Wallace Wade Upgrades

[Bluedawg]

The renovations for Wallace Wade Stadium have been delayed because of difficulty in obtaining a permit from the city of Durham for the University's $5 million project, administrators confirmed this week.

Renovations delayed for Wally Wade

Hopefully then bathrooms can be done by Football season!

[Shammrog]

Hopefully then bathrooms can be done by Football season!

Typical Durham BULL! What do restroom and concession improvements have to do with "sidewalk standards" anyway?

(And considering what a hellhole much of Durham is anyway, sidewalk issues related to new renovations should be the least of their worries.)

I got blasted for suggesting (as the lacrosse fiasco was starting to fall apart under scrutiny) that Duke secede from Durham. Why NOT secede? What benefit does Duke get by being part of incorporated Durham???

[Bluedog]

Hopefully then bathrooms can be done by Football season!

The article directly states, "the restrooms and concession stands at Wallace Wade Stadium will not be completed before the beginning of the next football season." Perhaps you were being sarcastic and I missed it.

[GopherBlue]

Typical Durham BULL! What do restroom and concession improvements have to do with "sidewalk standards" anyway?

(And considering what a hellhole much of Durham is anyway, sidewalk issues related to new renovations should be the least of their worries.)

Shammrog, I take exception to your blanket categorization of much of Durham as a "hellhole". It seems that you either do not know Durham very well, or have a very narrow view of what makes a city nice.

Sure, Durham, like any city, has it's warts. But good far outweighs the bad. The fact is, Duke always has been and always will be part of Durham. And just like every other citizen of Durham, Duke must comply with state and local building codes.

Frustrating? Absolutely. I am just as disappointed as the next person to have to frequent the troughs in WW again this fall. But the fact remains - Bassett Drive is a mess for cars and pedestrians alike (not to mention the physically handicapped) for any Duke athletic event. Perhaps the project planners and city can put their heads together and find a reasonable solution for pedestrian traffic without calling on the lumberjacks. Let's take the time necessary to do this thing right!

[Huh?]

Obviously the horseshoe isn't giving us any good luck, lets just make it a standard bowl.

[Bluedawg]

The article directly states, "the restrooms and concession stands at Wallace Wade Stadium will not be completed before the beginning of the next football season." Perhaps you were being sarcastic and I missed it.

Actually slightly sarcastic. I'm hoping they are downplaying expectations. I had read earlier that they were still planned to have them finished.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The primary source of any mild frustration I feel about such delays of the project revolve around wondering why those charged with planning the project didn't check out the local codes more thoroughly prior to the submission of an application for a permit. Having been involved in a variety of construction projects in Durham over the years, I suspect there are some good ways to comply with such requirements while preserving the character and essence of the desired design.

[Shammrog]

Shammrog, I take exception to your blanket categorization of much of Durham as a "hellhole". It seems that you either do not know Durham very well, or have a very narrow view of what makes a city nice.

Sure, Durham, like any city, has it's warts. But good far outweighs the bad. The fact is, Duke always has been and always will be part of Durham. And just like every other citizen of Durham, Duke must comply with state and local building codes.

Frustrating? Absolutely. I am just as disappointed as the next person to have to frequent the troughs in WW again this fall. But the fact remains - Bassett Drive is a mess for cars and pedestrians alike (not to mention the physically handicapped) for any Duke athletic event. Perhaps the project planners and city can put their heads together and find a reasonable solution for pedestrian traffic without calling on the lumberjacks. Let's take the time necessary to do this thing right!

Whoa - hold on. When I said "parts" are a hellhole, I was deliberately avoiding a blanket categorization. There are, however, far bigger building travesties in Durham than a lack of sidewalks near Wally Wade.

And, the renovations have nothing to do with that anyway. Now, the way building codes work this may or may not be a requirement to do anything unrelated - just as this bureaucratic hassle may or may not have anything to do with the fact that it is Duke that is applying to make them. The lacrosse scandal should have shown us that Duke is a convenient lightning-rod for many in Durham to base their problems on; one that probably is not ignored by local politicians.

