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  1. #21
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    A good read from none other than Chuck Wendig:

    http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2019...-wars-is-junk/

  2. #22
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    Loved the movie. But it made me hate Rian Johnson more than I hate Jar-Jar.

    I am doomed to wonder how great this trilogy COULD have been if JJ had been able to do all 3.

    EVERY complaint raised by critics is directly attributable to the mess RJ made of the TLJ.

    Palpatine raised the issue of the Sith power over death in the prequels - but obviously there is a huge price to be paid, he wouldn't be resurrected fully functioning. A lot of detail could have been fleshed out if more storytelling had been moved to TLJ - instead of a 30 minute waste of time on a meaningless chase scene through space Vegas.

    The dyad was a great storytelling device. The essence of Star Wars is good versus evil, the light side versus the dark. There cannot be one without the other. But it comes down to choice and sacrifice. Just as Luke was not destined to be evil because his father was "evil," or Ben was not necessarily destined to be good because his mother was good, Rey was not necessarily destined to follow her grandfather. Luke, Annakin, Ben and Rey all made choices, eventually choosing the light over the dark. Having Ben and Rey comprise the Dyad, the grandchildren of Palpatine and the original Skywalker (born of an immaculate conception) brings that duality into sharp relief. Again, damn Rian Johnson for interfering with, nay misdirecting, that storyline.

    I believe the fight scenes were edited down to cram more storytelling. I think a trailer actually had a clip of Rey and Ben fighting together against a common foe.

    Why is the same-sex kiss such a big thing? You have interspecies kissing and hugging going on without complaint (and, gasp, potentially gender mixing there as well)!

    I think JJ did a brilliant job. I would love to know how much RJ skewed the storyline to know just how much JJ had to do to get it back on path. Using the unanswered call for help in TLJ as a key plot point in TRoS was interesting and effective. The force connection was also interesting and effective.

    It wasn't perfect. The "16 hours" to save the galaxy was pretty weak and forced (sorry for the pun). Finn's storyline was a total mess and rushed. Was his secret that he had some force abilities? Was that made clear in the trilogy in some way? Having a crew of a half dozen successfully sneak endlessly through a village teeming with stormtroopers searching for them drove me crazy. The water battle where Kylo is drenched but Rey is completely dry.

    But it was a Space Western - and true to its heritage. It even had a cavalry charge on a spaceship for goodness sakes! It treated the characters we have grown to love with great affection, and gave each of the three original stars a star turn.

    It is not my favorite of the series, Rogue One and A New Hope are still at the top, but it is up there with Empire Strikes back and The Force Awakens.

    That you JJ, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    A good read from none other than Chuck Wendig:

    http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2019...-wars-is-junk/
    "I want the four-hour version of this film. I’m told one exists — a long, possibly clumsy cut. But I want it. Because there’s so much missing here."


    I'd buy that for a dollar!


    I REALLY want to see all four hours. PLEASE!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    "I want the four-hour version of this film. I’m told one exists — a long, possibly clumsy cut. But I want it. Because there’s so much missing here."


    I'd buy that for a dollar!


    I REALLY want to see all four hours. PLEASE!
    How about the "$29.99 Director's Cut" package. I'm sure we'll see it some day not too far, far away.

    -jk

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by -jk View Post
    How about the "$29.99 Director's Cut" package. I'm sure we'll see it some day not too far, far away.

    -jk
    But it will be free on Disney+


    Golly gee did Disney load up TRoS with trailers of upcoming drek from Disney and Marvel.

  6. #26
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    Feb 2007
    Best Lightsabre battles:

    1. The Last Jedi
    2. Phantom Menace
    3. Revenge of the Sith
    4. Empire
    5. Rise of Skywalker
    6. Return of the Jedi
    7. Attack of the Clones
    8. Force Awakens
    9. A New Hope

    An interesting contrast to what I’d list as best movies.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuse View Post
    Best Lightsabre battles:

    1. The Last Jedi
    2. Phantom Menace
    3. Revenge of the Sith
    4. Empire
    5. Rise of Skywalker
    6. Return of the Jedi
    7. Attack of the Clones
    8. Force Awakens
    9. A New Hope

    An interesting contrast to what I’d list as best movies.
    Years ago I loved the saber battles in the prequels, but the more I watch them, the worse they seem. Over choreographed.

