Conference Realignment 2022-23

[duke2x]

I once sat next to a doctor from Columbia Presbyterian Hospital at a Duke game in Brooklyn. He was wearing all Duke garb because his daughter went to Duke. He went to Columbia undergraduate and Med school but said his school had no school spirit. He loved Duke's school spirit and now identified with Duke.

It's one of the things that in my opinion, has always made Duke special and different in a good way from the Ivies.

I went to a campus recruiting social event where one of the recruiters (Georgetown grad) openly said she couldn't stand "you Dukies and you Domers" for that school attachment. Not only did that turn everyone off in the room, but it does highlight the difference with the rest of the top academic eschelon.

[AustinDevil]

Nobody chooses or will choose Stanford, Vandy, or NW for the sports teams. Those schools are located in cities with nightlife that compensate for it. Duke is basically South Bend without snow to a college student. I'm not sure whether losing P5 status will make the school more like Hop or Baylor academically.

What? There are plenty of students who care about the school competing in a top conference. Palo Alto has *no* nightlife and getting in to the actual city is a slog. And Duke, thank all that is good, will never be anything like Baylor academically. Or in terms of rapey and murdery sportsball things.

[RoseBowl1942]

Ever think Duke would be willing to just buy its way into the BIG? Like at some point, does it make sense to rip $1b out of the endowment to get in? Honestly would not be the worst use of funds if the doom and gloom were all talking about would come to fruition

[lotusland]

Yes, UCONN is hurting, and Duke could potentially be. Nina understands the stakes, she also knows the Big Ten area...there are many reasons why she has been so energetic in resuscitating Duke football.

Idk UConn’s financial situation but having a crappy independent football teams seems like a bad idea. Sounds like all costs but little revenue. I wonder if it would help the finances to go full Big East and drop the football. In that case they don’t need the girls only sports that exist only to balance out all the Men’s football scholarships for Title 9 compliance.

[RoseBowl1942]

Idk UConn’s financial situation but having a crappy independent football teams seems like a bad idea. Sounds like all costs but little revenue. I wonder if it would help the finances to go full Big East and drop the football. In that case they don’t need the girls only sports that exist only to balance out all the Men’s football scholarships for Title 9 compliance.

Bad idea. Duke football is the only thing keeping me interested in college sports right now. Bad bad bad

[AustinDevil]

Ever think Duke would be willing to just buy its way into the BIG? Like at some point, does it make sense to rip $1b out of the endowment to get in? Honestly would not be the worst use of funds if the doom and gloom were all talking about would come to fruition

You don’t have to pay them a chunk of the endowment. You might have to accept a reduced revenue share. I think that eventually, Vanderbilt and Indiana and Rutgers and the Mississippi schools etc. will face a similar choice.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Bad idea. Duke football is the only thing keeping me interested in college sports right now. Bad bad bad

I understand what you are saying. And as an individual I totally get it.

But fact is - the money is way more important than the attention of a handful of fans.

Here's what I see as an analogy.

If I said "It's all too much for me to handle. I love Duke basketball, but if they really put McDonald's logos on their jerseys, I'm out as a fan."

The establishment would shrug their shoulders and deposit the check without even sending me a breakup text.

Now, if 2/3rds of the fanbase were to stop engaging in Duke basketball... maybe they care? Maybe.

It's all about money, which is disappointing, but not at all surprising.

[arnie]

You don’t have to pay them a chunk of the endowment. You might have to accept a reduced revenue share. I think that eventually, Vanderbilt and Indiana and Rutgers and the Mississippi schools etc. will face a similar choice.

Agree this will happen if Duke fortunate to play with the big dogs. Similar to small market teams in MLB; we might not pay the players as much, but with good coaching, player development and finding the right talent to fit we can be successful some years.

[Phredd3]

Nobody chooses or will choose Stanford, Vandy, or NW for the sports teams. Those schools are located in cities with nightlife that compensate for it. Duke is basically South Bend without snow to a college student. I'm not sure whether losing P5 status will make the school more like Hop or Baylor academically.