All that aside, the question remains - I can see that Duke brings a lot to Durham including being its single largest benefactor, employer, etc. What does being in Durham bring to Duke (that Duke wouldn't have were it separately incorporated or unincorporated in Durham County)?

[arnie]

Whoa - hold on. When I said "parts" are a hellhole, I was deliberately avoiding a blanket categorization. There are, however, far bigger building travesties in Durham than a lack of sidewalks near Wally Wade.

And, the renovations have nothing to do with that anyway. Now, the way building codes work this may or may not be a requirement to do anything unrelated - just as this bureaucratic hassle may or may not have anything to do with the fact that it is Duke that is applying to make them. The lacrosse scandal should have shown us that Duke is a convenient lightning-rod for many in Durham to base their problems on; one that probably is not ignored by local politicians.

All that aside, the question remains - I can see that Duke brings a lot to Durham including being its single largest benefactor, employer, etc. What does being in Durham bring to Duke (that Duke wouldn't have were it separately incorporated or unincorporated in Durham County)?

IMO living near and working in and around Durham, Shammrogs description of Durham is fairly accurate and No, except for Duke, I don't think the good outweighs the bad when comparing to other cities in the US. Compared to areas of Outer Mongolia or Sudan or Mexico, you may have a point.[/I]

[Duvall]

Should this thread be merged with one of the discussions of why everyone seems to hate Duke?

[watzone]

http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog/...8/3647288.html

P in it while you can!

http://myblogdevils.eponym.com/blog/...8/3647291.html - scenic!

[DU82]

Whoa - hold on. When I said "parts" are a hellhole, I was deliberately avoiding a blanket categorization. There are, however, far bigger building travesties in Durham than a lack of sidewalks near Wally Wade.

And, the renovations have nothing to do with that anyway. Now, the way building codes work this may or may not be a requirement to do anything unrelated - just as this bureaucratic hassle may or may not have anything to do with the fact that it is Duke that is applying to make them. The lacrosse scandal should have shown us that Duke is a convenient lightning-rod for many in Durham to base their problems on; one that probably is not ignored by local politicians.

All that aside, the question remains - I can see that Duke brings a lot to Durham including being its single largest benefactor, employer, etc. What does being in Durham bring to Duke (that Duke wouldn't have were it separately incorporated or unincorporated in Durham County)?

Wouldn't matter, at least from a development standpoint. There's a unified development ordinance for Durham City and County, and the university must meet those standards. Duke is pretty bad when it comes to meeting these standards, or trying to get out of them. Pedestrian facilities probably top the list. (And I do have some background on the subject.) Had I reviewed these plans, I would have had the same recommendations.

A simple question: how do pedestrians get to the new facilities (yes, these renovations are new facilities, for a public meeting place) from the surrounding road/pedestrian network? Walk against traffic down Bassett Drive. Not a real good, safe solution. Walking to Cameron from the Fuqua lot, one of the Iron Duke lots, and the one I park at, is embarrasing, given the mud, potholes, etc., on the "paved" path between Science Drive and the soccer stadium (where the walkways are much better.) Forcing Duke to spend a little money on basic facilities to meet simple standards is not a bad thing. (Similar to the threads about the basic facilities in WW that brought all this up.)

[Bluedawg]

Wouldn't matter, at least from a development standpoint. There's a unified development ordinance for Durham City and County, and the university must meet those standards. Duke is pretty bad when it comes to meeting these standards, or trying to get out of them. Pedestrian facilities probably top the list. (And I do have some background on the subject.) Had I reviewed these plans, I would have had the same recommendations.

A simple question: how do pedestrians get to the new facilities (yes, these renovations are new facilities, for a public meeting place) from the surrounding road/pedestrian network? Walk against traffic down Bassett Drive. Not a real good, safe solution. Walking to Cameron from the Fuqua lot, one of the Iron Duke lots, and the one I park at, is embarrasing, given the mud, potholes, etc., on the "paved" path between Science Drive and the soccer stadium (where the walkways are much better.) Forcing Duke to spend a little money on basic facilities to meet simple standards is not a bad thing. (Similar to the threads about the basic facilities in WW that brought all this up.)

