Definition of Country Music

[SoCalDukeFan]

What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

[billybreen]

To paraphrase Potter Stewart, I can't define country music, but I know it when I hear it. When my ears are bleeding, that's country.

[Master Shake]

What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

I too share a distaste for top 40 country. But your choice of Patsy Cline is intresting as she was a bit of a pop crossover. Also, have you listened to any old country lately (like on XM13): it certainly wasn't all Hank Williams back in the early 50s. He had huge hits, but he was still marginalized. Nashville has pushed its tame version of country for a long time now.

[Shammrog]

To paraphrase Potter Stewart, I can't define country music, but I know it when I hear it. When my ears are bleeding, that's country.

Me too. Which leads me to the following question:

My wife was watching last night, and I found myself pondering the distinctive country "twang" in most country music.

Noting that most (e.g., British) accents disappear when singing, is this "twang" a DELIBERATE affectation, or just a natural carryover from the "Southern accent"???

(And, can a song be "country" without the twang?)

[colchar]

What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

This kind of bugs me a bit. Not your post per se but the general attitude that new country somehow isn't country (although I will agree that a lot of it sucks as I really don't like bands like Lonestar). Many of the people I've met who claim to listen to 'real' country and get all pretentious about it are those who might listen to one act - Johhny Cash - basically because it has become cool and hip to do so (damn that movie). They couldn't name another country artist if their lives depended on it (note: am not including you in this category, I'm merely venting here).

The new country movement (defined as a combination of rock and country or country crossing over to rock) isn't new at all. Conway Twitty, who nobody could argue wasn't a true country artist, released a single in the 1950s that didn't sell all that well but the B-side of which got considerable airplay. Many people believed it was actually Elvis singing under a different name.

Crystal Gale, the younger sister of Loretta Lynn who can easily be deemed the Queen of country music, recorded a lot of crossover songs in the 1970s.

Hank Williams Jr., who is the son of someone who might be deemed the King of country music, started his career basically mimicking his Dad (largely through the influence of his Mom). He rebelled against that and went his own way which was to incorporate rock into his music. He had a lot of trouble getting airplay for a while but eventually became hugely popular.

And Dolly Parton, who nobody with any common sense can claim was not a 'real' country artist, also recorded a lot of crossover songs.

So the new country movement has been around for a lot longer than most people realize and was started by artists who were, in essence, country royalty (all of the acts mentioned above would qualify as country royalty).

Plus, many of the artists who play what might be considered new country are also the ones who are releasing other songs that are very traditional...I'm thinking here specifically of Carolyn Dawn Johnson. Listen to Head Over High Heels and it would be considered new country. But listen to Georgia and tell me that doesn't sound like something that coulda come out in 1970 and been a huge hit.

ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

[SoCalDukeFan]

This kind of bugs me a bit. Not your post per se but the general attitude that new country somehow isn't country (although I will agree that a lot of it sucks as I really don't like bands like Lonestar). Many of the people I've met who claim to listen to 'real' country and get all pretentious about it are those who might listen to one act - Johhny Cash - basically because it has become cool and hip to do so (damn that movie). They couldn't name another country artist if their lives depended on it (note: am not including you in this category, I'm merely venting here).

The new country movement (defined as a combination of rock and country or country crossing over to rock) isn't new at all. Conway Twitty, who nobody could argue wasn't a true country artist, released a single in the 1950s that didn't sell all that well but the B-side of which got considerable airplay. Many people believed it was actually Elvis singing under a different name.

Crystal Gale, the younger sister of Loretta Lynn who can easily be deemed the Queen of country music, recorded a lot of crossover songs in the 1970s.

Hank Williams Jr., who is the son of someone who might be deemed the King of country music, started his career basically mimicking his Dad (largely through the influence of his Mom). He rebelled against that and went his own way which was to incorporate rock into his music. He had a lot of trouble getting airplay for a while but eventually became hugely popular.

And Dolly Parton, who nobody with any common sense can claim was not a 'real' country artist, also recorded a lot of crossover songs.

So the new country movement has been around for a lot longer than most people realize and was started by artists who were, in essence, country royalty (all of the acts mentioned above would qualify as country royalty).