Losing P5 status likely wouldn't affect Duke much at all academically. I think you may be overstating the importance of sports. It's really just a small fraction of Duke's overall revenue stream. The ~$1 billion of annual research grants is far more important to the bottom line at Duke, and that massive research enterprise will continue to draw plenty of the best and brightest undergrads, as well. And that's assuming that losing P5 status is a forgone conclusion, something I'm absolutely not willing to concede at this point.

[burnspbesq]

Idk UConn’s financial situation but having a crappy independent football teams seems like a bad idea. Sounds like all costs but little revenue. I wonder if it would help the finances to go full Big East and drop the football. In that case they don’t need the girls only sports that exist only to balance out all the Men’s football scholarships for Title 9 compliance.

I don’t think I can respond to this without straying into forbidden territory. I’ll just ask you to confirm that it accurately reflects your understanding of the purpose of women’s sports.

[AustinDevil]

Agree this will happen if Duke fortunate to play with the big dogs. Similar to small market teams in MLB; we might not pay the players as much, but with good coaching, player development and finding the right talent to fit we can be successful some years.

You didn't say to which group of players you are referring, but I think a fractional B1G membership would more than keep Duke MBB at the tippy top. Football would never really have a chance to compete. All other sports would be more or less fine.

[lotusland]

I don’t think I can respond to this without straying into forbidden territory. I’ll just ask you to confirm that it accurately reflects your understanding of the purpose of women’s sports.

I’m a casual fan of women’s sports. It’s not an accident that women’s athletic scholarships match men’s. I’m confident that, if UConn cut football, they would also cut women’s sports or scholarships accordingly. So while there is much gained by those sports, it probably isn’t worth their costs outside of title 9. So UConn would then be like other Big East schools in that regard which would be appropriate.

[arnie]

You didn't say to which group of players you are referring, but I think a fractional B1G membership would more than keep Duke MBB at the tippy top. Football would never really have a chance to compete. All other sports would be more or less fine.

Referring more to football players. However, if all out bidding wars become the trend (primarily football and basketball, with more limited bidding for other sports) we will not have the $$$ to compete with the larger state schools bidding for top b-ball talent. The full B1G or SEC membership schools will have significantly more $$ for each recruit.

All the above assumes the NCAA cannot effectively regulate buying players.

[wilko]

All the above assumes the NCAA cannot effectively regulate buying players.

I don't consider myself a gambler... but this is the safest bet ever.
If it involves showing a spine, or doing what is right, I totally expect them to do the least meaningful thing possible.

[uh_no]

I’m a casual fan of women’s sports. It’s not an accident that women’s athletic scholarships match men’s. I’m confident that, if UConn cut football, they would also cut women’s sports or scholarships accordingly. So while there is much gained by those sports, it probably isn’t worth their costs outside of title 9. So UConn would then be like other Big East schools in that regard which would be appropriate.

Well said.

I don't think anyone here argues against the value of women's sports (or sports in general) to both the women who compete, and society in general. Despite this, departments rae not altruistic. It is almost surely the case that if title IX were abolished, departments would cut *some* women's sports. So from the department's perspective, that sport existed because of title IX, even if there are benefits realized by other parties that the department is forced, through title IX, to bear the cost of.

It would be great if departments were benevolent and had the good of society at the heart of their mission...but they do not.

[budwom]

You didn't say to which group of players you are referring, but I think a fractional B1G membership would more than keep Duke MBB at the tippy top. Football would never really have a chance to compete. All other sports would be more or less fine.

