Will we ever see the Tar Heels again?

[uh_no]

I can't wait till the SEC deems North Carolina's TV markets attractive and takes Chapel Hill off our hands, along with either Virginia or Virginia Tech, to get to sixteen. I'd happily sacrifice the rivalry, which is principally a site of people acting toxic, to never have to deal with them again.

while that may be true, I don't think it can be understated how financially lucrative the rivalry is to Duke.

[wilson]

while that may be true, I don't think it can be understated how financially lucrative the rivalry is to Duke.

I'm not necessarily challenging this assertion, but I'd really like to see some concrete numbers backing up this assertion, as I find it a touch hard to believe that one matchup (albeit obviously the most high-profile one) is really that integral to the entirety of Duke's athletic programs.

[uh_no]

I'm not necessarily challenging this assertion, but I'd really like to see some concrete numbers backing up this assertion, as I find it a touch hard to believe that one matchup (albeit obviously the most high-profile one) is really that integral to the entirety of Duke's athletic programs.

for one, it's brought gameday to campus more than any other school just for that game at the end of the season. Aside from the publicity from that event, how many people are coming to campus and buying merch? That's probably even just a minor effect on the grand scheme of things.

The biggest game in college basketball brings publicity, publicity brings fans, fans buy merch. Being nationally relevant keeps donors interested, interested donors donate more. One of the reasons season tickets are so high is JUST that game. There are a good number who sell that game at the 1-2k$ to offset the cost of the season ticket. It's by far the most in demand ticket in the regular season, and the university could not charge as much for season tickets if it weren't there.

So no, I nor anybody have concrete numbers, but the avenues in which it is lucrative are relatively easy to see.

[wilson]

for one, it's brought gameday to campus more than any other school just for that game at the end of the season. Aside from the publicity from that event, how many people are coming to campus and buying merch? That's probably even just a minor effect on the grand scheme of things.

The biggest game in college basketball brings publicity, publicity brings fans, fans buy merch. Being nationally relevant keeps donors interested, interested donors donate more. One of the reasons season tickets are so high is JUST that game. There are a good number who sell that game at the 1-2k$ to offset the cost of the season ticket. It's by far the most in demand ticket in the regular season, and the university could not charge as much for season tickets if it weren't there.

So no, I nor anybody have concrete numbers, but the avenues in which it is lucrative are relatively easy to see.

I get what you're saying, but I think it's an oversimplification to relate all of the above revenue streams to one annual game. Again, I'm not asking you individually to do any research or provide numbers (and my own searches initially make it seem difficult to uncover specifics), but no, I don't at all think it's "easy to see" that Duke athletics would somehow collapse absent the unc men's basketball game.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

for one, it's brought gameday to campus more than any other school just for that game at the end of the season. Aside from the publicity from that event, how many people are coming to campus and buying merch? That's probably even just a minor effect on the grand scheme of things.

The biggest game in college basketball brings publicity, publicity brings fans, fans buy merch. Being nationally relevant keeps donors interested, interested donors donate more. One of the reasons season tickets are so high is JUST that game. There are a good number who sell that game at the 1-2k$ to offset the cost of the season ticket. It's by far the most in demand ticket in the regular season, and the university could not charge as much for season tickets if it weren't there.

So no, I nor anybody have concrete numbers, but the avenues in which it is lucrative are relatively easy to see.

And perhaps most importantly, the Duke-Carolina games get incredible TV ratings, so they factor heavily into ESPN's TV payments. I'm sure ads during the Duke-Carolina game go for a lot more than pretty much any other college basketball game.

That being said, though I agree that though Carolina games definitely make the university significant amounts of money, I don't think they are make-or-break for us.

[Natty_B]

Not totally on topic but 2020 has been *not great* but isn't it nice that one of the last college basketball games with fans (for who knows how long) was UNC getting absolutely crushed by Syracuse in the ACCT? Gotta find joy where you can in these dystopian times.

[wilson]

And perhaps most importantly, the Duke-Carolina games get incredible TV ratings, so they factor heavily into ESPN's TV payments. I'm sure ads during the Duke-Carolina game go for a lot more than pretty much any other college basketball game.

I agree with this, but that ad revenue, remember, is filtered through at least two intermediaries...ESPN (or whomever the rights holder might be in a given instance), and then the ACC revenue distribution. While the Duke-unc games are certainly a big couple of drops in that bucket, I don't think I accept the notion that overall ACC revenue would be significantly damaged if that one rivalry game went away.

being said, though I agree that though Carolina games definitely make the university significant amounts of money, I don't think they are make-or-break for us.

This is, basically, my point. I recognize that the carolina games are culturally and (to a lesser extent) financially a big deal, but I don't think they're foundationally essential for the future of Duke athletics or anything.

[throatybeard]

Also, nothing would prevent Duke and Carolina from scheduling each other nonconferencely, although it's hard to see that amounting to an annual home and home.

I don't care. I'd be happy to live without them, because of the way they conduct themselves, in general and specifically towards us. There are more important things in life than an annual visit from Reece Davis, Digger, JWill, and the alumnus color commentator everyone loves complaining about.

[wilson]

Also, nothing would prevent Duke and Carolina from scheduling each other nonconferencely, although it's hard to see that amounting to an annual home and home.

I don't care. I'd be happy to live without them, because of the way they conduct themselves, in general and specifically towards us. There are more important things in life than an annual visit from Reece Davis, Digger, JWill, and the alumnus color commentator everyone loves complaining about.

Agreed, although I think a nonconference matchup would be unlikely (witness our current relationship with Maryland).
And to reiterate, I think the idea that Gameday one February Saturday a year is somehow a significant Duke athletics revenue line item is specious at best.