Plus, many of the artists who play what might be considered new country are also the ones who are releasing other songs that are very traditional...I'm thinking here specifically of Carolyn Dawn Johnson. Listen to Head Over High Heels and it would be considered new country. But listen to Georgia and tell me that doesn't sound like something that coulda come out in 1970 and been a huge hit.

ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

I am not a traditionalist about this at all. I fully understand that country music is much more than a guy with a guitar and a twang.

However country music to me should show emotion and feeling. I can hear the lyrics. On the ACM show Underwood, Swift, and Rimes seemed to shouting rather than singing.

I loved "Blue", a song LeAnne Rimes did several years ago as a teenager. I did not like at all the song she did on the ACM awards. I loved Carrie Underwood singing "Make the World Go Away" but did not like "Last Name."
I saw her concert with Keith Urban in Anaheim. Most of the time she was screaming to top the band who was much too loud. Urban was great and they were great together for one duet with his band. I like her records much better than the live show and on TV, though she does look great.

So it is not the crossover that bothers me but it is that I can not hear the lyrics and the emotion seems to be energy expended to be heard above the band.

Colchar, did you watch the ACM show? If so, what did you think.

SoCal

[colchar]

I am not a traditionalist about this at all. I fully understand that country music is much more than a guy with a guitar and a twang.

However country music to me should show emotion and feeling. I can hear the lyrics. On the ACM show Underwood, Swift, and Rimes seemed to shouting rather than singing.

I loved "Blue", a song LeAnne Rimes did several years ago as a teenager. I did not like at all the song she did on the ACM awards. I loved Carrie Underwood singing "Make the World Go Away" but did not like "Last Name."
I saw her concert with Keith Urban in Anaheim. Most of the time she was screaming to top the band who was much too loud. Urban was great and they were great together for one duet with his band. I like her records much better than the live show and on TV, though she does look great.

So it is not the crossover that bothers me but it is that I can not hear the lyrics and the emotion seems to be energy expended to be heard above the band.

Perhaps this might be a record company thing? Or just some production issue with some of these artists that htye might not have too much control over right now.

Colchar, did you watch the ACM show? If so, what did you think.

No, unfortunately I didn't as I was recording other stuff at the time (my PVR will only record two shows at once and, while that is happening you either have to watch one of them or watch something you've already recorded). They will be rebroadcast on CMT sometime this week though and I will definitely be recording them then.

[The Gordog]

What exactly is "country music."

I happened to watch the Academy of Country Music Award Show at someone's home Sunday night. I fail to see what was country about the single performances of Carrie Underwood, Taylor Swift, or LeAnne Rimes. All 3 seemed to me to doing screaming pop songs.

Carrie Underwood and Brad Paisley were great.

My problem is can you just call something "country" and it is.

Patsy Cline et al must be spinning their graves.

SoCal

COuntry music is defined by the way it's mixed and produced. Nashville style: I know it when I hear it, particularly in the way the bass is put in. And yes, a lot of so called country these days is really Pop/Rock with a cowboy hat on.

[Shammrog]

COuntry music is defined by the way it's mixed and produced. Nashville style: I know it when I hear it, particularly in the way the bass is put in. And yes, a lot of so called country these days is really Pop/Rock with a cowboy hat on.

Serious question - what about the twang? (See post above.)

[rockymtn devil]

ETA: We could also talk about a lot of rock acts that could easily be considered country, some of them even as more traditional country acts.

I agree 100% with this, and find that "alt-country" (can we use that term now that No Depression doesn't exist?) is much more traditional than what is played on "new country" stations.

I posted a few weeks ago that Whiskeytown's "Stranger's Almanac" is, IMO, the best country record of the last 20 years and it certainly has some punk twists to it. But some of Ryan Adams's subsequent solo efforts come a lot closer to traditional country than alt-anything ("Jacksonville City Nights"). In this vein, I consider post-Crosby era Byrds to be more country than rock ("Sweetheart of the Rodeo"), and I think the same can be said for the entire Gram Parsons catalogue.

[killerleft]

Country music is what it's audience says it is. The audience has been saying for at least 30 years that pop music with a steel guitar thrown in is country music. Since country music stations comprise 40% of all music stations (more than any other genre), many of the stars are pop-rock oriented. These singers are following their dreams to be successful professional musicians, and they bring their influences with them.