I strongly disagree about Duke being unable to compete in football in the Big 10. Northwestern, despite being lousy the past two seasons, has competed very well, with winning conference records in five of the last eight years (including two ten win seasons and a nine win season)...No, we may not compete with Michigan and OSU for championships, but much of the Big 10 just isn't that tough in football and Duke could be extremely competitive.
Looking at Sagarin's final rankings for 2022, Duke had a higher rating than Purdue, MSU, Nebraska, Indiana, NW and Rutgers...
This past season, the ACC Atlantic division had a higher overall rating than the Big 10 West...

Having said that, I agree that, due to our private school status and thus limited fan following, a fractional membership could make sense, the devil (ha) of course being in the details.

[AustinDevil]

I strongly disagree about Duke being unable to compete in football in the Big 10. Northwestern, despite being lousy the past two seasons, has competed very well, with winning conference records in five of the last eight years (including two ten win seasons and a nine win season)...No, we may not compete with Michigan and OSU for championships, but much of the Big 10 just isn't that tough in football and Duke could be extremely competitive.
Looking at Sagarin's final rankings for 2022, Duke had a higher rating than Purdue, MSU, Nebraska, Indiana, NW and Rutgers...
This past season, the ACC Atlantic division had a higher overall rating than the Big 10 West...

Having said that, I agree that, due to our private school status and thus limited fan following, a fractional membership could make sense, the devil (ha) of course being in the details.

I didn't explain my thought very well; I was thinking of a future world where NIL has really taken root more fully. There are certainly examples of elite and semi-elite private schools having some football success in top conferences. I think they're going to get rarer in the future, that's all. I do think Duke can keep up in hoops with NIL, but football, we'll see. I guess I'm somewhere between arnie fearing that Duke MBB will fall back as well, and you thinking we can stay near-ish the top in both MBB and FB.

[Acymetric]

Now, if 2/3rds of the fanbase were to stop engaging in Duke basketball... maybe they care? Maybe.

For what it's worth, my suspicion (regarding sports generally, not Duke specifically) is that this is already happening and is a big part of what is driving the push for legalized gambling and the huge increase in gambling coverage in sports media. An effort to make up for lost interest elsewhere.

[budwom]

I didn't explain my thought very well; I was thinking of a future world where NIL has really taken root more fully. There are certainly examples of elite and semi-elite private schools having some football success in top conferences. I think they're going to get rarer in the future, that's all. I do think Duke can keep up in hoops with NIL, but football, we'll see. I guess I'm somewhere between arnie fearing that Duke MBB will fall back as well, and you thinking we can stay near-ish the top in both MBB and FB.

I hear ya. My personal view is that the ACC is in peril, because the name football schools who essentially drive the TV revenue are getting antsy about missing out on Big 10/SEC money. So I think Duke needs to be proactive and IS proactive...this is why (IMO) Nina has paid so much attention to resuscitating Duke football (for which she gets a grade A)...the way things are moving, I'd be pretty happy about Duke being in the Big 10, frankly. There's no use pining for the old ACC which most of us thoroughly enjoyed...the Big 10 is chock full of good academic schools and Duke would fit in well. Do we have appeal to them? I suspect/fear that UVA and unc probably do...Oregon and Washington want in badly, Stanford and Cal would also be logical fits, all these schools bringing in theoretically large TV audiences.

I'd like to know more about Duke's NIL abilities...we've got some alums with dough, too...just have no idea what Nina's thinking is on this...

[RoseBowl1942]

I understand what you are saying. And as an individual I totally get it.

But fact is - the money is way more important than the attention of a handful of fans.

Here's what I see as an analogy.

If I said "It's all too much for me to handle. I love Duke basketball, but if they really put McDonald's logos on their jerseys, I'm out as a fan."

The establishment would shrug their shoulders and deposit the check without even sending me a breakup text.

Now, if 2/3rds of the fanbase were to stop engaging in Duke basketball... maybe they care? Maybe.

It's all about money, which is disappointing, but not at all surprising.

Right, no it all makes sense. But see, you seem to be missing that I’m selfish and only care about Duke football. MBB is just the lifeboat that may get me off the Titanic that is the ACC