Shingrix vaccine

[Neals384]

I applaud as well. I’m about to get the Shingrex myself so I was just curious about Neals384’s side effects after the shot.

no side effects. No soreness at injections site, no flu-like symptoms.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

no side effects. No soreness at injections site, no flu-like symptoms.

You most have gotten a placebo. OK, just kidding!

[OldPhiKap]

OH NO, NOT PLACEBO!

(Sorry)

[Rich]

OH NO, NOT PLACEBO!

(Sorry)

I'm tempted to rewrite all of your posts into pirate talk. That's how I read them now, anyway.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

OH NO, NOT PLACEBO! AARRRRR!

(Sorry)

I'm tempted to rewrite all of your posts into pirate talk. That's how I read them now, anyway.

Fixed it for you!

[duke79]

As I mentioned above, I had my second Shingrix vaccine shot late yesterday afternoon at my local CVS. I feel a little tired today and somewhat "under the weather". I've been taking Tylenol and not doing to much work. I hope the reaction lasts only a day or so!

[rsvman]

The chickenpox vaccine is nothing more than a weakened version of the actual virus that causes chickenpox.

Varicella zoster virus (the name of the virus that causes chickenpox) is a member of the "herpes group" of viruses. One of the things that all members of this virus group have in common is that they never get eradicated and therefore never leave your body. They establish what is known as latency, which is a state in which they are not actively replicating. Latency for VZV is in the dorsal root ganglia of the spinal cord.

Shingles is thought to occur when the cellular immune system weakens, allowing the latent virus to reactivate. Since the varicella vaccine is a live virus, it also establishes latency in the dorsal root ganglia of the spinal cord, also never leaves your body, and also can reactivate. But because it is a weakened virus, your immune system should at least theoretically have to weaken even farther before it would be weak enough to allow the vaccine virus to reactivate and cause shingles.

So the issue is not that the varicella vaccine protection isn't perfect, it's that the vaccine virus itself actually takes up permanent residence in your body. Because of this, some people very strongly questioned the advisability of this vaccine when it was introduced.


The thing is, though, that if you decide to live on this particular planet, you are essentially consenting to renting out the dorsal root ganglia of your spinal cord to one varicella virus or another. There isn't actually a third option, in which you don't allow a varicella virus of any kind to take up residence. So you really have two choices: 1) allow the wild-type varicella to take up residence there, or 2) rent that space out to a weakened version of the virus.

Because the vaccine virus is weak, shingles should become much less common over time. But there will never be a world without shingles, because there will never be a world without varicella zoster virus.

[LasVegas]

Thanks for sharing, RSVMAN. That’s pretty crazy stuff. I honestly had no idea.

[Acymetric]

The chickenpox vaccine is nothing more than a weakened version of the actual virus that causes chickenpox.

Varicella zoster virus (the name of the virus that causes chickenpox) is a member of the "herpes group" of viruses. One of the things that all members of this virus group have in common is that they never get eradicated and therefore never leave your body. They establish what is known as latency, which is a state in which they are not actively replicating. Latency for VZV is in the dorsal root ganglia of the spinal cord.

Shingles is thought to occur when the cellular immune system weakens, allowing the latent virus to reactivate. Since the varicella vaccine is a live virus, it also establishes latency in the dorsal root ganglia of the spinal cord, also never leaves your body, and also can reactivate. But because it is a weakened virus, your immune system should at least theoretically have to weaken even farther before it would be weak enough to allow the vaccine virus to reactivate and cause shingles.

So the issue is not that the varicella vaccine protection isn't perfect, it's that the vaccine virus itself actually takes up permanent residence in your body. Because of this, some people very strongly questioned the advisability of this vaccine when it was introduced.


The thing is, though, that if you decide to live on this particular planet, you are essentially consenting to renting out the dorsal root ganglia of your spinal cord to one varicella virus or another. There isn't actually a third option, in which you don't allow a varicella virus of any kind to take up residence. So you really have two choices: 1) allow the wild-type varicella to take up residence there, or 2) rent that space out to a weakened version of the virus.