  8. #28
    I've seen every Star Wars movie but don't consider myself a deep Star Wars fan in the sense that I was offended by anything that happened in The Last Jedi besides some parts just being stupid (like Leia waking up and flying back to her spaceship).

    In retrospect, The Force Awakens--despite all of its obvious similarities to The New Hope--did a pretty impressive job of establishing new characters that people cared about and bringing a new generation into the Star Wars universe. It was an entertaining movie that mostly made sense. Everything since that point has been a mess. I was entertained by Episodes 8 and 9 and that's good enough for me. But from the standpoint of story and character...what a mess. I just did not care by the end of this movie.

    Episode 9 felt like a movie where stuff just happened. Someone said this a few posts back and I completely agree. Stuff happened not out of any internal logic but just because. They really struggled to land this thing. And I have no doubt that some of that is due to the differing objectives of JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson but again that just underlines how this trilogy was bungled from the highest levels of planning.

    Fortunately for Disney, the Mandalorian has been well received and so that should buy them a little time to figure out where to go next. IMO, they desperately need to get away from Skywalkers at this point. They need a clean break from the past. No more fan service. No more trying to shoehorn old characters in to places they don't belong. They need to let go. Rian Johnson had the right idea in some ways but he was about two movies too early in trying to bring an end to the Skywalker saga while literally in the middle of a Skywalker trilogy. He might have been the perfect person to direct the next Star Wars movie. Oh well.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mabdul Doobakus View Post
    He might have been the perfect person to direct the next Star Wars movie. Oh well.
    Anyone who:

    a) uses gravity bombs in space
    b) does that worse than jar jar stupid idea of Leia force flying through space and not dying
    c) introduces the concept of fuel to have an idiotic slow speed chase
    d) has military people as dumb as holdo and poe

    ...deserves to be nowhere NEAR anything related to star wars.

    So many, so many bad horrible ideas in The Last Jedi.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Loved the movie. But it made me hate Rian Johnson more than I hate Jar-Jar.

    I am doomed to wonder how great this trilogy COULD have been if JJ had been able to do all 3.

    EVERY complaint raised by critics is directly attributable to the mess RJ made of the TLJ.
    Ha, I don't think I've ever disagreed with anyone more on a movie. It is one thing to listen to fan feedback a little bit, it is another thing to let a group of fans totally mob-rule the day by just straight-retconning everything in the last movie. JJ is the biggest coward ever involved with the franchise – he took the easiest way out at every opportunity (including in Episode 7, though perhaps that was somewhat forgivable). I wish RJ did the entire trilogy.

    "Rey is nobody" was the best thing to happen in a Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes back: it's a beautiful message, and perfectly strikes the balance of being in the theme of the series while simultaneously being different than the OT and PT. Making her related to someone was pathetic and more or less ruins the entire trilogy for me.

    I have no idea why I should believe Palps won't be back in Episode 12 or whatever.

    Was that the worst kiss in the history of movies?

    Having Finn continually say he had a big secret to tell Rey and then just... never telling the audience what it was... really great storytelling JJ...

    Why couldn't they just bomb the transmission tower with proton torpedoes? In ROTJ they couldn't do that because they had to sneak onto the planet by bypassing a shield, but that wasn't an issue here.

    I wish there were more tactics in the final battle – they should have hired whoever created the final battle in Rogue One.

    The first half of the movie, where the main characters were just adventuring around, was mostly enjoyable, up until the dumb Palpatine heritage reveal.

    Blah.

  11. #31
    I agree with Jason on this. Really, really, disliked this film.

    The pacing was completely off because they were trying to do too much: undo the last film (with unequivocal spite where possible), set up this film, bring back the old villain, have cutesy cameos for old characters, bring the whole franchise to a close...it was way too much. Our main trio chased a mcguffin to get to a mcguffin so they could find a mcguffin. No one stopped to breath, to feel the weight of what they were trying to accomplish. And because of that, there was never any emotional stakes. It felt more like moving along a checklist to every character's ending point, out of obligation.

