i can't take it anymore ii

[pamtar]

In Dukes case experience isnt talent or consistency, its a player's or team's ability to preform under the guidelines and demands of the program. K has paramiters set that he believes a team needs to follow. These parameters may push talent aside in order to aid cumulative progression. In the case of most of the fresman you listed they are experienced based on the complexity of their program's game plan. Dribble dribble shoot shoot is much easier to master than accepting your role and not interfering with the coach's process - whatever that may include. In fact Duke's freshman are probably more experienced in reguards to bball IQ than most of the guys you listed. They have to play for Coach K though. Here experience means making things work and the team as a whole has clearly not done that.

[dukeimac]

Well, I see things in another light.

Scheyer - the guy to fill JJ's shoes (pressure). This guy is a scorer and not a defender. His lack of speed showed up against other quick guards.

Thomas - the guy to help fill Sheldon's shoes (pressure). This guy was a scorer and not a defender. His lack of experience playing against more physical guys showed. He is more of a 3 than a 4 or 5.

Zoubek - the guy to help fill Sheldon' shoes (pressure). This guy was always the tallest and biggest guy thus he was tested by more physical guys and didn't respond well.

They weren't a great class and they'll get better. Next year's class will look better than this years but the question I have is Smith, Singler and King are all scores but do they play defense?

[imagepro]

have a thumbs down symbol beside of it? It's at least as interesting as ones with thumbs up. It's sort of insulting to everyone who has posted here to label it as such. It's like sahying it isn't worthy or something.

Who is the "power" to label posts as up/down? And do they label it based on their own opinion, because it's their friend, or just what exactly IS the criteria for such ratings? Dukie8, I guess they don't like you, huh?

[dukie8]

i keep reading this and i don't understand it. please tell me how a team that finished a distant 2nd in a much weaker acc and lost early in the acc and ncaa tournaments (gasp! to an 11-seed!) had a much more successful season than us this year.

very easy. let's compare the 2. first, let's look at the experience (or lackthereof) of the 2 teams.

this is unc's lineup that started its 1st round ncaa game with career minutes played going into 2006:

terry -- 249
hansbrough -- 0 (freshman)
noel -- 1137 + his freshman year (apparently unc didn't track min played in 2003)
frasor -- 0 (freshman)
miller -- 92 (plus 515 at jmu)

this is duke's lineup that started its 1st round ncaa game with career minutes played going into 2007:

paulus -- 1163
mcroberts -- 883
nelson -- 1151
scheyer -- 0 (freshman)
henderson -- 0 (freshman)

as you can see, duke actually was MORE experienced than unc's team last year. unc had noel and that's it. duke this year had 3 guys each with more experience than the unc's roster minus noel COMBINED. so right off the bat, it is clear that this inexperiencitis people like to point to for duke this year actually was much more severe at unc last year.

now let's look at what went on in each season.

unc:

*23-8 overall (10th sos)
*12-4 in acc (2nd)
*1 win in the acc tournament
*1 win in the ncaa tournament (lost to 11 seed gm who went on to the final 4)
*nonconference wins at kentucky and arizona
*finished the regular season on a 7 game winning streak
*beat duke at duke on senior day

duke:
*22-11 overall (3rd sos)
*8-8 in acc (tied for 6th)
*0 wins in the acc tournament
*0 wins in the acc tournament (lost to 11 seed vcu who went on to lose in the 2nd round)
*nonconference wins at home against georgetown and indiana and neutral gonzaga
*finished the regular season on a 2 game losing streak
*swept by unc and maryland

so let's summarize:
*overall record a slight edge to unc
*conference performance edge to unc
*acc tournament edge to unc (1 win is better than 0)
*ncaa tournament edge to unc (1 win is better than 0 and lost to a team that continued winning)
*nonconference games even (duke's weren't on the road but there were 3 good ones versus 2)
*end of season edge to unc (winning streaks are better than losing streaks)
*record against rivals edge to unc (sweeps are sweeps)

the acc was better this year but not by as much as people around here like to think (kenpom had it #3 last year #1 by a whisker this year and the acc's performance in the ncaa tournament hardly has been remarkable). what metrics are you using that led you to conclude that a LESS experienced unc team last year had a worse season than duke this year?

[Jumbo]

have a thumbs down symbol beside of it? It's at least as interesting as ones with thumbs up. It's sort of insulting to everyone who has posted here to label it as such. It's like sahying it isn't worthy or something.

Who is the "power" to label posts as up/down? And do they label it based on their own opinion, because it's their friend, or just what exactly IS the criteria for such ratings? Dukie8, I guess they don't like you, huh?