You get to the "new facilities" from the stadium concourse. Why does access from parking lots for all over campus make any difference?

[DU82]

You get to the "new facilities" from the stadium concourse. Why does access from parking lots for all over campus make any difference?

How do you get to the concourse from Science Drive? Drive? Walk all the way to TowerView and enter there? Not reasonable for pedestrians, especially when Duke directs patrons to the lots on Science Drive (the lot next to 751 for instance.)

My comment about the path along the turf field heading to Cameron is from my inviting my former boss to the NC State game (not to mention every game after it's rained.) He needs a wheelchair to get around, and I park in the 751 lot. Trying to get from that lot to the soccer stadium was a challenge, because of the lack of proper pedestrian facilities, he had to travel in the street, with traffic going both ways. There's no sidewalk from the 751 lot to Science Drive, so he had to be in the ingress driveway, while cars are entering (there were cars/parking bumpers in the way to get to the egress driveway.) Then he had to go up a driveway to the path next to the turf field, which is asphalt and a mess. All this money, and Duke can't spend a little money to do something simple and necessary. It's a basic need to connect all public facilities with proper paths.

The article mentioned Duke trying to circumvent the process. That's absolutely right, and unfortunately a typical attitude of the Duke administration in these areas.

(As an aside, yes, we could have parked in the handicapped parking area, however the carts used provided no ability to put my boss's wheelchair up on the cart so that he wouldn't have to wheel up the steep hill at Whitford, which, after you're up the hill, you're dropped into the street/parking area as well.)

While on this rant, those heading to Cameron from the soccer stadium (those of us who parked in the 751 lot, or on Bassett Drive) who were following the pedestrian paths provided were usually confonted by having the visiting team's bus parked on the asphalt path connecting the soccer stadium to Whitfield. Really good planning there, too.

(Mods, let me know when to take this to the public policy board, I know it's getting close.)

[-jk]

How do you get to the concourse from Science Drive? Drive? Walk all the way to TowerView and enter there? Not reasonable for pedestrians, especially when Duke directs patrons to the lots on Science Drive (the lot next to 751 for instance.)

My comment about the path along the turf field heading to Cameron is from my inviting my former boss to the NC State game (not to mention every game after it's rained.) He needs a wheelchair to get around, and I park in the 751 lot. Trying to get from that lot to the soccer stadium was a challenge, because of the lack of proper pedestrian facilities, he had to travel in the street, with traffic going both ways. There's no sidewalk from the 751 lot to Science Drive, so he had to be in the ingress driveway, while cars are entering (there were cars/parking bumpers in the way to get to the egress driveway.) Then he had to go up a driveway to the path next to the turf field, which is asphalt and a mess. All this money, and Duke can't spend a little money to do something simple and necessary. It's a basic need to connect all public facilities with proper paths.

The article mentioned Duke trying to circumvent the process. That's absolutely right, and unfortunately a typical attitude of the Duke administration in these areas.

(As an aside, yes, we could have parked in the handicapped parking area, however the carts used provided no ability to put my boss's wheelchair up on the cart so that he wouldn't have to wheel up the steep hill at Whitford, which, after you're up the hill, you're dropped into the street/parking area as well.)

While on this rant, those heading to Cameron from the soccer stadium (those of us who parked in the 751 lot, or on Bassett Drive) who were following the pedestrian paths provided were usually confonted by having the visiting team's bus parked on the asphalt path connecting the soccer stadium to Whitfield. Really good planning there, too.

(Mods, let me know when to take this to the public policy board, I know it's getting close.)

I'll second this sentiment (and also vouch for DU82's professional credentials in this area). For basketball games, I park in the 751 lot. My wife frequently walks with a cane but doesn't have a handicap plate. The path - more dirt, puddles, and roots than asphalt - along Frank Bassett is very difficult for her. She either stumbles along that path or she dodges cars on the road. Neither is terribly pleasant for someone with difficulty walking. And there is no sidewalk along Whitfield, so it's all car-dodging.