    The film also constantly undercut itself. Rey killed Chewie! How shocking, we'll see her struggle with her anger. Nope! Just kidding, Chewie's alive. Rey killed Kylo! Nope, she'll heal him ten seconds later. Rey is dead! Nope, Kylo brought her back to life. Bizarrely, the only thing the film paused to set up emotional heft for--having C-3P0 lose all of his memories--was also undone just a few minutes later. Nothing mattered.

    But by far my biggest gripe was the folly of making Rey a Palpatine. Others have articulated some reasons this was a mistake, so I'll add two more:

    1) Finding out a character is a long-lost member of a powerful family is not shocking or surprising in Star Wars. This franchise made that twist famous 40 years ago! So undoing one of the true twists from the last film by reverting to "oh actually, you're a long lost Palpatine, and what we said last time was true, from a certain point of view," was not a twist; it was cheap and lazy.

    2) Rey being a nobody democratized the force. Important people could come from anywhere. Even if your current heroes fail, there's a broom boy somewhere who could be the next hero. This film totally undercut that. Why stand up for the divine right of kings, where only bloodlines matter?

    Add on top of that the things that make less than zero sense and were never explained (how is Palpatine alive? How did he make all those ships? How is each as powerful as a Death Star? Why does only one have a GPS? Where did those millions of crew-members come from? Who are all the people in his massive choir? What has his plan been all along? If his plan was to win by provoking Rey into killing him, why did he lose when Rey killed him ten minutes later? How did Lando get a thousand ships to show up after a few hours work?). So mostly a very disappointing film for me.

    The few highlights included: legit funny moments from C-3P0. Handling Leia's death about as well as possible. Oscar Isaac's chemistry with everyone. Great acting from Isaac, John Boyega, Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver, doing as much as possible with what they had to work with. Driver's physical/emotional split between being Kylo and then being Ben again.

    Finally, shoutout to Wander, who on April 12, posted this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    I really hope the Rey heritage is not retconned... I didn't really have this opinion going into the Last Jedi, but after seeing it, I think Rey not having an important family was 100% perfect and exactly what Star Wars needed.

    That said, I can see them pulling something like "her parents being no one was techincally correct... but her grandfather is Palpatine". It's suspicious she doesn't have a last name, even a placeholder one. Maybe she adopts the name Skywalker at the end, and it becomes sorta like "Darth" is for the Sith?
    I've rambled but I'll leave with one question: what was the point of this trilogy? What story did it tell?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth&Justise View Post
    Finally, shoutout to Wander, who on April 12, posted this:
    Holy @#^@!&U@^ That is impressive!!

    And I agree with every word you wrote T&J... as we can all see, this is a divisive film... such a pity a great franchise had to go out like this.
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  13. #33
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    All that stuff I wrote at the start of the thread, here is the very funny Ryan George pretty much saying the exact same thing in his latest Pitch Meeting video:

    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  14. #34
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    Hot'Lanta... home of the Falcons!
    Here are the last three scripts written by Chris Terrio:
    Batman v Superman
    Justice League
    Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

    News flash: Chris Terrio might be a terrible writer.

    -Jason "but I am not backing off from blaming Kathleen Kennedy for having zero idea of the overall story for these three films... I mean, what was her job anyway?" Evans
    Why are you wasting time here when you could be wasting it by listening to the latest episode of the DBR Podcast?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonEvans View Post
    Whew... where do I begin.

    1) The Emperor - It is just offensive that JJ thought he could put Palps in the opening crawl and we would just accept it. Hey JJ, remember the main character from the first 6 films, Anakin/Darth Vader? He sacrificed his life to kill the Emperor. In the space of 2 sentences of yellow text you made his sacrifice meaningless. How can JJ just bring Palps back and not give us any explanation or backstory? What has Palps been doing for the past few decades? Who were the 1000+ Sith guys just watching the final battle (I'd say they were Sith ghosts, but when Palps dies the ghosts physically moved so they are actually there)? Where did all those Final Order ships come from? And don't even get me started on Palps' overall plan...