[OldPhiKap]

Given my view that the unrepentant cheating weasel-bastards should have gotten the death penalty, put me down for not giving a rat's left tonsil if we ever play them again in any sport.

9F.

[sagegrouse]

I get what you're saying, but I think it's an oversimplification to relate all of the above revenue streams to one annual game. Again, I'm not asking you individually to do any research or provide numbers (and my own searches initially make it seem difficult to uncover specifics), but no, I don't at all think it's "easy to see" that Duke athletics would somehow collapse absent the unc men's basketball game.

I tend to see the value of your arguments.

My argument is that Carolina would be really dumb to leave the ACC for the SEC. "Race to the bottom," I think I said. In two senses -- (a) competing against a much weaker set of universities, which, I believe, would affect UNC's academic rep and (b) going directly to the bottom of the conference in football -- and not necessarily maintaining its national position in hoops.

[wilson]

I tend to see the value of your arguments.

My argument is that Carolina would be really dumb to leave the ACC for the SEC. "Race to the bottom," I think I said. In two senses -- (a) competing against a much weaker set of universities, which, I believe, would affect UNC's academic rep and (b) going directly to the bottom of the conference in football -- and not necessarily maintaining its national position in hoops.

I agree with this as well...again, I find the Maryland precedent instructive. How has their B1G move worked out for the stature of their hoops program (and for that matter, all of their other major sports programs)?

[ChillinDuke]

I agree with this as well...again, I find the Maryland precedent instructive. How has their B1G move worked out for the stature of their hoops program (and for that matter, all of their other major sports programs)?

Putting aside our collective relative reduction in interest, simply by their not being in our conference, hasn't Maryland Basketball been pretty good since they left? I don't really think they've fallen off in terms of results and national relevance, if that's what you're alluding to.

- Chillin

[wilson]

Putting aside our collective relative reduction in interest, simply by their not being in our conference, hasn't Maryland Basketball been pretty good since they left? I don't really think they've fallen off in terms of results and national relevance, if that's what you're alluding to.

- Chillin

I don't think I'd agree that they've remained steady in terms of national relevance. I'll grant that their season by season results have been decent enough, but they've been nowhere near the heights they reached in the late '90s/early 2000s as far as truly elite status, in my opinion.
In their 6 seasons since leaving the ACC, the twerps have made 4 NCAA tournaments and one Sweet Sixteen. That's not awful, but it doesn't really compare to the headiest days of the Gary Williams era.

[ChillinDuke]

I don't think I'd agree that they've remained steady in terms of national relevance. I'll grant that their season by season results have been decent enough, but they've been nowhere near the heights they reached in the late '90s/early 2000s as far as truly elite status, in my opinion.

How are the historical heights of a team already a decade+ removed from said heights particularly relevant to the analysis of if a team "fell off as a result of changing conferences"? Seems to me Maryland fell off their heights while still in the ACC and maintained that new, notch-or-two-below-title-contender level despite changing conferences.

So, I still don't agree that Maryland Basketball is good evidence that changing conferences can hamper success / reputation. Trust me, I'd like to agree, particularly in the Maryland example.

- Chillin

[wilson]

How are the historical heights of a team already a decade+ removed from said heights particularly relevant to the analysis of if a team "fell off as a result of changing conferences"? Seems to me Maryland fell off their heights while still in the ACC and maintained that new, notch-or-two-below-title-contender level despite changing conferences.

So, I still don't agree that Maryland Basketball is good evidence that changing conferences can hamper success / reputation. Trust me, I'd like to agree, particularly in the Maryland example.

- Chillin

Fair point. I guess I'm more trying to say that the generalized boon that Maryland promised B1G membership would be with regard to athletic performance and stature hasn't materialized.

[uh_no]

I don't at all think it's "easy to see" that Duke athletics would somehow collapse absent the unc men's basketball game.

that's a pretty big straw man.

[wilson]

that's a pretty big straw man.

You yourself said that the financial importance of the matchup "couldn't be understated." Then, in my opinion, you proceeded to rather significantly overstate its importance. Semantics aside, my real point (which I've explained pretty thoroughly in the thread) is that:

I find it a touch hard to believe that one matchup (albeit obviously the most high-profile one) is really that integral to the entirety of Duke's athletic programs.

[ChillinDuke]

Fair point. I guess I'm more trying to say that the generalized boon that Maryland promised B1G membership would be with regard to athletic performance and stature hasn't materialized.

Well, that's true enough. But I'm not sure it was unexpected.

There is a distinction between economic results and marketing. Maryland made the move to improve economic results, something that presumably bore out. They marketed it to the public as a boon in athletic performance and stature - mainly just spin, to any reasonable onlooker at the time. I would say this played out exactly as a base case expectation would have predicted when it was announced: increased money and status quo ish athletic performance / stature.

I would guess that the powers that be in Maryland's Athletic Department view the move as playing out more or less as they expected, and not quite as they hoped. But they obviously wouldn't say that publicly.

- Chillin

[Steven43]

Also, nothing would prevent Duke and Carolina from scheduling each other nonconferencely, although it's hard to see that amounting to an annual home and home.

I don't care. I'd be happy to live without them, because of the way they conduct themselves, in general and specifically towards us. There are more important things in life than an annual visit from Reece Davis, Digger, JWill, and the alumnus color commentator everyone loves complaining about.

Hmm. I feel strongly that the Duke v UNC games are BY FAR the most anticipated, most exciting, most intense, and most satisfying (when Duke wins) of all the games the Blue Devils play. No other game even comes close. There is no way I would ever want to discontinue Duke v UNC.