(And I think we're nowhere close to moving this to PP; it's still very much an on-topic discussion of the Duke athletics experience.)

-jk

[Bluedawg]

How do you get to the concourse from Science Drive? Drive? Walk all the way to TowerView and enter there? Not reasonable for pedestrians, especially when Duke directs patrons to the lots on Science Drive (the lot next to 751 for instance.)

That was based on the fact that all that is being changed is inside the stadium. The entire "facility" is not being changed.

Later on when the make more whole scale facility upgrades them yes, i can see the fuss about sidewalks leading up to the stadium, but all that is being changed are the bathrooms and concessions which are accessible from the concourse.

I agree that access to the stadium is bad and changes really need to be made. however, this looks more like a power struggle between Durham and Duke than anything else. that need to wait until after the restrooms are upgraded. That falls under a sanitary/health issue that you would think the Durham County Dept of Health would want done.

[Inonehand]

and I have a mostly love/partial hate relationship with both. Honestly, I'd have to say this is the usual Duke arrogance that has held up this project. Some people in the Allen Building will NEVER learn...because they simply think they're always the smartest people in the room, even though that's been proven to be false many, many times.

[allenmurray]

IMO living near and working in and around Durham, Shammrogs description of Durham is fairly accurate and No, except for Duke, I don't think the good outweighs the bad when comparing to other cities in the US. Compared to areas of Outer Mongolia or Sudan or Mexico, you may have a point.[/I]

You could always move.

[DU82]

and I have a mostly love/partial hate relationship with both. Honestly, I'd have to say this is the usual Duke arrogance that has held up this project. Some people in the Allen Building will NEVER learn...because they simply think they're always the smartest people in the room, even though that's been proven to be false many, many times.

Obviously, from previous posts, I concur.

One comment on the Allen Building crowd, didn't we hear earlier this year that the renovations were already underway? Sure didn't look like it yesterday. Why couldn't they say that the plans have been submitted, and then later said that the improvements were under construction.

[DU82]

That was based on the fact that all that is being changed is inside the stadium. The entire "facility" is not being changed.

Later on when the make more whole scale facility upgrades them yes, i can see the fuss about sidewalks leading up to the stadium, but all that is being changed are the bathrooms and concessions which are accessible from the concourse.

I agree that access to the stadium is bad and changes really need to be made. however, this looks more like a power struggle between Durham and Duke than anything else. that need to wait until after the restrooms are upgraded. That falls under a sanitary/health issue that you would think the Durham County Dept of Health would want done.

No, it's a development/construction permit, not a health issue (they're bad, but not so far gone to be considered unhealthy, and that's only the bathrooms, not the concession stands, which are not in question of being sanitary as far as I can tell. Although I must admit I haven't noticed a sanitary rating hanging on the wall in the past.)

All businesses doing renovations need a building permit, and in some instances a development site plan approval. This includes Duke, and in particular includes these renovations. Regarding your comment, at what stage do the upgrades need to provide the access to the facility? All the other improvements planned are "inside the stadium" (broad definition, at least, of being inside the gates). It was these upgrades that came first, and Duke is now being required to bring the facility up to code. (This isn't maintenance or repair, these are new facilities for the stadium.)

Duke is very bad at following the regulations. As the Chronicle article mentioned, Duke tried to circumvent the process by submitting a pedestrian plan. A pedestrian plan that had no detail, nor any timetable associated with projects. That is not acceptable under Durham ordinances (nor would it be under just about any jurisdiction.) I doubt it meets the standards agreed to between the City and University last year, either, on development/zoning.

It's really Duke trying to bypass the process, and getting caught. Weren't we saying the same thing about two years ago on the flip side, that certain entities inside the city (and county) were bypassing the proper process? Both sides need to follow the proper processes. In this particular case, in my review, the City is following the process, Duke isn't.