    Actually, lets do talk about Palps plan. He hangs out on the hidden Sith planet for 30 years or so with his giant armada of planet killing ships. He invented Snoke to rule the galaxy in his place (why?!?!). He gets discovered by Kylo and then brings the First Order under his wing like the old Empire. He orders the First Order and Kylo to find and kill Rey... even though what he really wanted was for Rey to find her way to him so she could kill him and his spirit could inhabit her body. Do I have that right? Then, when Kylo shows up he realizes that Kylo and Rey are Force married, or something like that, and he sucks their energy to bring himself back to life (wasn't he already alive?). I can't even begin to imagine JJ pitched this to Kathleen Kennedy and she said, "yeah, that works!"

    2) The Force - I'm not sure what JJ was thinking but every time he just needed something to happen, he would invent a new Force power for Rey and Kylo to use. Healing? No problem. Teleporting objects across space? Piece of cake. Amazon is going to set up a new delivery service where Rey is in the warehouse, Kylo comes to your home, and she just hands him whatever you ordered. I don't even begin to understand this Force Dyad thing that Palps suddenly started rambling about in the final 15 minutes of the film. What was that?!!? The heroes of Star Wars are people accomplishing great things by force of will, a little luck, and great faith in each other... they are not gods who can rely on magic to do whatever they want.

    3) Fan Service - Look, let's give Chewie a medal. Look, let's have two no-name female characters kiss. Look, Lando is back (does he do anything meaningful?). Look, Rey has really important parents because the Force only belongs to a few families of people in the entire universe and no one else gets to play with it (hey Rian Johnson, <bleep> you). Ugh... was there a single brave choice made in this film?

    4) The Sith Map thingie - Did we really spend close to an hour of this film trying to find a magical triangle? Are you kidding me? Supposedly Luke spent years looking for it (because he suspected Palps was still alive or something?) and Rey just stumbles across it in like 2 days. This probably drove me crazy the most of anything in the movie... every time our heroes needed something it would almost magically appear at their feet. It was offensive storytelling... an abomination. A high school English teacher would have sent this script back if a student turned it in.

    5) Kylo/Ben - Why did he turn from the Dark Side? Was it just because Rey healed him? We spent 2 movies with his father and his uncle/mentor quite literally giving their lives because they believed in him and then he just turned on a dime for no discernible reason. JJ was not satisfied with making Darth's death meaningless, he had to do it to Han and Luke too.

    6) The End - When Kylo died after reviving Rey I laughed out loud... really loudly. It was just sooooo awful.

    Ok, that's enough for now... so frustrating.
    I will give my simple responses to these points. For background, I saw the original SW when I was 11 and it changed my life. Everything after that though has sorta been like James Bond films — I go for the fun and don’t take it very seriously. (George Lucas said in 1977 that he made the first SW “Episode IV” because he wanted to give the sense of joining in the middle of the old Flash Gordon serials — the whole “middle trilogy” thing grew after the fact. These are intended to be escapist pulp fiction stories and that is the mindset I take into the theatre for these).

    1. Emperor. None of the Emperor thing bothers me. The personification of the Dark Side still exists? Why would we think that would not be true? Darth Maul survived in Solo, that is even less likely. I understand the questions about the back story and logic you raise and they are valid points. But this is not Shakespeare, it is a teenage escapist movie. They gloss over back story to get to the action, something I wish the prequels had done frankly.

    2. Force. I do not get the whole force thing that allows folks in different places to be together, but hasn’t the whole final three done that? Seems we burned that bridge years ago. I don’t like it but it’s part of the story now for better or worse.

    3. Fan thing. Let’s face it, putting C3PO, Chewie and R2D2 in any of the last three movies is just fan fluff. It’s part of the cheese that comes with the pie. I don’t see the issue of Rey’s parents remaining “nobodies” or not as a social statement — it’s just a plot point.