Because the vaccine virus is weak, shingles should become much less common over time. But there will never be a world without shingles, because there will never be a world without varicella zoster virus.

What is it about Shingrix (which is not a live vaccine) that makes it unsuitable for a childhood chicken pox vaccine?

[Section 15]

Thanks for sharing, RSVMAN. That’s pretty crazy stuff. I honestly had no idea.

Yeah, ditto. Rsvman, your post is quite an education.

Section 15

[Section 15]

The thing is, though, that if you decide to live on this particular planet, you are essentially consenting to renting out the dorsal root ganglia of your spinal cord to one varicella virus or another. There isn't actually a third option, in which you don't allow a varicella virus of any kind to take up residence. So you really have two choices: 1) allow the wild-type varicella to take up residence there, or 2) rent that space out to a weakened version of the virus.

Question: The quote from my earlier post indicates that the varicella virus from the chickenpox vaccine does not survive the immune response and does not go dormant in the nervous system (see highlighted below). Is this incorrect? I did find it on the internet, so doesn't that mean it has to be correct?

This week, new evidence was published showing that children who receive the two recommended doses of the chickenpox vaccine are less likely to develop shingles later in life. This makes sense since these children are given the same immunity a natural infection would give, but they are given a weakened version of the varicella virus. That virus has almost no chance of surviving its encounter with a healthy immune system, so it does not cause disease, does not go dormant in nerves and it triggers enough of an immune response to protect children from infection for the future.

Section 15

[rsvman]

Question: The quote from my earlier post indicates that the varicella virus from the chickenpox vaccine does not survive the immune response and does not go dormant in the nervous system (see highlighted below). Is this incorrect? I did find it on the internet, so doesn't that mean it has to be correct?



Section 15

It is not correct. This is a report of Oka strain (the vaccine virus) causing shingles. There are many such reports.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...83073818821498

Money quote:

Clinical observations over the past 25 years in the USA have led to the conclusion that the frequency and severity of herpes zoster after varicella vaccination are less than those induced by wild-type varicella infection.5,6 Nevertheless, reports are accruing that herpes zoster does occur after varicella vaccination in immunocompetent children.7


There were actually some early reports from a few years after the vaccine had been approved that suggested that in some children, the vaccine actually boosted itself; in other words, in some kids who didn't make a very good reaction to the vaccine, the vaccine virus would reactivate asymptomatically and stimulate a boost in the immune response, which is just crazy stuff. I can't remember exactly how they differentiated that possibility from the possibility that those with poor responses might have boosted from coming into contact with wild-type virus which was then still circulating at a fairly high level, but I think it had something to do with antibody affinity for the vaccine virus versus the wild-type virus. Whatever it was, it could not have occurred had the vaccine strain not become latent and then reactivated.

It may be possible that some children actually eradicate it before it takes up residence; I honestly haven't looked that much into that possibility. Herpes group viruses generally run and hide the second you are about to eradicate them, in order to avoid eradication. It was my feeling, therefore, that in most cases, the vaccine virus would manage to do the same, but I can't 100% say that it does so all the time. Varicella isn't really my area of expertise, although I did write a review article about the virus for Pediatrics in Review a lifetime ago.

[rsvman]

What is it about Shingrix (which is not a live vaccine) that makes it unsuitable for a childhood chicken pox vaccine?

To my knowledge it has never been studied in children. The original childhood vaccine was the live attenuated strain and it works very well in children.

Shingrix was invented because Zostavax (the prior "shingles vaccine," which was nothing more than the exact same vaccine as the childhood vaccine but with more virus in it) didn't work very well and didn't maintain protection for a long enough period of time.

The reason so many people have bad reactions to Shingrix is not because of the varicella subunit but because of the adjuvant (Monophosphoryl lipid A (MPL) and QS-21, a natural compound extracted from the Chilean soapbark tree) used in it, which is a very potent immune stimulator.

[Acymetric]

To my knowledge it has never been studied in children. The original childhood vaccine was the live attenuated strain and it works very well in children.

