digital currencies, surely it can’t happen here, you may say, only in China, but you might be wrong so it’s worth taking a good, long hard look at these potential CBDC’s.

Consider that just recently we saw the Democratic government of Canada direct their central banks to seize donated funds from the accounts of peaceful, but granted, disruptive, opposition protesters, through executive order of the Prime Minister. Note this was done without any prior due process from any court of law where the opposition could make its legal case in defense of their actions.

The crux of it was Central banks simply seized the political opposition funds at the whim of the rival politician in power. That’s what happened in democratic Canada.

Whether you agree with the opposition, or the politician in power, is irrelevant. The next time the tables could be turned, and it wouldn’t make it any more right.

All I’m trying to say to the board is pay attention to “crypto”, be it CBDC’s, Bitcoin, NFT’s, stablecoins….all of it.

The worlds financial system is changing, and the jury is still out on what is good, and bad for the future.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Don’t regulations kill the libertarian appeal? How can BTC be free from government and bankers if their regulations are what is needed for BTC to become more widely-accepted?

Serious question. (As I hope you understand most of mine are).

Not for me, but some say I’m an odd duck with my views on the world.

I think most reasonable people, all across the political spectrum, understand that good, fair, common sense regulations are necessary in society.

We’re not talking about changing BTC the commodity, BTC is what it is, just how it’s traded and regulated within the financial system for the protection of investors. BTC should be treated just like gold and other commodities in the US, that’s my opinion.

[OldPhiKap]

Not for me, but some say I’m an odd duck with my views on the world.

I think most reasonable people, all across the political spectrum, understand that good, fair, common sense regulations are necessary in society.

We’re not talking about changing BTC the commodity, BTC is what it is, just how it’s traded and regulated within the financial system for the protection of investors. BTC should be treated just like gold and other commodities in the US, that’s my opinion.

But do we trust the world governments to provide good, fair, and common sense regulations? Won’t they act in their best interest, which is to subvert BTC to their own currencies?

[OldPhiKap]

To quote founding father Thomas Jefferson:

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

FWIW, it seems that Jefferson never said this.

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...ious-quotation

[Wheat/"/"/"]

FWIW, it seems that Jefferson never said this.

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...ious-quotation

Possible, I wasn’t there

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Not for me, but some say I’m an odd duck with my views on the world.

I think most reasonable people, all across the political spectrum, understand that good, fair, common sense regulations are necessary in society.

We’re not talking about changing BTC the commodity, BTC is what it is, just how it’s traded and regulated within the financial system for the protection of investors. BTC should be treated just like gold and other commodities in the US, that’s my opinion.

I have a lot of differences of opinion with you on this whole topic (I appreciate your efforts to explain it though I agree with others that I wish you would be a little more careful in curating the sources you provide), but agree with you on this one. Though I do not want the government or anyone else to be on the hook for any of this when it goes sideways. Caveat emptor - invest in Bitcoin (and other products) at your own risk. Uncle Sam will not be protecting you.

Speaking of which, I know you have mentioned it upstream, but where do you store your Bitcoin? I still don't really understand this whole world well but it looks like a few of the wallets seem to be having some big issues.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

But do we trust the world governments to provide good, fair, and common sense regulations? Won’t they act in their best interest, which is to subvert BTC to their own currencies?

I think it will be proven over time to be in governments best interest to embrace Bitcoin in the future, and that BTC won’t subvert their own currencies, assuming the government currency can maintain the trust of the people it serves.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I have a lot of differences of opinion with you on this whole topic (I appreciate your efforts to explain it though I agree with others that I wish you would be a little more careful in curating the sources you provide), but agree with you on this one. Though I do not want the government or anyone else to be on the hook for any of this when it goes sideways. Caveat emptor - invest in Bitcoin (and other products) at your own risk. Uncle Sam will not be protecting you.

Speaking of which, I know you have mentioned it upstream, but where do you store your Bitcoin? I still don't really understand this whole world well but it looks like a few of the wallets seem to be having some big issues.

The whole world’s economy is struggling now, and the crypto ecosystem is going through its own 2008 Lehman Brothers moment right now with many exchanges, stablecoin, venture capitalists, and other various projects facing liquidation, mainly due to being unregulated and over leveraged.

It began with the collapse of the Luna not so stable coin, and the contagion has spread to the collapse of Three Arrows Capital, the Voyager exchange, and put serious pressure on the Celsius exchange, the Tether stablecoin, and the BlockFi exchange, which was saved at the last minute by FTX crypto multi billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried buying it. More pain is yet to come, I suspect.

The crypto toilet is being flushed, and only the strong will survive. There is no government or bank bailout for the crypto segment.

Bitcoin was being used as collateral by many of these troubled VC’s, stablecoins and exchanges. The past few weeks there has been a lot of sell pressure on BTC as they liquiddated their BTC for dollars, driving the price to below $20,000 per BTC.

I’m actually encouraged that BTC has fared as well as it has on price, there’s been a lot of selling going on by the liquidation of these failures.

The worst part of it has been the new retail BTC investor that didn’t take the “not your keys, not your coins” mantra of experienced Bitcoiners seriously and purchased their BTC and then left it on an exchange, like Voyager.
Voyager had taken their BTC and leverage loaned it out. Now that they are facing bankruptcy, those coins are lost to the people who left them on Voyager, barring some Miracle.

I buy my Bitcoin on Gemini. It’s a solid US regulated exchange based in NewYork, which has additional State regulations for exchanges.

Once I purchase my BTC, I transfer it to a Ledger cold storage wallet where it’s kept offline and secure on basically a thumb drive disconnected from the internet.

I take personal responsibility for securing my BTC. I don’t leave it on the exchange.

[OldPhiKap]

I think it will be proven over time to be in governments best interest to embrace Bitcoin in the future, and that BTC won’t subvert their own currencies, assuming the government currency can maintain the trust of the people it serves.

So . . . I need to trust the governments (plural) AND whatever/whomever governs BTC? Isn’t that worse tha. Just trusting one of them?

This puts me from trusting the Fed to trusting the combined national banks, major governments, and an opaque body?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

So . . . I need to trust the governments (plural) AND whatever/whomever governs BTC? Isn’t that worse tha. Just trusting one of them?

This puts me from trusting the Fed to trusting the combined national banks, major governments, and an opaque body?

Unfortunately, we have to put our trust somewhere.

Humans, who run governments and banks, have proven to be less than trustworthy when it comes to money, as a whole, in the planet’s history…just sayin’

A public open sourced, decentralized computer network is governing the ledger verification of BTC, and is done without human emotions, like greed.

I’m comfortable putting some faith in 2+2 equals 4 and knowing it’s verified by tens of thousands of computers with skin in the game to maintain BTC’s integrity.

But that’s just me….

[Jeffrey]

Also, the restructuring and bankruptcy industry is loving crypto right now. Lots of busy lawyers, consultants, etc.

Great point! The lawyers are almost always guaranteed winners whenever somebody loses big.