    4. Map thing. Again, it’s a plot point on a thinly-plotted action film. I do not see this as more contrived than any Bond film, any Marvel film, or any DC Comic film. It’s the genre.

    5. Kylo/Ben. Not sure why anyone is surprised that the bad guy killed lots of good guys, then gets redeemed in the end. That’s certainly to be expected in about any movie and has already happened in this series once. Unfortunately, everything can not be Breaking Bad (though I wish it was).

    6. The end. We had different expectations as to what this film would be I guess.

    Note that NONE of this is to say that it was a great film, or that a serious critical analysis would not agree with you. For folks like me who are not expecting Citizen Cane, just hoping for better than your average adventure flick — this film is not great but far from horrible. Certainly when compared to the three prequels or even the first two postquel entries.

    (Joker was much better this fall, as was Jojo Rabbit and Knives Out. Cannot wait for 1917. John Wick 3 was better too, as silly as that was).
    Last edited by OldPhiKap; 12-24-2019 at 10:52 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Darth Maul survived in Solo, that is even less likely.
    Not that the general audience would known but if you had young kids a decade ago or are super nerdy (and I use that in a complimentary way) it was expanded in Clone Wars and Rebels.

    Spoiler!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kdogg View Post
    Not that the general audience would known but if you had young kids a decade ago or are super nerdy (and I use that in a complimentary way) it was expanded in Clone Wars and Rebels.

    Spoiler!
    Tatoonie? There are so many possibilities!

  18. #38
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    Raleigh, NC
    Ok, so I really enjoyed this movie. I would say easily a top 4 Star Wars movie, although I need to see it again (probably on the 1st) to properly get a grasp on things. I thought it was fun, the characters all came off well, and ultimately it felt very Star Wars. I was disappointed because I was spoiled on the Rey shooting Force Lightning thing and thought it would ruin the surprise. I was still surprised. I can see how some of the more mystical presentations of the Force might have been off-putting for some, but people who watched The Clone Wars or Rebels are already familiar with some of that stuff with Jedi/Sith temples and what not. I was never a real fan of the Ben/Rey Force bond thing from the beginning, but given that it was already established as a thing I thought the movie did a good job executing it and by the end I had stopped rolling my eyes and enjoyed it. I had also been spoiled on the Rey/Ben kiss. I thought it was going to be terrible...I still didn't like it but it wasn't nearly as bad/cringey as I assumed it would be. I was surprised and a little disappointed when Ben died, but ultimately I think he kind of had to. His redemption arc kind of needed to be "died a hero" because, like Vader, people weren't exactly going to be welcoming him with open arms after his change of heart. The fact that Rey never constructed her own lightsaber was driving me crazy, until...(I do kind of wish Lea's lightsaber had been a color other than blue).

    As far as the criticism for re-introducing Palpatine, I actually didn't think it was as jarring as people made it out to be. It wasn't as though it was treated as a given, even in the movie people were like "wait, what? He's dead!" I also think it makes some sense. Sidious used the ability to overcome death to tempt Anakin to the Dark Side, and then was like "oops I don't actually know it maybe we can figure it out." It would be perfectly within character for it to turn out that he did in fact know how to overcome death, and he just didn't use it to help Anakin save Padme because why would he have? Padme dying was part of Palpatine getting Anakin to permanently become Vader, his right hand. I ultimately had no problem with this, despite going in thinking that I would. I didn't love the visual aesthetics of some of the Palpatine scenes, but it wasn't a huge issue for me.

    The other big criticism, "retconning" Rey's parentage...it wasn't a retcon! Rey's parents literally being nobody was always a red herring...people were saying as much as soon as TLJ came out. We saw them fly away on a space ship, so "junk traders who died in a pauper's grave on Jakku" seemed obviously false. There was always going to be something interesting about Rey's parents or lineage.

    It did feel like the movie packed a lot in. My argument is that, well, it had too. Sure, characters were challenged, but nothing really happened. There was no real story set up, the end of Last Jedi could have just as easily been the start of the first movie in the trilogy. I felt like the Resistance literally having their consoles set up outside with no buildings was a little over the top in terms of them being on their last legs, but that isn't really a big deal.