Give me some Americana music anytime. Of course, Americana includes country-pop bands before (and after) they have hit the big-time. I would rather listen to the Avett Bros., Jerry Douglas, John Cowan, Iris Dement, and any of a thousand singers and bands doing bluegrass, newgrass, or traditional country than hear what mostly passes for country nowadays.

I must admit, the ladies of Nashville Country are some of the best eye candy around, and most have very good to excellent voices. If they start doing some real old-time country, I will start spending some cash to hear them sing.

[DevilAlumna]

What I know about country music is it has to have the following to be a true Country-Western song.

Mama,
trains,
trucks,
prison, or
gettin' drunk --

As in,

"I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck,
She got run over by the damned old train."

[colchar]

Since country music stations comprise 40% of all music stations (more than any other genre)

Really? There are more country stations than rock stations?

I must admit, the ladies of Nashville Country are some of the best eye candy around

No kidding. Can't beat the cowgirl look.

and most have very good to excellent voices. If they start doing some real old-time country, I will start spending some cash to hear them sing.

Some of them are. And some of what they are doing is very very good (see my comments about Carolyn Dawn Johnson earlier in the thread).

[colchar]

What I know about country music is it has to have the following to be a true Country-Western song.

Mama,
trains,
trucks,
prison, or
gettin' drunk --

As in,

"I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck,
She got run over by the damned old train."

You forgot about the faithful old dog dying.

[Shammrog]

What I know about country music is it has to have the following to be a true Country-Western song.

Mama,
trains,
trucks,
prison, or
gettin' drunk --

As in,

"I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain.
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck,
She got run over by the damned old train."

She can quote "Darlin'"
She votes for Mace Windu (not my choice, but a bona fide bad*ss; the Star Wars equivalent of Nate James)...

DevilAlumna is perfect! When are you going to reply to my post (forgot the thread) in which you are to name a location (in the "Beaches" thread) for our tryst?

Shammrog, captivated by DevilAlumna...

[Johnboy]

Me too. Which leads me to the following question:

My wife was watching last night, and I found myself pondering the distinctive country "twang" in most country music.

Noting that most (e.g., British) accents disappear when singing, is this "twang" a DELIBERATE affectation, or just a natural carryover from the "Southern accent"???

(And, can a song be "country" without the twang?)

Most British accents disappear(ed) because the people singing those pop songs want to sound American (like Elvis or their other American influences) - just ask the Beatles. There are plenty of Brits and Aussies who sing with their accents these days, and you can hear them (ever hear any Lilley Allen?)

I like to sing bluegrass and old country songs as well as listen to them, and for me, if you don't have the twang, it's just not right. I'm OK with folk without the twang, but country music and bluegrass need a twang - they sound strange - not gen-u-wine - without the twang.

Even so, I think very few country artists are "putting on" their accent - you listen to them speak and it's there. How's that for equivocating?

[DukieInKansas]

You forgot about the faithful old dog dying.

There were no dying dogs in the perfect country western song!

"You Don't Have to Call Me Darlin', Darlin'" of courcse brings to mind his other great song - "Divers Do It Deeper". Thank you David Allan Coe.

[billybreen]

There were no dying dogs in the perfect country western song!

"You Don't Have to Call Me Darlin', Darlin'" of courcse brings to mind his other great song - "Divers Do It Deeper". Thank you David Allan Coe.

David Allen Coe is a racist and a horrible person, IMHO.

Just so I'm not the annoying country hater in this thread, I will say that I have an abiding love for alt-country (Cracker, Drivin n Cryin, The Jayhawks, etc). And I can't resist tapping my toes to some Alabama.

[Shammrog]

David Allen Coe is a racist and a horrible person, IMHO.

Just so I'm not the annoying country hater in this thread, I will say that I have an abiding love for alt-country (Cracker, Drivin n Cryin, The Jayhawks, etc). And I can't resist tapping my toes to some Alabama.

(Are you serious that David Allen Coe is a racist and horrible person? - if so, why? Never heard that.)

[DukieInKansas]

I can't believe I put the wrong title for the song - the correct title for the Darlin' song is "You Never Even Call Me by My NAme".