The person who creates the thread can add an icon next to his thread. In this case, it appears. Dukie8 included a thumbs down. You can also put a thumbs down, or several other symbols, next to any message you post. Simply look at the Post Icons section below the area where you type.

[dukie8]

The person who creates the thread can add an icon next to his thread. In this case, it appears. Dukie8 included a thumbs down. You can also put a thumbs down, or several other symbols, next to any message you post. Simply look at the Post Icons section below the area where you type.

i wasn't aware of that capability...

[Jumbo]

i wasn't aware of that capability...

In that case, I have no idea how a thumbs-down got added next to the thread.

[dukie8]

In that case, I have no idea how a thumbs-down got added next to the thread.

i may have inadvertently hit that button when i created the thread.

[phaedrus]

good points, dukie8, and based on that i agree that unc last year did have a better season than us this year.

but people point to unc last year as an example of what we could have been this year, as if the contrast between the two is enough to show that williams got them to overachieve while we underachieved. swap our season this year with unc's last year, and i don't think we're in any different situation. we'd all be just about as disappointed - think if we'd beaten nc state and vcu (only a difference of 2 baskets), duplicating unc's success last year, and ask yourself if you'd still have started this thread. i imagine you would have.

point is, it makes little sense to point at unc '06 and wish we could have had that, since we would have felt let down with that too.

[dukie8]

good points, dukie8, and based on that i agree that unc last year did have a better season than us this year.

but people point to unc last year as an example of what we could have been this year, as if the contrast between the two is enough to show that williams got them to overachieve while we underachieved. swap our season this year with unc's last year, and i don't think we're in any different situation. we'd all be just about as disappointed - think if we'd beaten nc state and vcu (only a difference of 2 baskets), duplicating unc's success last year, and ask yourself if you'd still have started this thread. i imagine you would have.

point is, it makes little sense to point at unc '06 and wish we could have had that, since we would have felt let down with that too.

i disagree. if we had beaten unc at home (not a stretch since we were winning almost the entire game) and beat maryland 1 time, we would not have been playing on thurs of the acc tournament. if we won our first game on friday (pick an opponent), then, with those extra 3 wins, we probably would have been a 3 seed (maybe a 4). if we then beat say albany or miami of ohio in the first round but then lost to some mid major, like winthrop, that was en route to the final 4 with a win against, say florida, i think that most people, myself included, would be saying that we just laid the foundation to hopefully a final 4 run next year. given how the last month unraveled, i cannot say that with a straight face.

[imagepro]

for that explanation of the "thumbs down" thing. I had no idea, nor did Dukie8, who started the thread.

If he didn't do it (& I doubt he hit it inadvertently, as that would be VERY difficult to do, though maybe not impossible) I wonder who did. And why in the world would someone post a thread, and rate it thumbs down themself? That seems highly unlikely from my viewpoint, which I admit may be incorrect.

Sure sounds as if someone else did it. But you taught Dukie8 and myself something new today. See, you're a moderator for a reason, and doing a good job too. Thank you for the tip!

[imagepro]

Change your rating to thumbs up Dukie8. I enjoyed reading all the posts here. It certainly does not warrant a thumbs down. Give yourself the credit deserved my friend. You did a lot of research, and all points, by you and Phaedrus were interesting. Nice job!

[Jumbo]

for that explanation of the "thumbs down" thing. I had no idea, nor did Dukie8, who started the thread.

If he didn't do it (& I doubt he hit it inadvertently, as that would be VERY difficult to do, though maybe not impossible) I wonder who did. And why in the world would someone post a thread, and rate it thumbs down themself? That seems highly unlikely from my viewpoint, which I admit may be incorrect.

Sure sounds as if someone else did it. But you taught Dukie8 and myself something new today. See, you're a moderator for a reason, and doing a good job too. Thank you for the tip!

All the rivals.com boards that most schools use have the same thing. As far as I can tell, only the original poster can mark a thread "thumbs down," "thumbs up," or anything else. I even tried to see if I could, as a moderator, edit it out of Dukie8's post. I can't.

On other boards, people use the "thumbs down" symbol all the time. For instance, when Carolina people whine about Roy playing too many guys, they might start a thread called "Roy's rotation" with a thumbs down next to it, as a way to let people know that they're ticked off about it. In other words, it's a way for the thread creator to expression his sentiment on the topic.

It's pretty easy to click the icon by accident -- it's almost right above the "submit reply" button. Dukie8 and I are both pretty sure that's what happened -- no need to read anything else into it.