    Oh. I wasn't a big fan of hyperspace skipping, but whatever.

    Remaining questions:
    Who TF are the Knights of Ren and what exactly do they do?
    How did someone get Anakin's lightsaber back from Bespin?
    Where the heck did Luke's green saber go?
    Why was Poe flying with R2 instead of his trusty BB8?

    Things I want:
    Some show/miniseries where we get to see what the Knights of Ren were about
    Ditto for Luke's story between RotJ and when his Jedi Academy is destroyed
    Something live-action between Revenge of the Sith and New Hope where we can see Vader go HAM like he did at the end of Rogue One

    I'm pretty sure I had a bunch more things I wanted to say/ask while I was watching and immediately after the movie, but there's so much going on! I'll probably follow this up with a post responding to some other commenters.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by luburch View Post
    Palpatine being back out of nowhere and with no explanation. We saw him die in Episode VI. I need at least some information on how he came back and how he was 'responsible' for Snoke.
    When Sidious talked to Anakin about overcoming death, he also mentioned the ability to manipulate the Force to create life. Palpatine knew (or, in the time between movies, learned while on the Sith homeworld) how to do this and created Snoke. Think of Snoke as basically a Force golem or something.

    Finn just randomly has the force all of a sudden? How does that happen? And he never tells Rey about it after hinting at it the entire film?
    I think it might have been established in some other media (comics or something) prior to this movie that Finn was Force sensitive. I didn't read any of that material, but I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned when I was reading stuff online somewhere. Not that the typical moviegoer would know that, so it would still be a surprise. You could probably see Finn wielding a lightsaber in TFA as a bit of foreshadowing there.


    Quote Originally Posted by crimsondevil View Post
    I had the same thought - 2 movies. Although that would ruin the whole trilogy of trilogies thing.
    It definitely could have been two movies, and probably should have been, but we got TLJ instead. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine if that was worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Loved the movie. But it made me hate Rian Johnson more than I hate Jar-Jar.

    I am doomed to wonder how great this trilogy COULD have been if JJ had been able to do all 3.
    I didn't want to quote the whole post, but I thought the whole post was spot-on. Very much my take on things as well. I also feel like people are simultaneously criticizing JJ for tossing out things that Rian did in TLJ, while also criticizing him for adhering to other things also set up by Rian in TLJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    "I want the four-hour version of this film. I’m told one exists — a long, possibly clumsy cut. But I want it. Because there’s so much missing here."


    I'd buy that for a dollar!


    I REALLY want to see all four hours. PLEASE!
    I would buy that for at least two dollars. Rarely do I think a director's cut improves on the theatrical release, but this might be an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    I will give my simple responses to these points. For background, I saw the original SW when I was 11 and it changed my life. Everything after that though has sorta been like James Bond films — I go for the fun and don’t take it very seriously. (George Lucas said in 1977 that he made the first SW “Episode IV” because he wanted to give the sense of joining in the middle of the old Flash Gordon serials — the whole “middle trilogy” thing grew after the fact. These are intended to be escapist pulp fiction stories and that is the mindset I take into the theatre for these).
    This gets to the heart of the disagreement between folks who loved TLJ and folks who loved basically all the movies except​ TLJ.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acymetric View Post
    Things I want:
    Some show/miniseries where we get to see what the Knights of Ren were about
    Ditto for Luke's story between RotJ and when his Jedi Academy is destroyed
    Something live-action between Revenge of the Sith and New Hope where we can see Vader go HAM like he did at the end of Rogue One

    I'm pretty sure I had a bunch more things I wanted to say/ask while I was watching and immediately after the movie, but there's so much going on! I'll probably follow this up with a post responding to some other commenters.
    Oh. I also want something to wrap up the fates of Ezra/Ahsoka/Sabine. The fact that Ahsoka speaks to Rey suggests that maybe she's dead, but I guess not necessarily and in any case we don't know how she died or what the heck happened to Ezra.

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