Shingrix was invented because Zostavax (the prior "shingles vaccine," which was nothing more than the exact same vaccine as the childhood vaccine but with more virus in it) didn't work very well and didn't maintain protection for a long enough period of time.

The reason so many people have bad reactions to Shingrix is not because of the varicella subunit but because of the adjuvant (Monophosphoryl lipid A (MPL) and QS-21, a natural compound extracted from the Chilean soapbark tree) used in it, which is a very potent immune stimulator.

Sorry, I knew it hadn't been studied. I was trying to figure out if there was some obvious (to medical professionals, not to me clearly) reason why it wouldn't be suitable for children (hence no studies). A non-live virus childhood vaccine would seem to solve the issue of the vaccine strain remaining dormant in the vaccinated, if it were viable, but it is so obvious that my assumption is that I'm missing some piece of the puzzle (unsurprising, given my 0 years of medical experience I suppose).

My guesses are things like:

1) That the live vaccine works so well (and is already tested in children) and is already proven safe, it wouldn't be worth it to run a new trial for a vaccine that may turn out not to be safe in children (and that maybe would require a control group that didn't get vaccinated?) or that wouldn't be as effective.

2) It isn't actually all that big a deal given the weakened state of the virus, so nobody is really worried about it.

3) There is some good reason to think that it wouldn't work in children based on existing data from the age group that was tested, or from some similar vaccine that had been tested in children previously (either too risky in terms of side effects or not as effective as the current vaccine).

But obviously I'm just guessing, would be curious to know the actual explanation (if one is known).

[Section 15]

It is not correct. This is a report of Oka strain (the vaccine virus) causing shingles. There are many such reports.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/ful...83073818821498

Money quote:

Clinical observations over the past 25 years in the USA have led to the conclusion that the frequency and severity of herpes zoster after varicella vaccination are less than those induced by wild-type varicella infection.5,6 Nevertheless, reports are accruing that herpes zoster does occur after varicella vaccination in immunocompetent children.7


There were actually some early reports from a few years after the vaccine had been approved that suggested that in some children, the vaccine actually boosted itself; in other words, in some kids who didn't make a very good reaction to the vaccine, the vaccine virus would reactivate asymptomatically and stimulate a boost in the immune response, which is just crazy stuff. I can't remember exactly how they differentiated that possibility from the possibility that those with poor responses might have boosted from coming into contact with wild-type virus which was then still circulating at a fairly high level, but I think it had something to do with antibody affinity for the vaccine virus versus the wild-type virus. Whatever it was, it could not have occurred had the vaccine strain not become latent and then reactivated.

It may be possible that some children actually eradicate it before it takes up residence; I honestly haven't looked that much into that possibility. Herpes group viruses generally run and hide the second you are about to eradicate them, in order to avoid eradication. It was my feeling, therefore, that in most cases, the vaccine virus would manage to do the same, but I can't 100% say that it does so all the time. Varicella isn't really my area of expertise, although I did write a review article about the virus for Pediatrics in Review a lifetime ago.

Once again, thank you for the clarification.

Section 15

[OldPhiKap]

I'm tempted to rewrite all of your posts into pirate talk. That's how I read them now, anyway.

Fixed it for you!

Both of these deserve sporks, but alas I must spread more first. All help appreciated!

[YmoBeThere]

Shingrix #2 today, which this concludes my 2021 vaccination schedule.

[aimo]

Shingrix #2 today, which this concludes my 2021 vaccination schedule.

Next on my list. And overdue! Maybe before Christmas.

[duke79]

Shingrix #2 today, which this concludes my 2021 vaccination schedule.

Yea, I've finished all my vaccines - 3 Covid shots, 2 Shingrix, and my flu vaccine. I can literally feel the antibodies swimming around in my body. I just hope they all get along.

[SlimSlowSlider]

Apologies if this type of question has been addressed upthread.

I got a Moderna booster shot last Friday (Nov. 19). I am scheduled for Shingrix first dose on Dec. 2 (so 13 days apart).

Is there any reason not to get my first Shingrix then (i.e., push it out further)? I initially was going to get both at the same time (which my wife thought was nuts), but was able to get my Covid booster more quickly than that.

Thanks.